THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN
SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO
ATTEMPT
HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL
FASHION.
801
I went thru SERE Summer of '60 Warner Springs. No waterboarding then. I
evaded and received a baloney sadwich for the effort. Spent a couple
hours in a box and was shoved around enough to get pissed. Froze my ass
off at night wrapped in a parachute. Somebody trapped a rabbit, but the
guards said it might be rabid, so they gave us two potatoes and an
onion for it. We made a stew and shared it between 51 guys! Very tasty
for a microsecond. Even with the baloney sandwich I lost 10 pounds for
the week. Just shows what you can do if you keep your mouth shut. I did
eat a prickly pear that took two days to peel. Ants taste like walnuts,
but it takes a couple days to pinch their heads off, to get a handful.
And then we went to Country Store in the bus. Everyone got a loaf of
bread and some baloney. Gained 5 pounds back in one sitting.
Larry "Hook" Miller 802
When I was first commissioned and went to MCAS Miami (VMA324-Col Ken
Reusser,most decorated Marine aviator from Oregon commanding) I would
see that adjutant or some other hack headed down the corridor with
papers and that "I'm looking for an E and E candidate" look and I would
head for the ready room and grab a clip board and head for the
skippers' office or some other official thing so he would find some
acey -deucy player and send him of to Pickle Meadows or some such
place--they never did get me but I did my year and a half in the Land
of the morning Calm--K-3 Pohang Dong--I always carried my .38 but it
was loaded with tracers for SAR (PS-I always go to the National
Cemetery here about Memorial day and stand aand salute Col Reussers'
headstone-he deserves it-2 NC and lots more)
Martin Johnson 803
I've been enjoying all the stories but I noticed that I may be one of
the few who "enjoyed" both the post Korean E&E and pre-Viet Nam
SERE.
Early in '54 while in VF-44 we held a two division strike in Banshees
on Ft. Bragg. Upon landing back at Jax several of us were picked up at
our A/C, loaded into an R4D and flown back up to Bragg where we were
turned over to the Army for the training. After one day of classroom
work a Sgt. marched us out into the field where we were taught survival
skills for several days. After a while we all were pretty rank but the
Sgt. crawled out of his tent every morning in clean, starched and
pressed fatigues. Never could figure out how they did it. After the
survival days we were loaded into trucks driven out into the swamps and
kicked out two at a time for E & E. Rule was if we got to the
safe house or weren't captured we didn't get into the prison camp. My
partner and I hid out in the swamp and moved very little each day so we
didn't get caught. In the face of an approaching hurricane a recall
went out and those who believed it got home a day early. Lcdr Dick
McAndrew didn't fall for the "ruse" so he didn't come in and was left
to wander the swamps for a couple of days until he ran across an Army
post in his filthy flight suit with no ID. He finally convinced the MPs
that he was legit so they hauled him to Norfolk and dumped him at
Airlant still in his flight suit.
February '68 was SERE school at Warner Springs.After training with the
Marines at Camp Pendelton, a whole different ball game, we were hauled
up into the hills on a cold, rainy day. It took less that two hours
after being dumped out before I was captured. Stripped of my flight
suit and made to crawl under barbed wire in the mud just to get into
the compound. We were given bunkers with a foot of cold water as
"shelter". I don't remember any food. Much of what others have reported
was the same but I remember the water treatment as having one of the
prisoners stuffed head first into a sewer pipe which was tilted up and
water poured in. I think this was punishment for some infraction. After
a day or two of this and all the other stuff we started to think this
wasn't a drill. Some of the younger kids had a pretty hard time and the
older guys tried to calm them down without much success. I came out of
interrogation with a busted ear drum when I flinched at a head slap. As
bad as it seemed I don't think it really could prepare you for what
really happened to the guys who got captured and imprisoned.
Between the two SERE was much more realistic but only a small sample of
the real thing.
Dick Bishop 804
My vacation at Warner Springs was in Dec. 1964 and there were several
things I will never forget. After a session in the "Box" I could not
stand up, legs nearly paralyzed. I have a vivid memory of the guard
slapping me in the butt with an M-1 rifle, forcing me to crawl to the
interrogation shack. I am glad I never got a good look at his face.
Plenty of physical abuse followed which some have said was great
preperation for what was about to happen after release from the
compound. I did not get to ride the bus back to San Diego. Another Navy
pilot friend had arranged for my release into his custody and he hauled
me off to Los Angeles where I was dunked in a tub of hot water and
several layers of skin scrubed off. Decked out in Dress Blues, six
Naval Officers, armed with swords, escorted me to a church alter where
I was married to my dear wife on December 12, 1964. The "Rosey Cheeks"
from Warner Springs made for great photos.
Wayne Skaggs 805
The article from Tony about Whitehouse brought back a flood of
memeories for me. I had the honor of following John Pirate Nichols as
the VF-62 LSO. I spent hundreds of hours waving our guys at Whtehouse
and it was a fantastic facilty for that purpose. Only a few short miles
north of Cecil it was easy to cycle pilots through on a tight schedule
and we gained a lot of great experience bouncing at Whitehouse. I was
newly married and my bride and I woud drive out to Whitehouse for night
FCLP's at all hours of the night. She would write my comments on each
pass in LSO shorthand and allow me to focus on the guyes in the
pattern. Now 47 years later we are still a tema.
There is no doubt that Whitehouse is the best FCLP field on the east
coast and perhaps the nation. The Navy must continue to hold it as
vital to our national security and the area around the field should
remain undeveloped to provide a somewhat realistic venue for night
FCLP, although there is no place on land as dark as the middle of the
ocean on an overcast night. I am pleased to see that this field, at
least, is counted as being valuable. Cecil should never have been
closed. It was the best Master jet Base in the nation.
Jim Brady 806
Chuck Tinke was CAG-20 when I was flying in the reserves in VA-205 in
Atlanta and a real hero to all of us. The last time I had seen him was
in about 1980 (?) was when he was escorting famous Mig-25
pilot/defector Viktor Belenko on a tour of US military bases. Running
into them at "Whitey's Fish Camp" the night before resulted in Viktor
giving his briefing the next day with a bit of a hangover. But, it was
one of the most compelling and entertaining briefings I had ever
attended. We didn't have any idea who he was the night before (still a
secret operation with bad guys still trying to kill him) but his being
with CAG Tinker was good enough for us. We learned the true story the
next day at the classified briefing in the VA-174 ready-room.
Last weekend, I was in Pensacola at the Naval Aviation Museum and
lucked into having Chuck Tinker as a tour-guide in the museum. Not
surprisingly, he gave a GREAT tour lasting about 90 minutes. When he
finished, I couldn't resist telling the group of tourists what a true
hero he was and pointed out the significance of the patch on his green
flight jacket with 1262 traps on it. I couldn't remember accurately
(and he wouldn't have told me if I'd asked) but I think I recalled that
he had an impressive number of combat missions. Anybody have a figure?
After the museum tour, I was privileged to accompany him to the flight
line and drink a few beers while watching the Blue's give a fantastic
Homecoming Airshow. Running into him was one of the highlights of my
trip to Pensacola. What a prince of a fellow he is!
Tom Brown
21 November 2010
P.S. Went to SERE in Brunswick in the summer of 1967 and didn't get any
waterboarding. When they finally captured me, they dumped me in an
icy-cold stream and made me do pushups with some asshole putting his
foot on my back. I also remember getting slapped a lot and getting
pushed through a sheetrock wall with (fake) blood squirting off my
head. A year later, my buddy Kenny Fields who was shot down on his
first mission was running through the jungles of Laos with a squad of
Laotians chasing him. He was finally rescued after 40 hours on the
ground with multiple CBU wounds. If you have not read his book "Rescue
of Streetcar 304" you are missing a heck of a good story. 807
Back in 1961 (I think) in VF-62, I launched from Cecil to Whitehouse
for night FCLP's. The plane had been over fueled so I had to burn down
prior to getting in the FCLP pattern. I decided to fly north of Jax.
for a little way then back to Whitehouse. After a few minutes I noticed
a large number of lights off my left wing and I started to thinking,
"what town is that, I don't remember any large town west of Jax.". The
RMI said I was heading north, then a glance to the stand-by compass
showed I was headed directly east. By then I was about 25 miles at sea.
Often wondered how I would have explained getting 'low state' if I had
continued much longer heading for Europe!
Bill Query 'Stretch' 808
One comment that I remember after the Hancock F-8/ USAF F-4 ACM flights
at Udorn came from an Air Force pilot who said that they had only had 3
tactics training flights in their squadrons before they went to SE
Asia. We knew more about ACM coming out of Beeville then they did going
into Vietnam
Litning Phelps 809
The CVA-19 studs were John Nichols and (IIRC) Merle Gorder with
wingmen. Pirate described some of the det in "On Yankee Station" and
said it was all he could do to keep his studs from being Crusader Level
Obnoxious to their hosts--and you know how bad THAT is! A one-star
gloomed, "We used to know this stuff but we lost the way." However,
obviously some of the remedial training caught on because one of the
Udorn squadrons bagged numerous MiGs. One of the pilots was Johny
Madden (3 kills) who I believe retired as a LTGEN. Pirate badly wanted
to go north but the blue suits would not permit it owing to the
different markings--somebody thought the USN gray paint could be
mistaken for a MiG, and applying the AF camouflage would've added X
hundred pounds.
Barrett Tillman 810
To round out the little known story of the F8 team at Udorn: When I was
CO of Hancock and we were scheduled for a short stay on Dixie Station,
Hutch Cooper, CTF-77, asked if I would send 4 F8's to Udorn to help the
Air Force out with some fighter tactics. He never told me whether it
was an Air Force request or if he volunteered the help, but the Air
Force knew they needed some help. So I sent the 4 to Udorn along with
some maintenance support. John Nichols was in charge and Boyd Repshear
was one of the pilots. I have forgotten who the other two were. It was
a very good exchange. The team was well received by the F4 group at
Udorn and the Air Force certainly benefited from the help. The team had
some good stories to tell when they got back to Hancock.
Jack Monger 811
During the making of the movie, 13 Days, there was a shot of a flight
line showing RF8A's prior to the first launch by the aviators on the
way to Cuba. These "RF8A's" started life as F8's that were sold to the
PI Air Force. After the volcano went off, these aircraft were totalled.
They were turned into fake RF8's by some artful metal benders where the
noses were modified to simulate the nose of an RF8. When you see the
skipper taxiing out, he actually was on a verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry long tow.
scott ruby 812 .
I had orders to VF-101 as an instructor in the early 70's after a VF-51
F-8 cruise on the Bonnie Dick. Go figure, the squadron was
transitioning from F-8's to F-4's in San Diego and George Melnyk from
VF-111 and I had orders to Oceana. We were the bastard children in the
VF-101 ready room for a while.
Cdr Sam Flynn (later a F-4 MiG killer) asked around the ready room if
anybody would be interested in a NASA study involving a new simulator
program at Langley. I volunteered. There were 3, sometimes 4 of us who
would fly double instructor hops in the AM, drive to Langley early PM,
and fly whatever test program NASA Langley wanted us to fly in their
twin-dome ACM simulator. I don't think we ever really knew what our
airplane was, or what the airplane we fought was. I recall Sam
mentioning the AF guys at Langley had turned NASA down for the project.
Our project lasted longer than three weeks.
It was quite realistic and you could literally get a year's worth of
ACM in an afternoon with the short engagements (I think three minutes).
The simulators would then be reset for the next visual head on fight.
We would swap cockpits after a while so all four of us would get
"stick" time. The computers that run the two simulators filled a huge
room, floor to ceiling, wall to wall.
I remember one heavy from NAVAIR getting in the cockpit and actually
grunting and groaning while fighting, even though we didn't really pull
an g's to speak of. If we wanted to, we could use g-suits and they
would fill with (computer generated) g-loading, just like the real
airplane. I don't think we used the g-suits after a while, too much
trouble.
The thought was to use simulator time to get a student prepped for ACM
by teaching the basics, then allowing them to complete the ACM portion
of training. Since I had never gone through the F-4 ACM syllabus (in
Key West at the time), I "volunteered" to be a test case. I went
through the ACM syllabus, did pretty well, talked big in a crowd and
finagled orders to be an ACM instructor in Key West. Sweet deal that
was.
Nothing ever became of the plan to use the NASA simulator for student
training, but the domed concept was a predecessor for the simulators in
use today. Probably now run on computers that fit on a desk top, not a
whole room.
Mike "Pnuts" Borich 813
In the '72 time frame I participated in a project with Langley where I
flew a fully instrumented F-4 vs a NASA instrumented T-38 through
scripted ACM maneuvers. We then tried to duplicate those maneuvers in
the twin dome simulator. This was an interesting project at the time. I
now marvel at where we have come from those early days to the
simulators of today.
Bill Bauer 814
PJ Said: "'Wild Bill' Evans took a bunch of F8Cs to Kuwait and kicked
everybodies asses in sight to win everything but a contract for LTV."
I can supply a bit of the beginning of the F8 to Kuwait story. VF-302
had retrograded from F8Js to F8Ks (remanufactured F8C) after
transferring our Js to fleet squadrons. We got a call early one
afternoon to deliver an aircraft to PAX River the following afternoon
to be flown to Kuwait within a couple more days.
With less than 24 hours to prepare, we selected an aircraft, made it
ready, hand picked about six of the best enlisted aircraft fixers to
make the trip, got them the required shots....and off they all went
before noon the following day. At Dallas they were joined by another F8
(don't remember which squadron) and another group of enlisted to round
out about a 12 man maintenance team.
The group continued on to PAX River where Bill Evans and, if memory
serves correctly, Tim Hubbard took the two F8s on to Kuwait. I think
Bill was serving on a staff (perhaps AirPac?), learned of the request
to demonstrate the F8 to Kuwait, and assigned himself the job. If I am
remembering correctly about Tim Hubbard being the other pilot, I
believe he was on the Air Wing 12 staff at the time.
It was a 2-3 week, can-do operation extraordinaire. All went
exceptionally well except, as PJ points out, the lack of a sale to
Kuwait.
Tom Corboy 815
I was a NASA Research Pilot at Langley for 14 years and spent many,
many hours at all hours of the day and night in the DMS from 1990 to
the early 2000's. The original domes came from Newport News
Shipbuilding and had been built to hold high pressure gas, hence the
thick steel walls. They were the world's first fighter domes if my
memory is correct. In the mid-1990s Langley made a major digital
upgrade to the visual projection system and computer generated displays
which led to a quantum leap in capability and realism. In the 1990s we
flew a number of vectored thrust programs developing the control laws
for NASA's High Angle of Attack Research Vehicle, a thrust vectored
F/A-18A. The real fun was in the helmet-mounted display research,
vectored thrust advanced "Sidewinders," and various "black" programs.
However, the most fun of all was fighting a computer flying the other
dome that could learn from each engagement. Each time you fought it, it
got smarter (sort of a "Terminator" deal). As you can imagine, at some
point it got smarter than the pilots. We ultimately had a simulated 360
degree aspect radar with a helmet mounted cuing system that allowed us
to "look" anywhere (straight down, through the cockpit panels, etc. and
"see" the adversary. That same display could show the exact trajectory
of 20 mm projectiles or heat seeking missiles in relation to the
predicted position of your adversary. As you put your helmet-mounted
sight on the enemy, the displays would immediately tell you if you had
the angles, energy, etc. for a shot. By that time it was all point and
shoot, and we learned if you pointed too soon, i.e., went post-stall at
the wrong time, you simply became a stationary dot in space with a huge
IR signature. It was pretty cool, however, to be at 60 degrees AOA and
simply point the "nose" anywhere you wanted as long as you remembered
that your flight path was 60 degrees "down" from your nose! We were
still using Navy pilots (preferred to Air Force pilots) in the late
1990s, but the DMS hasn't been used much in the past few years. When I
left Langley in 2004 the DMS was in flyable storage having barely been
spared from the bean counters' cutting torch. Glad to know it had a
rich F-8 heritage. Of course, the work in the DMS in the 90's was not
necessarily in the best interests of the pilots of the future. We all
came along at the right time. It won't be a fighter pilots's world in
30 years.
Rob "Moon" Rivers 816
Regarding Randy Kelso ltr regarding the LTV simulators. I have few
hundred hours in that simulator and I believe it was the first of that
type. Originally it was a box with only a forward view and artificial
presentations of the opponent if he was not within the forward field of
view. Later, it was developed into the dome configuration with the
opponent shown throughout the dome. It was originally for engineering
evaluation of various airplanes and variations in their performance in
air-to-air combat. I had flown various configurations of the F8, F4,
AV8, F5, F15, F14, MIG-17, MIG-15, and many others including some that
were never built. At the time, I kept making noises that it should be
developed into a pilot trainer. I envisioned the advantage we would
have if we could fight the order of battle before the actual event.
Toward the end of my "tour" there, LTV did get a contract with the AF
to use it for pilot training. I believe it was to teach defensive
tactics to A7 drivers. I am glad someone got on the stick and developed
a combat simulator as I firmly believe it will save lives.
George Clare 817
There is a story behind the F8 Accident film that many may not be aware.
Joe Barton, LTV put this film together in early 60s. I worked for Joe
and at one time had the duty of continuously updating the film.
At the request of Billy Phillips and Jack Snyder, Joe toured the F8
Squadrons and showed the film.
Many F8 Skippers at the time would not allow the film to be shown to
their Squadron pilots.
It is a scary film but it was the way it was..
If you knew Billy and Jack you knew that if you could not hack the
film, you could not hack REALITY!
I think that I turned that film over to the Safety Center in Norfolk
many moons ago.
And OH! By the way "Wild Bill " Evans and Tim Hubbard kicked the
Lightning's asses in Kuwait as well as everything else.
The over and under Lightnings were flown by British mercenaries, who
led fabulous lifestyles, I should have signed on!
One just made sure that you had a non Muslim carry your booze in a
little black carrying case, usually a Pakistani.
Back in Dallas it was a brown paper bag, way back when Candy bar was
the star performer at the Baker Hotel for the Test pilot visitors from
Pax River
Those were the days!
PJ Smith 818
Finally my 2 cents on which model was the best performer.
Gotta agree with Bob on the F-8J with the P-20A. Changed for
the MUCH better with the 420 and of the models so equipped the H had my
vote, especially without the radar bomb installed. That
aircraft, compared with the L model I flew was way faster and with the
increased power, turned pretty well. Then came the G model
with the 420- and the spin droops on the electric switch and slower
speed turning became a different ball game. Very close to
what you could do with an A-4 (that be TA-4 for me). Hey,
even the old J bird turned pretty well with the spin droops out. Hard
to not like the photo birds best when you wanted to go far.
Jim Alderink
aka Dink 819
In regards to best performer, there's one version that hasn't been
mentioned. The F8 was my main squeeze from 1958 thru 1981 with almost
3000 hrs (never earned the six gun) in all models from A to J including
the P version (flying adversary with Topgun). There's no such thing as
excess thrust in fighter pilot lingo but the K was as close to that
utopia against another F8 as it gets. My hazy memory thinks the K was a
C with a substantial upgraded engine. (maybe a 420?) The K was a great
hassle machine and held the edge or greater against other F8s.
The P made a great Mig 23 - curves almost identical until hitting the
number. Flew side-by-side comparisons, once-up-a-time, and looked like
twins in all areas until accelerating to mach 1 when that swing wing
thing quickly became a dot.
Jimmie Taylor aka Falcon 820
with any information you may have. Thanks.
ShipNumber
ShipName
ShipCallSign
11 USS
Intrepid
Atlas
14 USS
Ticonderoga
Panther
16 USS
Lexington
Spartan
19 USS
Hancock
Rampage
31 USS Bon Homme
Richard Rocket / '"Trustfund"
in 51
33 USS
Kearsarge
Wildcat
34 USS
Oriskany
Sea Lord/Child Play
36 USS
Antietam
Eskimo
38 USS
Shangri-La
All Star
41 USS
Midway
School Boy
42 USS Franklin D. Roosevelt Riptide
43 USS Coral
Sea
Mustang / 1950-51 (Med cruise) Barktree.
59 USS
Forrestal
Handbook / Bullhorn (1957/1959)
60 USS
Saratoga
Fairfield
61 USS
Ranger
Grey Eagle / Spitfire" 1960
62 USS
Independence
Gun Train
63 USS Kitty
Hawk
Pawtucket/Panther
64 USS
Constellation
War Chief
65 USS
Enterprise
Climax
66 USS
America
Courage
67 USS John F
Kennedy Eagle Cliff
68 USS Nimitz
R91 Charles de Gaulle
R98 Clemenceau
R99 Foch
Gary Williams
In the 1950's:
CVA-18 - Wasp; Call sign: Bloodshot
CVA-21 - Boxer; Call sign: Buzzsaw
Roger Sheets
Here's an update with most of the Nimitz class callsigns.
Nimitz/68
Old Salt
Eisenhower/69
Freedom
Vinson/70
Gold Eagle
T.
Roosevelt/71
Rough Rider/Big Stick
Lincoln/72
Union
Washington/73
Spirit of Freedom
Stennis/74
Courage (transferred from America/CV-66)
Truman/75
Lone Warrior
Reagan/76
Bush/77
821
I remember the many encounters with the F8K as spirited affairs. It was
as Jimmy Taylor remembers, probably the best performing F8. Reason
being, it had a lot less radar in the nose. That being said, I was in
an"H" model with no radar, thus a very light nose. WOW, would it turn.
Our radars were being removed and repaired by factory reps. The flight
schedule continued with the radar-less birds. We sure noticed the
difference when they came back with the radar installed. Can't remember
if ballast was required. The 420, and no radar was a thing to behold.
As I recall, the "K" might have had an improved engine over the "C",
but not the 420. In any event, the "K" and the "H" were excellent
performers, the "H" having the latest avionics and ECM gear. How bout
you Marines that flew the "K" in the reserves, got any comments?
My 2 cents,
Pat McGirl 822
Flew the F8K as well as most other F* types/mods. The K was a really
good performing machine bird; however, all of the U-Birds were great,
some were just a bit better than some of the others and I never met a
Crusader that I did not like, what's not to like? Don't be picky!
Bill Rice 823
RP on his Fam 1 F8 flight. He had not flown after flight
training for a month or so because of some problem-- so "not up to
speed" would fit this.
I had been briefed before the flight of this situation, so our Fam1
brief took this into account. Nothing dramatic on taxi and takeoff,
wingdown transition somewhat rough.On climb to altitude slow but
continuous nose oscillation ( I did a lot of trying to get him to trim
the nose and take his hands off the stick- not much progress on that).
Got to the part that called for a simulated landing pattern with 1000'
as ground. That day there was a thick haze that went up to about 5000',
so the ground was 5000'. (You could see down thru the haze).
We started our simulated pattern at 6500', did a Break, slowing, at
220kts gear came out, and at 200kts the LE droops went down and I saw
the wing start up---- the next second the F8 on its back, dirty, at
6000', going to vertical very quickly (He felt the stick move forward
during wing transition and jerked back on the stick ). Called him for
full power and as soon as he started to accel told him to SMOOTHLY pull
back on the stick- I kept calling smooth--smooth--smooth, he went way
over the wing up limit speed. Smoothest dirty F8 Split-S I ever saw
(and the only one)
Came back to Cecil, did a straight-in Dirty-up approach and landing.
Got to fuel pits, got out, and the RP says "Guess that was an unsat"--
had to agree with him. It was the only one I ever gave. John Nichols
took over for the repeat Fam1-- the grade sheet was not a pretty one.
The OPS Officer took over after that. The RP got thru the short course.
Shortly before this, the Left Coast had a similar incident, the A/C was
lost.
Bob
Davis
824
The "Lt Victor Buckley" mentioned as one of the photo guys who didn't
come back was known as" Pat" Buckley. This was on Hancock & we
were in VF-211. Forgot the VFP Det #. Pat was lost on Tue. 16 Dec.,
1969. He & Chris "Boomer" Wilson had just returned from a photo
mission and were on the tanker. Pat had just plugged (& had
lost his radio). Boomer then watched Pat clear the tanker &
drop back. Boomer then moved in for the plug. That's the last anybody
ever saw of Pat or his plane. Sad.
Rattler
Alex Rucker 825
Lt Joe Klugg. ...
Klugg was famous for his observation, while obviously under the
influence of prohibited alcoholic beverages, that a USO female
entertainer was not a very good impressionist of Sophie Tucker.
Joe wanted her to sing Melancholy Baby and so yelled it from midway aft
port side of HB1. She ignored him 3-4 times after asking for requests
from the audience.
Finally, she "I'm sorry but I don't know Melancholy Baby." Immediately
Joe hollered: "Then show us your tits." Needless to say this brought
down the house and much disturbed the Flag Staff in attendance.
Joe was hustled to his stateroom and to the best of my knowledge the
perpetrator of driving a non-talent from the stage in a very pissed-off
manner was never revealed to any senior officers.
Naturally they were probably busting up inside, too. The crew loved the
humor.
Maybe someone else from the cruise remembers this incident.
Bill Turlay 826
Jim Brady's mention of the hydraulic cats on the Antietam brought back
memories of my first cat shot as well. We were operating out of
Beeville Chase Field. The water in the gulf was rough and the LSO was
cautious causing many bolters. For my first shot, I remembered all the
briefings, throttle guard, head back, elbow in your gut etc. However,
the initial part of the shot was so hard that my feet came up off the
rudder pedals, my knees hit me in the face, and when my legs unfolded,
my boots were on the top of the glare shield. It was an inglorious way
to take off and I expected a hard time from all observers, but
apparently no one noticed but me. I was ready next time, but it was a
real thrill.
Don Ressel 827
I did a tour on Kearsarge with Hydraulic cats, 1957/58 VA 26, in F9F-8
Cougars.. When we launched with a Nuke Training weapon they had to use
the Max Catshot... It set your teeth back in your throat... During
build ups we were limited to 6 Cat shots a day. 5 too many !!!
Because the weapon was on the wing rack the starboard flap was
depressed about 2 Degrees. the Iron Works fix was a small iron block
attached to the fuselage that kept the flap from coming all the way up.
The trim could handle the off set with out the weapon on board.
Chuck Anderson 828
In August of 1971, the Saints of VC-13 were ordered to CARQUAL on WASP
flying A4C's. We were based in New Orleans, La. at the time and had
trimmed four squadrons down to two detachments of six pilots each,
anticipating the arrival of F8H's the next month. Arrival on the ship
was a first for me having been an USAF puke for 8 years. After parking
the a/c, I had to request a guide to take me the bridge to meet the
Captain. Luckily for me that "Stoney" Burke and "Gypsy" Goff were there
as LSO's to look after me. I was the OP's "O", so I had to rapidly
adjust to boat life. Since the chow hall was air conditioned, I camped
out in there to write the flying schedule, coordinate with Pri-Fly etc.
I soon learned the difference between brown and black shoes. One of
them constantly tried to remove me from the mess, saying that it wasn't
proper to use the space for op's matters and most importantly, your
flight suit is disgusting. I found that sharpening my survival knife at
the appropriate time solved the problem.
Flight OP's commenced the next day. WASP was on the back side of a
hurricane north of Bermuda. Winds were calm and one screw was inop.
With max boat speed, the A4's had to be downloaded to 4,000 lbs. of
fuel, no drops and no tanker capability. Since we were the only jets
that had been on the boat for a few years, we had to have a Pri-Fly
duty officer during all flight op's. At times during our short flights,
one bolter was allowed, then Bingo to JAX.
Since I was the newby, I was up for first launch. Min. wind over the
deck, one screw inop., hydraulic CAT loaded to max!
As some of you remember, the hyd. CAT had three power strokes. The
first stroke drove me down in my seat and put my knees in my face, The
second stroke rotated my helmet down over my eyes and the third stroke
gave me an instant headache. Ah, flying again! Next day, I had a launch
that tore the bridle away, I saw it disappear in front of me over the
cat track, but I had enough speed to fly without a splash and go.
On the last day aboard I found a "gunny" in the ship's magazine that
had some sidewinders he wanted to fire, so we got a flare ship, two
shooters and requested all hands on deck to watch a "winder" shoot. It
was spectacular. The flare was good and we got all three winders to hit
it about a half mile in front of WASP. Since we were only about 100
feet above the water, the last winder hit the flare at the water line
causing a great water event.
All in all a great time, but hyd. cats suck.
Pat McGirl 829
By the third cat shot,it was "Let 'er rip!" and a hell of a lot of
fun,but the first two left your brains back on the blast deflector.
Bill Quinn 830
Reading the stories of hydraulic cat shots etc I thought back to my
first look at the boat. We arrived over head Antietam in a flight of 5
F9s. Were we hot or what? Came from Beeville Aug 1960. Boat looked like
a postage stamp at 35,000.
If they had wanted me on deck the first two passes they would have had
to shoot me down I was so high. Did my touch and goes and two traps.
While waiting for my third shot I noticed the F9 in front of me calmly
landing in the drink. The cat officer just kept guiding me on the
shuttle. Hey does anyone see what just happened??? Very unfortunately
we lost a class mate that day. I was shut down and taken to the ward
room to get my nerves settled. They said of course you want to finish
up your landings? Me.....Before you shoot me off the same cat I want to
know everything there is to know. Now I am below decks and have no clue
sharp end from blunt end. Talk about lost. The powers that be informed
me he had plenty of end speed and for some unknown reason flew into the
water. I did finish up the qual and went to the beach. After that
experience I could care less about the force of the cats. The harder
the better as far as I was concerned.
Jim Gardner 831
Catapult info:
Wasp and others had the type H, Mark 8 hydropneumatic, flush deck
catapult.
Maximum Suttle End Speed - 105 knots
Maximum Load (dead weight) at 105 knots end speed
- 15,500 lbs
Maximum Launching Accumulator Operating Pressure -
3,500 psi
Average Acceleration (power run 3.25 G's) - 105
knots
Maximum Acceleration (power run, 105 knots) - 4.6
G's
Time of Power Stroke (105 knots) - 1.69 sec
Shuttle travel:
Launching Stroke - 150 ft
Brake Stroke (maximum) 40 ft
Overtravel - 8'
Total stroke (maximum) 198 ft
The Boxer had the H4B hydraulic catapults:
96' stoke, 18,000 lb A/C @ 78 knots
If you thought the H-8 cats were a boot in the butt, double that and
you have what we had on Boxer with Air Task Group One embarked in 1953
operating during the final months of Korea. In the F9F-2 "Panthers",
the cat shot, holding the throttle grip; elbow on your hip bone; head
rest tileted forward and head firmly planted; would cause you to grey
out to tunnel vision by the end of the stroke. End speed was marginal.
And settling off the bow was routine; settling to "ground effect" with
the jet blast leaving a wake was not uncommon. Aircraft would be loaded
with the ordnance called for on the Air Plan; the first aircraft
launched, and if there was an excessive period in ground effect, the
launch would be delayed; one piece of ordnance removed from each jet;
and the launch would resume. As an aside, it was uncanny how many times
the aircraft spotted on the first cat to be fired was assigned to one
of us Ensigns.
For the next deployment we moved to the Wasp (CVA-18) with the H-8
cats. We had cautioned the new pilots about the severity of the cat
shots, but when we were launched with the H-8 it felt gentle - didn't
even grey to tunnel vision. The new pilots didn't think the word gentle
fit into that conversation. My 166 cat shots from the H-4 & H-8
cats in F9F-2 "Panthers" were paired with a similar number of straight
deck, flat paddle landings on the other end of the boat.
Roger Sheets 832
Speaking of hyd cats. I never carrier qualified in the training command
as the training carrier was in the yard when my class was ready. So I
was sent on to advance at NAAS Millington and later to the fleet,
having skipped the exciting process of going aboard a carrier. After
spending a few months in VF-22 (F2-H) and VF-173 (FJ-3), I ended up in
VF-62. My first time to sight a carrier, (USS Essex--CVA-9), was from
the air in a FJ-3M at 20,000 ft. I AM GOING TO LAND ON THAT TINY THING?
First pass was a wave-off, next was a bolter and the third a trap. Next
came the hyd. cat shot and I regained my senses some where ahead of the
ship at 500 ft. Day and night quals followed and it took a week for my
back and neck to return to normal. Later I did a Med. cruise with VF-62
on the ol' Essex and had my share of cat shots. One memorable cat shot
I forgot to hold on to the throttle cat handle and as the cat fired, my
arm, hand and throttle came back to idle!! Of course I quickly
two-blocked it and the 'ol J-65 slowly accelerated and I recovered at
wave height, never to let that happen again. After that cruise I got to
move into the F-8 and my love of flying grew. After retiring from 26
years in a flying billet in the Navy I went on to commercial and later
corporate flying and fully retired in 2008 with 21,500 hours, in 26
different aircraft. It was a great experience and I still miss it.
Bill Query 833
To some of us the preflight dive/jump platform may have looked like 250
ft high (18 story bldg.) but. as I recall, it was about 25-30 feet , at
least in 1955. One of my most vivid memories of this event is that one
of our classmates decided to DOR from preflight rather than make the
jump. To him it probably looked like 500 ft.
Dave Winiker 834
As I recall the C Course was 1.5 miles and the max time you could spend
slogging thru the sand was 12.5 minutes. I was in Pensacola for a
reunion of our AOCS class last June and tried to find the course track
but evidently it's not used any more so it's sort of grown over. I
think for a PT badge you had to do it under 10. Also seem to recall we
had to swim one length of the pool underwater, don't remember if the
pool was 25 or 50 meters but probably 25. Tower was high enough that I
got a nosebleed.
[Hal] Dirt Bag Valeche 835 For me the underwater pool was a killer (it seemed like
100
meters)--I did everything great in pre-flight (Navcad 9-53) but that
underwater marathon almost killed me-and I was a good swimmer-but they
had a solution--when the rest of the class was done for the day and
drinking beer at the ACRAC (I wonder what that stood for)--I was back
at the pool swimming underwater--what an incentive--I finally made it
and in 20 years was lucky enough not to have to use it although I came
very close on a bad day over the Sushima Straits--I never thought I'd
be so happy to see Korea-(and not swim)
Marty Johnson
836
Tower was about the same height as carrier deck above water; not 250
feet. Good time on the O course was either just at one or two minutes,
can't remember.
Jay Miller 837
Speaking of swim tests: at least one Navy ace in WW II was unable to
swim, having taken the Morse Code test in exchange for a friend who was
a good swimmer. Each answered to the other's name at the respective
tests. Evidently it was a fairly common ploy. Nobody believed at the
time that many pilots would need to be able to send Morse, and of
course they were right. (Though as I recall from my First
Class Scout test, sending was much easier than receiving!)
Dad went thru Corpus in '43 and said that the swim portion involved
some tactical lessons. An instructor said, "The Japs like to strafe
downed fliers, so if you get six feet of saltwater overhead, you're
probably OK for .50 cal."
Barrett sends
Barrett Tillman
838
I contracted Polio in Beeville Texas in 1959 and after 6 weeks in the
hospital I was released back to flight status if I could pass the
flight physical.. Every thing went fine until the step test... The
polio had taken a toll on my right side and I knew I could not even get
up on the box with my right leg.. So I did the whole test with my left
leg and never looked back.
Chuck Anderson 839
I'd like to share a piece I published last month in Air Power History
about an F8 Crusader accident that happened almost 50 years ago. The
accident involved the loss of two VF-62 airplanes and one pilot, LTJG
Thomas J. Malloy.
Paul Gilchrist has written about this "famous" accident, and I believe
Ron Knott may have done so as well. My article about the accident is
called "Icarus Ascending" and may be accessed at:
Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to open the file:
http://get.adobe.com/reader/.
The article includes some very nice photos of F8s in action. One
picture captures an RF8A flying over a cloud-capped erupting volcano,
Mount Aetna in eastern Sicily. (A few years ago I hiked in
knee-deep snow up the north slope almost to the top of the mountain.)
LT Ron Datka was the plane's pilot. I shot the photo from another RF8A
off USS Enterprise during the 1963/64 "Second Great White Fleet"
round-the-world cruise.
The picture of the F8H division in echelon was shot at NAS Cecil Field
by LT Buzz Jewell with a hand-held 35mm during the 1968 Naval Air
Reserve call-up. (Buzz died not so long after in an infamous
and
much-publicized A4 accident out of NAS Alameda.) At the time,
the
F8H aircraft were assigned to Reserve Fighter Squadron VF-661 from Navy
Andrews, Washington D.C., CAPT (later ADM) Buz Warfield commanding. The
single F8H on the ground was shot by a VF-661 enlisted man whose name I
never knew.
After the call-up was precipitously cancelled in late summer, 1968, the
"brand new" F8Hs went I believe to VF13, whose men ended up on a quick
turn-around back to the Med on Shangri-La in Fall 1968 in place of
VF-661. (This fiasco has been hashed over previously in our online
Forum. All my respect to the regulars who bailed out the reservists and
indeed the entire U.S. Government on this glorious f***-up.)
I took the shot of the RF8A over NAAS Mayport with speed brake extended
from another photo bird in 1962. The shot of the RF8A off the starboard
beam of Forrestal is a VFP-62s file photo from the same period.
Those were the days ... And in my view we who remain are fortunate to
have survived a magnificent airplane that nevertheless killed so many
magnificent pilots. When skill runs out, luck makes a big difference.
Best, Rod Rogers 840
The reason VF-194 was "Red Flash" was really due to adopting our own
call sign "Lightning" in 1964 when we transitioned from VF-91 to
VF-194. We wanted to shed "Junegrass." The folks that maintain the
Allied Signal Book caught up with us and told us that "Lightning"
belonged to some tank outfit. They suggested other names and we took
"Red Flash" from one of those recommendations.
Al Lansdowne 841
Just as an aside. ... VF-141/53's call sign was previously "Yardley".
Some of you may recall this was an aftershave lotion of the time.
Our Skipper, Joe Foltz (WW-11 Ace) said ... That call sign has to go!
We tried to change it several times, but it turned out that the call
signs we submitted were all being used by other Service Units.
One
time it was being used by and Army tank unit. They finally gave us a
choice of several. We chose Firefighter ... much better than aftershave
lotion!
Larry (Hook) Miller 842
In response to Gary Williams' question "Was there both a VC-61 and
VCP-61?" the answer is yes. VC-61 was the squadron that provided most
of the F9F photo dets aboard CV's during the Korean war. After being
re-designated VFP-61 and later VCP-63 it became VFP-63. VCP-61 was the
earlier designator for Heavy Photo Squadron (VAP) 61. The designator
changes were mainly due to aircraft transfers, VCP-63 to VFP-63 for
example due to its A3D-2P photo birds going to VAP-61 and VAP-62.
Jerry Nolan 843
I was running TACAIR support on USS Blue Ridge during Frequent Wind
(Saigon Evac). I was TDY to CTF-76 (Alligators) so I had to wince when
I called Jehovah using the call sign "Perfume"
Jim Hamilton "Buster" 844 My recollection of the P'cola swim test was a standard
diving
platform at 10 meters (about 30 feet) and one length of the pool
underwater. One guy in my class was an expert diver, performing a swan
dive, tuck and flip on the way down from the 10 meter board. They made
him climb back up and just step off - feet first - as instructed.
Don't remember much about the obstacle course except that it looked
relatively short and easy until one began running in the deep loose
sand on a hot and humid afternoon. It rapidly became very challenging.
Tom Corboy
845
A couple of guys and I were up one the platform with my NavCad roomate
Steve Block. Steve had a fear of heights, and couldn't swim. How could
he have learned to swim, he was from Grand Marais, Michigan, on the
shore of Lake Superior!? Too cold to even wade in. Anyway, he said he'd
get as close to the edge as he could, then we should push him in. He
got about 3 feet from the edge and we pushed him in. The safety
swimmers pulled him out when he came sputerring to the surface. He
ended up in the pool every night for about 8 weeks, and finally passed
the tests. That was winter of 1953. The step for the step test then was
about 3 feet high, and you had to go for at least 50 minutes ! That's
the way I remember it, and so far I only have a mild case of CRS.
Bill Buc 846
My addled mind thinks the sea level limit was 800 kts. I saw 780 once
and it was like milking a mouse. Just to start the discussion, I saw
1.96 at 33,000 in a clean E. I'd love to hear what others have done.
VIC RILEY 847
Rod,
Read your article posted on the F-8 forum. Well written. Back on Rosie
(CVA-42) when you were in VFP-62 and I in VF-11, we were so young, we
didn't really know or care about the risks. I think my time in VF-11,
62-65 and 3 cruises, was unusual. We didn't lose a pilot and only one
airplane due to engine failure. That doesn't count the Spad that went
up the axial on a bolter and wiped out a few of our brand new F-8Es.
Let me know if my memory of a humorous (in retrospect) incident
involving you launching off the cat in a RF-8 is correct. Didn't you
attempt to relay to the cat officer that you had an off-center spot by
giving a straighten it out sign with you hand? The cat officer took
this as a salute and off you went oscillating down the cat on an off
center cat shot. With a pendant launch on the F-8, an off-center cat
shot could be interesting. I had a few myself and remember shoulders
banging off the canopy rail.
Glad to see you are passing on your experience to the next generation
of aviation professionals.
Best regards,
Darryl "Stubbie" Stubbs 848
I checked out myself in the F8 on June 1, 1967 without the benefit of a
RAG or chase pilot. I was the Assistant A/C Maintenance Officer at NAS
Dallas, first OinC of Nardet Miramar and CO of Nartu Andrews. So I was
involved with many of the Reserve F8 squadrons up to 1975, the year
before I retired. I took a great deal of pride in making sure there was
an aircraft ready to fly whenever a Reservist was scheduled. I often
flew Marine A/C mechs to Norfolk where we climbed the fence to scrounge
parts from wrecked F8's to keep our old F8A's up when there were no
parts for them in the system. I flew chase pilot for Lt. Buzz Warfield
checking him out in F4U's in a 1954 Reserve Squadron at NAF Anacostia,
DC. Thirteen years later I got to see him take off in a F8A at Andrews.
I have a high regard for the capabilities of the Reserve Pilot and
their dedication to the Navy. Below I am sending you a story you may or
may not of heard concerning how Nardet Miramar's Reserves got the job
of "Opposition Fighters" for TopGun graduating class. You may want to
use it in a future book.
When Nardet Miramar was formed, we had no hangar so when a fleet
squadron returned to base we often had to give up our spaces for the
fleet. We were treated rather coolly in the O' club and fleet squadrons
often laughed at our F8H as relics. Captain Gus Kinear had a CO's
conference every Monday morning. He held fast at the head of a long
table and the CO's of each unit were seated in order of seniority with
CDR Roger Box of TopGun next to Kinear and the OinC of Nardet (me) at
the very far end. Roger complained to the Base Skipper that he had no
F8's to oppose his graduating class as all of the fleet F8 units were
deployed on the Hancock and Oriskany. Gus said "Don't Schollian have
two squadrons of F8's?" Everyone but me and Gus laughed. Box said, "He
don't have enough availability to put up 16 flights a day and surely
could not get enough Reservists in to fly them on a weekday. And if he
could, are they really qualified for ACM"? They all laughed again.
Kinear asked me if we could support the graduating class of TopGun that
week and I told him we could. So at the appointed day I went to TopGun
ready room for initial brief. There on the blackboard, in multicolor
chalk, was a sign that read: "Today is the Day of the Great Reserve
Turkey Shoot." All of the sorties were outlined with TopGun pilots
names and A/C numbers in F4H's and the Reserve pilots with their F8's.
There were one on one and two on one's. Each sortie would check in the
ACM range over San Clemente and would be tracked by multiple radars.
When any A/C closed within lethal range on an opponent the Range would
score a kill and they would circle the winner on the TopGun board. At
the end of the first day it was 15 kills for the Reserves and one draw;
and they erased the board. The next day ended with TopGun not getting a
kill. The following Monday morning when I attended the CO's meeting, my
chair was next to Captain Kinear's and Roger had my old seat at the far
end of the table. He was walking around the back of the room with his
hand covering his ass. When asked what his problem was, he said:
"Didn't you hear, the Reserves carved me a new Ass." And everybody,
including me, laughed. I point out that we had over 15 combat veteran
pilots that had flown both the F4's and F8's and two had downed Migs. I
believe Guy Freeborn got one in an F4. From then on during my tour, the
Reserves flew against the TopGun grads, they also post-flight debriefed
them in their ready room and the Reserves were treated equal on
Miramar. Kinear went on to make Admiral and I was able to get a Hangar
built at Miramar dedicated to the Reserve Squadrons. Unfortunately I
made Captain, went to the Pentagon and that was the end of my F8 days.
I am now 81 and my memory might be waning, and some of what I wrote
might not be exact but the essential is true. Thanks again for the
memories. It was a great ride and I would do it again in a heartbeat.
Jim Schollian 849
The step test which, as I recall, was administered during the first
week of pre-flight in the indoctrination battalion back in June of
1960, lasted only a relatively short time, perhaps 5 minutes. The step
was not a step but a gym bench of about 24" in height. It, at first
glance, appeared to be something that you could do without to much
trouble, but most of my class 23-60 did not complete it. I was lucky to
complete it myself and I had been a college athlete just before coming
to pre-flight. It was a real challenge aerobically and a great test of
muscle endurance for you legs and back.
We had a gym instructor named Rudy Latimore (sp) who, as I recall, had
washed out of the program because of air sickness or something of that
nature. He was a real stud. About 6'4" and perhaps 210 lbs. He put us
through some tough training in the gym and on the obstacle course. Damn
glad he did, because flying the F8 was not for the faint of heart. I
loved it!
Jim Brady 850
Coming out of Hanoi one day after losing my wingman, Harlan Chapman, at
tree top level I saw 750 with the throttle bent around the horn and
thinking I was standing still. Was off the Oriskany in 65 with VMF (AW)
212.
Moose Lutes 851
I was in VMF 333 at Beaufort SC in 1967 and 68 after my tour in Viet
Nam.
VMF 333 during that period was transitioning to the F-4 and we had half
a dozen or so F-8s on the line mixed in with the newly arriving F-4s.
The career officers were focused on the F-4 which left the F-8s to
junior officers who were planning on returning to civilian life. We
were given lots of latitude in what we did while flying.
On one occasion I was alone in the warning area with nothing much to do
other than explore the edges of the flight envelope. I had taken to
making zoom climbs to see how high I could get. In this case, I was
well above 50,000' climbing in burner when the bullet proof screen
cracked (sounded like a rifle shot) and the already high cabin started
to go. I hadn't bothered with a pressure suit, being bullet proof and
invisible (23 year old Viet Nam vet with a 1000 hours in the Crusader
and all) but I did understand that blood boils at the pressures above
50,000.'
I got the nose pointed straight down ASAP, burner still going and held
my breath as I watched the altimeter unwind. Somewhere around 45,000' I
started to think I was going to be OK. Some moments after I noticed the
indicated airspeed peak at 840 kts. I am shaky on some of the details
of this story, but very clear about the 840 kts.
On my return, my yellow sheet simply stated: "bullet proof
screen
cracked" and "some skin peeled off upper surface of wing."
John Doherty 852
We had F8Js in VF-302 when the Avionics CPO came to me as Ops and asked
if there were some way to operationally exercise the chaff systems.
With no local operational boss to propound conventional wisdom, I dug
into the regulations. I found no Navy regs on the subject but did find
something in NORAD procedures. The only requirement was to notify NORAD
in Phoenix in advance via telephone of the time and location of the
drop. So....for about 3 months every dissimilar ACM hop in the offshore
warning area against either Topgun, the F4 RAG, or a fleet F4 squadron
featured the judicious use of chaff. We would punch out a couple of
bundles at about 12-16 miles during the initial engagement - about the
time the F4 RIOs would take control of the intercept - then do a
split-S and attack the F4s from below as they tried to figure out what
happened to their radar lock and intercept.
Nobody caught on until the day neither Dudley Moore (Hi Maggot) nor I
bothered to preflight the chaff control boxes in our wheel wells - you
may recall that the lid on the box was difficult to reinstall and pin
correctly. Well, don't you know, our chaff boxes were programmed to
salvo the entire 32 cartridges and we blanketed San Diego with a cloud
of chaff that couldn't be missed or mistaken for anything else. That
was a very interesting post-flight debrief (F4 RAG) with our salvation
being the calm announcement that we had been using chaff for several
months and it was about time someone figured it out.
Tom Corboy 853
VMF(AW) 235 remained in country flying the F8E in close air support
missions throughout South Vietnam,Laos and Rte Packs 1&2 in
North
Vietnam until just after the Pueblo incident. Around May of 1968, the
Squadron was reassigned (kicking and screaming) from DaNang to MCAF
Iwakuni. They took our F8E's and replaced them with Navy reject F8C's.
All of that summer was spent in air to air training with deployments to
Naha, Okinawa for live fire exercises. We were the only squadron in
residence at Iwakuni during that time, and that was a mighty good
thing! Around Sept. 1968, the squadron disbanded and was reconstituted
in Kaneohe Bay as an F4 squadron. Most of us who flew with 235 in
country were reassigned elsewhere. I believe that 235 was the last
active duty Marine squadron to fly the Crusader although it remained in
the Reserves for many years after.
Dave Lorenzo 854
For whatever reason, several of us did not hit the boat in Basic Flight
Training. We did all the FCLP work up at Site 6 or 5 on Eglin AFB
property but did not go to the boat in the T2J's. When in Advanced, one
day I was told, to make up for missing the opportunity of Boat work I
would be riding in the back seat with a Marine Instructor in an F9F-8T.
We were both stationed at Beeville, though this was the first time I
had ever met the man.
His briefing was short and sweet. "Strap in tight and keep your feet on
the floor, if I say get out, get out."
With the brief over with and our Charlie time getting closer, we
launched from Beeville and soon were out over the coast feet wet. I
believe we were a flight of four with ours the only aircraft with two
pilots aboard, and I recall we were the last in the formation as we
came up the starboard side of the ship. The break was uneventful, it
seemed like the water was closer than I had imagined it would be. On
down wind, with the flaps and gear extended, the Pilot slowed the
aircraft until we were in a mild stall buffet, said he was checking out
the A/A. I wasn't sure we weren't about ready to land in the water,
however; soon after passing abeam of the stern he started his turn, the
water looked even closer and we moved in and out of a mild stall
buffet. Soon we were lined up with the deck and I don't recall seeing
the meat ball from the rear
seat I was just mesmerized by what we were doing.
All of a sudden we were on the deck, had caught a wire which was
bringing us to the fastest stop I'd ever made in any type machine. With
out my feet on the rudder pedals, it felt like my entire bodies weight,
all one hundred sixty-five pounds of me, was being decelerated by two
testicles, being held solidly in place by the two leg straps of the
Martin Baker seat. I wished I had passed out, the pain went on for what
seemed like an eternity. As I was maneuvering around in the back seat,
trying to regain some sort of normalcy of feeling and posture, still
screaming I believe, we were taxiing to the starboard cat.
I was just settling down when the [Marine] in the forward part of the
aircraft asked me to check I believe the hydraulic pressure gauge which
for some unknown reason was in the back seat on the right console
completely to the rear of that panel. I was not sure when he first
asked what he wanted, and when the command came back a second time only
louder, I was having trouble clearly seeing the gauge because of the
tears still in my eyes. I finally made a call that it was 3000 psi,
only to have my head pined in that one hundred and twenty degree
attitude, knees coming up and into my chest as the cat stroked.
Without even asking permission, my feet were firmly planted on the
rudders during the next arrivals and I had them there for the cat shots
as well. No more sitting like a dummy I been briefed to be and I am to
this day not sure that is the reason we adopted our three great and
glorious kids. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Larie Clark 855
I was on a Migcap with B-12 about two thirds of the way from feet wet
to bullseye in '72, where we saw SAM's, but didn't have any fired at
us, but I think we were in the middle of a AAA trade show/ convention.
We got the "proceed feet wet" transmission, and B-12 firewalled it.
Coming out I saw 750 IAS at about 5,000' or so, and remembered how hot
the canopy felt, even with the A/C full up. Man that thing is
responsive with that much Q. I actually remembered to raise the leading
edge droops.
Bubba Meyers 856
While not at Sea Level, thank God, I probably qualified for some dumb
shit recognition with VF-33 aboard Enterprise in 1964.
Being the CVA(N) Airshow boat, I wound up leading things off with the
Sonic boom, a maneuver which I had prided myself in "improving" at each
outing.
This time, starting from about 45,000, I lit the burner, zero-G'd the
E-Bird into a vertical dive, and thought I'd delay pull-out a "bit", to
optimize the boom.
Exact details fail me now, but at about 10,000, I felt it was time to
start recovery and started to pull, but all the plane would do was roll
to the right; I glanced down and saw 850 kias disappear to the left and
figured I was at least 50 knots beyond it.
Obviously, I made it, but since I, by then, was taking a nap, the next
awareness was heading straight up.
At the debrief, CAG Jack Christiansen (The Big Coolie), quietly
commented that "...that was the best boom he'd ever seen/heard, and
don't ever goddamn do it again!"
Norm Gandia 857
Made 800 twice on the deck, one over a bridge in NVN escorting two
photo F8s and one in a home built outrunning an F16 chase. No F16
driver ever believed it. Checked the book after that one and I remember
it showing 790 something as max at SL definitely below 800 by a few.
Dudley Moore 858
Hey Tom, I remember the big chaff incident well ... seems the max dump
selector station is next to the 1 pkg posit. Two loads of chaff were
dumped together head on into the F4s, as the stuff drifted toward San
Diego it got like huge. Wiped out approach and departure radars for San
Diego, control lost. The stuff fell down all over the city, no sense of
humor at all, made the news big time. When the noise came our way it
was: chaff? What's that?, we know nothing. Guy Freeborn was first OinC
and Bill Kiper the first CO.
The reserves wiped the regular Navy every which way. During the 2 week
reserve test aboard USS Boat the Captain had to halt operations the
first day because both flight deck crews were worn out. No bolters.
When I left as CO in 82, all VF-302 pilots were former TOPGUN
instructors. All competition ceased to exist.
Dudley Moore 859
VMF(AW)-232 transpacd in F8Es from Kaneohe to Atsugi on 1 Sept 1966,
went on to Iwakuni, (with a side trip to Naha for some weapons work),
and then relieved VMF(AW)-235 at Danang in October.
As a side note, before we left Hawaii we had all new parts, spare
engines, PEBs, ordnance racks and related equipment surface transported
to Iwakuni in anticipation of our staging from there into Danang.
Charlie Kemac who was CO of MAG-15 at Iwakuni claimed the pack up for
his air group citing a contingency requirement for Korea. He told us to
pick up 235's gear when we arrived at Danang. Our CO, Nick Trapnell
refused saying with undeniable logic that 232 was going into combat
which should trump a contingency requirement MAG-15 might have. The
whole issue was brought before LtGen Krulack, then FMFPAC, with Col.
Kemac and Nick making their case in person back at Camp Smith. To my
undying astonishment Trapnell lost and we were forced to operate with
some very tired engine spares, racks and the like on our arrival in
MAG-11 at Danang.
We flew our F8Es back to California in September 1967 where they went
on to LTV to become whatever F8Es became in the conversion process.
Bruce Martin 860
John Doherty's missive concerning his F8 flight with 840 indicated
brought to mind a happening several years later when we were both
Northwest pilots. He was copilot and I sat side saddle as 2nd officer
on a 727 evening flight landing in Pittsburg. It was a charter flight,
and we had the Baltimore Colts on board to play the Steelers the next
day. As we taxied in, Ground Control came up and said, "We have Big
Mean Joe Green up here in the Tower just waiting for those Colts!"
Without any hesitation, John picked up the mike and replied in his
iconic way, "That may well be true, but we don't follow soccer that
closely." There was no further conversation from Ground.
Nick Nickerson 861
VMF334 was hoisted aboard the Oriskany in March 1962 for Quals. Things
did not go well as I recall. Spectacular ramp strike and ejection on
March 26 followed by another accident I think the next day. The only
"qual" I got was the Cat shot on the return to El Toro after the Navy
asked us to get off their boat.
Dave Hallett 862
'Twas the last day of our second at-sea period, first combat cruise for
me in 1968. I'd been shot at an missed #$%@ at and hit. Nice formation
fan break as the returning BARCAP. Down wind still going the speed of
heat, engaged the APC which brought the throttle back to idle - good
check of the system, right? A little long in the groove with the ball
on the top of the "mirror". In my ignorance, I was not aware that the
APC had brought the throttle back to physical idle and disengaged
(didn't the APC use a higher idle?). I held the ball on the top of the
mirror, then started slowly walking it down to the datum lights as I
allowed the jet to slow to the proper angle of attack. I realized (a
bit late, nugget) that the motor was at idle and not accelerating with
the help of the APC, so I jammed the throttle full forward about the
same time I got my first (of many) POWER calls. I do not remember
exactly how long it takes to accelerate the J-57 from idle to full
power, but I can tell you it takes FOREVER at the back of the boat.
Now, ask any instructor and he'll tell you you've got to lower the nose
when you are under powered and slow - okay, but when you see the ball
descend off the bottom of the mirror and you are closing on the ship at
really low altitude, you pull the pole back and hit the afterburner
(and pray). I pulled the nose up far enough that I could no longer see
the ship. Knowing the ship was still out in front of me, I elected to
gently step on the left rudder - good timing 'cause about then I looked
up to see the rear end of the boat sail by. Report from the LSO - yes,
I survived - was that I was sporting a good 60' rooster tail kicked up
by the blazing afterburner. Eeehaa.
Steve Russ 863
Just to add another speed thingy, I managed about 2.2 diving in burner
from about 40k with a C model. I am sure it wasn't well received below,
but was fun. Then at 30k I decided to try a loop. It quit fly just
before the top. I turned every thing lose and finally got it back under
control at about 20k. Never tried that again.
Duane Kalember 864
Recent discussion of some very fast F-8 speed runs – somebody
asked a day or so ago - about Mach No. at 845 knots @ 45,000 ft.
Re: Knots to Mach: 845 IAS @ 45,000 ft. Standard atmosphere;
Temperature (constant from about 35,000 to 65,000) is about
-70F; Mach 1 at that temp is about 573 knots.
845/573 =
about 1.47 Mach. One could make corrections for local conditions and/or
calibrations, but changes would be "lost in the noise." Somewhere just
touching 1.5 Mach should be good enough for bar talk.
Bill Brandel 865
I guess I will have to add my exciting high speed run. I had just
finished a intercept session with one of the support ships we worked
with in the Med. We would play CAP until the A4Ds and/or A3Ds were
returning from their practice bombing runs. They now became "enemy"
intruders and we got our practice intercepts. When the session was
over, the controller asked if I could make a fly by. I said clear it
with the skipper and get specifics, how close, how fast and how high.
He came back in a few minutes and said max speed on the deck close by.
I didn't need further instructions. I hit burner, dove over at 25k and
headed for the ship.
When I got back to the Indy, I was called to the CON and was chewed out
for breaking all of the windows on the port side of the destroyer. I
remember passing by so fast that I didn't even get to wave at the hands
on deck.
Fritz Meyer 866
I recall Skip Leonard telling me in the RAG in 1975 that he was blowing
out of NVN one day in 1972 or so in an RF-8G in the weeds with
something chasing him and looked down to see 770 KIAS---only problem,
the droops were still down. He left them alone and they didn't come
off. (Skip--am I close to being right on this?) At any rate,
in
1985 I did a SHB at Cecil during a Reserve CarQual at about 500 knots,
and the inboard right droop came off right as I started my roll. It
came within 6 feet of skewering the LSO truck headed to the
platform--got their attention I was told. I had to land at 170 or so to
stay out of too much buffet, but all ended well. I wonder if that was
Skip's airplane?
Rob "Moon" Rivers 867
As I remember, on speed runs we tried to fly right at the tropopause
where it's as cold and dense as as it's going to get. It doesn't do any
good to go higher because you get the same temp for less dense air and
less propulsive power out of the J-57. On speed runs, we'd go up to 45
K zero G over to get through high drag in the transonic region and
level off at the tropopause for that day at 1.2 or so and let'er run.
When we had the pressure suits, after we got to max Mach, we'd pull the
nose up 30 degrees and try to top out at about 200 knots IAS. If you
forgot to come out of burner, it was very possible to have a compressor
stall and flame out. When I did my zoom climb as a nugget I remember
seeing about 60K plus and a very dark blue sky. Came out of burner
late, but didn't flame out thank God. Did anybody out there ever
flame-out in the speed run zoom climb?? Like to hear that story!!
In order to get the fast badge at 1000 mph we would have to get it up
to 870 kts TAS or about 1.5 Mach. One interesting note is that when I
was a maintenance officer in an F-4J squadron and did speed runs with a
clean bird on post-maintenance check flights, I just barely made it to
1.5 before getting low on gas. Guess it was because of too much
parasite drag from all the ECM antennas added later or maybe I lost my
technique.
Remember as an IP in VF-174 chasing students on their speed run and
letting them know that I would blow on by and take the lead if I had a
better engine. On one, I blew on by the student and remember seeing
about 1.65 Mach.
Darryl "Specs" Stubbs 868
What was chasing me was two blue bandits and my escort had long since
departed in a SAM break on the way to the target around Hanoi. The
maintenance folks had just put a brand new paint job on it and I burned
the paint off the leading edges of many surfaces - Sorry to Worm who
was the Maintenance officer. I was real happy to see the two F-4s that
were vectored to intercept them as they passed over the top of me
headed toward the Migs who turned around and headed home. I figured Low
and fast was the best way out. I could not have gotten much lower but
faster would have been good.
Skip [Leonard] 869
I was assigned to PAR as a production F-8 and F-4 test pilot for two
years. Nearly every flight required a speed run. I flew all F-8 models
"A" through "G". In other words, the J-57's were original -P4A's F-8A
& F-8B, RF-8G, -P-16's F8C, and -P-20's F-8D & F-8E.
The
fastest F-8 that I flew was an F-8D at 1.95 IMN. Remembering that the
Yaw and Roll Stabilization amplifiers were Vacuum Tube devices, at 1.95
IMN, the aircraft was jittering very slightly in Yaw and Roll. There
was a reason for the speed limitationof roughly 1.85 IMN! With original
engines, Fighters were considerably faster at altitude, while the
Photos. because of the square nose and area ruling, were faster on the
deck. At that time, at altitude, Photos would run out from 1.45 - 1.65
IMN, and Fighters 1.70 - 1.85 IMN maximums.
I was also responsible for production test flights of F-4A's, F-4B's,
F-4C, & RF-4B's. We learned very quickly that exceeing 1.65 IMN
in
the F-4A was not a good idea, as the Intake Ramps did not very often
program smoothly, resulting in supersonic air going into the intakes.
The result of this, was one helluva bang and flames shooting out in
front of the aircraft abvout 40 feet. All other F-4 series could reach
2.15 IMN which often resulted in the Windscreen Overheat Lights
illumination. The RF-4B was the quickest to max speed, as the belly was
smooth, not having the missile cavities.
In any case, the procedure for a speed run, with both types, was as
described earlier. Light burner(s) at around 40,000 feet/.85 IMN a
gentle pushover to about 25-30 degrees nose down was accomplished. This
was so that most engine power was applied to acceleration, not lift.
Going no lower than 26,000 feet, as the air thickened and drag
dramatically increased from that point lower, one was headed up,
accelerating at about 1.25 - 1.6 IMN, and a rate of climb well in
excess of 4,000 fpm. When 40,000 feet was re-established, acceleration
was continued. The route was around 100 NM in length, Santa Barbara
Island, off LAX, to the Coronado Islands. At the end of the runs a zoom
climb, and a power reduction to idle was accomplished. Not having a "P"
Suit, I never exceeded 55,000 feet, and someone already indicated, the
sky gets darker up there. After all of the "Clean" test flight items
were accomplished, there was about 30 minutes of fuel left to
accomplish un-briefed ACM. It was an illuminating enjoyable time!
V/R, Roger Crim 870
In early 1961 our skipper, Jack Christiansen, led our squadron (VF32)
with our new F8U-2N's (F8D) to PAX River to participate in a flyover
for a special occasion (?) to impress some Russian Military Officers.
It was during a time called The Cold War. We were there for several
days. The flyover was finally cancelled because of weather.
When we departed PAX for the return flight to Cecil the weather was at
Take Off minimums. The skipper briefed 4 plane division take offs. I
was #2 on Jack's wing in our flight. Jack lined up our flight on the
end of the runway; then we were rolling. We broke ground, cleaned up
underneath the weather, then eased into the overcast.
The tops were at about 20,000'. Jack then signaled to light the burners
and we continued climbing out to about 40M, leveled out and remained in
burner. We cruised supersonic until beginning our descent to Cecil.
I don't remember the speed we reached in cruise. I do remember having
to modulate the burner to stay in position on the skipper's wing, and
that the shock wave from his aircraft affected the flight of mine.
The descent began almost over JAX in clear weather. The skipper made a
slow left descending turn out toward the sea to dissipate our speed,
then rolled out heading west toward Cecil at 500' and 550 knots. We
were in a finger tip formation.
I was on the skipper's left wing for the break. He broke me right over
the runway numbers. I knew he would break close behind me. I recall
having the throttle at idle, boards out, and pulling as many G's as I
could and not slowing down as fast I needed to. But I was not going to
look bad in front of the skipper! If I didn't land out of that break he
would …have my ass…a favorite expression of his!
I passed through the 180 still turning and pulling, throttle at idle,
boards out, still at about 300 knots and wondering if I could get the
F8 slowed enough to land. Didn't get the gear out and wing up until
past the 90. I rolled out on final and brought the throttle out of idle
at touchdown.
I don't recall what Mach speed we reached during cruise. Certainly we
did not set any maximum speed records. But we may have set a record
flight time from PAX to NZC. It didn't take long! What a great airplane!
Hall Martin 871
Really dumb idea.
I was the duty test pilot on a Friday at VF-194 while on shore rotation
at Miramar in early 1965. There was a quick test scheduled but the a/c
(F-8C) just did not become ready until it was time to go to Happy Hour
where I wanted to be. It was a simple test in which you climbed to
45,000 feet and stabilized at idle and then advanced throttle to 100%
and timed the spool up. Easy! I was in a hurry. Scamp departure and
full burner climb which ended up near the west end of Catalina Island.
After the test, I decided to do a speed run back down toward San Diego
parallel to shore and over ten miles offshore. This is the pattern
VF-124 used for the 1,000 mph qualification. I made a very gentle
descent from 45,000 to just above 36,000 (bottom of trop) which was
what we had done in the Rag but usually in a F-8E. At the end of the
run and getting closer to Mexican border, I had attained 600 indicated
and slightly over 1.7 Mach (also 1,000 mph).
This is where very amateur reasoning took over. Since we were not
supposed to boom the coast, the normal procedure would have been to
break to the right while decelerating and send the boom offshore. My
thought was that I would still be supersonic as the a/c completed the
turn back toward the coast (no thought of just reversing back and forth
while westbound). So, with this amount of airspeed, I thought I could
just do a loop. Really bad idea. I started my pull up which was awesome
because of the supersonic aerodynamics. I got vertical or very near
vertical when I realized this was really not a very good idea. I
remembered to slowly bring back the burner, disengage and then slowly
retard the throttle to idle. I was really scared that the engine might
quit due to compressor stall at that altitude. I never got the nose
around and the a/c continued to climb. The altimeter reached 67,500
feet after the a/c started to nose over, such was the delay in the
spinning needle. I remember that the edges of the earth were actually
darkened like some of the space photos. I did not notice the airspeed.
As the nose came down to near vertical I put the cruise droops back out
but went supersonic again (at idle) and retracted them. I oriented that
pullout to the west and flew back to NKX. I made it to Happy Hour and
made my second mistake of the day. I told my skipper, Billy Phillips,
what I had done. While relating the details I realized I was probably
going to be in some kind of hack for exposing myself without a pressure
suit and endangering one of his airplanes. Actually, his comment was
"Did you learn anything?" I have heard lots of F-8 drivers rag on him
over the years but he was one hell of a man and friend in my life over
many years.
Al Lansdowne 872
A "Big Coolie" as CAG Story.
Whenever CAG got a foul deck wave off, he would often light burner
abeam the LSO platform, a sort of "finger" gesture to the LSO's.
Invariably, the burner wave off generated an angry call from the bridge
demanding "Who was the pilot that made a burner wave-off?"
Almost always the answer was the same, "It was CAG, Sir". Now one day,
CAG's regular wingman, Ltjg Al Wright, gets a foul deck wave off and
smartly lights burner close abeam the platform. The same angry query
from bridge comes to the platform and gets the answer "It was Ltjg
Wright, Sir". The Captain responds with "You send Ltjg Wright to the
Bridge as soon as he gets out of his airplane".
Needless to say: (1) That was Al's last burner wave off and (2) CAG did
not accompany Ltjg Wright to the Bridge.
Bill Catlett 873
After reading the various stories on F8 speed runs, I recall VMF-333
receiving F8C's in late 1959 or early 1960 after giving up FJ3's. That
was a revelation in itself going from the slowest to the fastest. We
were the first Marine F8C squadron and the birds arrived brand new
without rails and clean as a whistle. These were the original go fast
Crusaders. It was not unusual to clock over Mach 1.9 and I remember
seeing 1.96. Even with rails, they pushed 1.90 pretty easily. Having
flown the F8A, C, and D, I found the C the fastest. What a plane.
Don Treichler 874
When I was finishing up my tour as cat officer on the Enterprise, Ray
Dunkin gets ahold of me and offers me a job as OINC of the Midway det.
I check into 124 around March/April 1970, and informed that becaue of
aircraft availability, I probably will not start until sometime in the
summer - that sucks. I go see Ray, and ask him if he will loan me an
RF8 to get through the syllabus earlier. Sure. So I get started
earlier, and we get to the flight where we make the speed run. Now the
RF8G had an engine desiganted the P22 - turns out it is nothing more
then a P4A redesignated. However, when the SLEP program was completed
converting the RF8A to the RF8G, they added 1,700 pounds of weight. No
more thrust - that sucks. Max trap wieght dropped from 4,200 pounds to
2,500 pounds. -We fly the speed run as briefed, and the most I could
get out of it was 1.3. THe chase pilot says, is that all you have?
First time I became aware of the real difference between the A and the
G. He goes roaring past me. The G was limited to a max speed of 1.55.
The square nose caused the aircaft to sort of bounce a lot, vibration,
etc. And the stabs were not that reliable. During the 1971 deployment,
it was not uncommon to fly with at least one of the stab systems out.
In basic engine at low altitude, it was hard to get 600 knots out of
it. I never had the pleasure of flying the RF8G when they put the P420
engines in them. I am told it went like a bat out of hell.
Scott Ruby 875
Now, coming back from Barcap, hitting the break at 550 kts plus, in
blue angel parade, level with vulture's row, clipping off the LSO
platform, 30 degrees off the BRC, pitch up fan, hopefully getting on
speed by the middle, two OK three wires--now we're talking!!
Bubba Meyers 876
VMF 334 did a shakedown cruise on the Big "O". It was supposed to last
for six weeks after the installation of a NTDS and a new mirror +++,
and prior to a West Pac cruise with VMF 232 out of Kaneohe. We sailed
out of North Island in March, 1962. I was line officer and not in the
first division to launch. I had a good view of what occurred.
PriFly announced "launch the Marines". Division leader "Brown Bar"
Barry Bertram and his wingman, our XO, Maj. Dick Haynes were launched
into a 250' ragged overcast and a rough sea. Bertram attempted the
first pass with hook up. He hit the ramp forward of the main gear, got
a burner light, sparked down the deck and up into the overcast,
immediately pitching down to the Pacific Ocean. Barry followed shortly
after - chute horizontal. Maj. Haynes was told to land with hook down
and he hit the ramp in an exact repeat of Barry. Two passes - two ramp
strikes - both alpha damage.
My first flight was April 1st, 1962 and the last logbook entry was May
21. I think only eight of us qualified in the Crusader. The Navy was
very happy to see these Marines hit the beach!
Bill Juvonen, 877
Tim Skinner came to VF-62 before the '69 Med cruise, and the brief
account of his accident on Shangri-La is accurate. I was waving that
recovery...Tim made a decent pass, an OK 2 or 3 as I recall. Right
after I turned my head to pick up the next bird on final we heard a
loud bang, and all turned back around to look up the flight deck...and
saw Tim headed up the axial deck in afterburner. For a few really bad
seconds I was afraid he was going to go into the pack up on the bow,
but he he steered back toward the crotch and dropped over the side just
off the angle deck.
The airplane came floating back down the port side awash but upright,
and Tim was moving like he was dazed but trying to find the Koch
fittings. As the airplane started to sink and he wasn't egressing, we
started making 'Pull the face curtain' gestures, but it went down off
the port quarter before he could get out. Not pretty....
As I recall, Trees Morgenfeld chaired the AIB and with the airplane
gone, all we could surmise is that Tim accidentally went into burner as
he was twisting and turning to fold the wings while shoving the power
up to taxi out of the arresting gear.
Joe Chronic 878
Pulling Tim Skinner's name and tragic accident out of my memory bank
recently also brought to mind a more pleasant and much lighter sea
story from that time period. When the reserves were summarily
deactivated and our dreams of them replacing VF-13 and 62 on the next
CVA-38 9-month Med cruise were shattered, my Pre-Flight classmate,
Boomer squadron mate, and Shang roommate Snake Allsup grabbed what was
to be a short cross-country back home to St. Louis shortly before we
were to start workups to go back to sea. Unfortunately, when it came
time to return to NAS Cecil his airplane's electrical system shot craps
and repeated efforts over several days by the MOANG techs to decipher
the workings of an F-8 were futile.
Meantime, the squadron had moved over to Mayport preparatory to moving
aboard and Tim Skinner had just recently reported. So I was taking him
on a local area fam under a high, thick overcast, which was
uneventful... until a disembodied voice came up on squadron tactical
and the following (approximate) conversation took place:
Voice: "Joe, is that you?"
Me: "Uhhh, yes."
Voice: "Hey, it's Allsup. I'm on top of these clouds at about 35,000'
on the RAT. Can you come up and get me?"
Me: "OK. Where are you?"
Voice: " Not sure, no Tacan, think I'm somewhere along the coast
between Savannah and Jax."
Me: (To myself: "Jesus Christ, Snake!) "OK, orbit where you are and
I'll try and find you."
I brought Tim within visual of Mayport and sent him back in, got a good
UHF/DF cut on my wayward roommate, augured up through the clouds, soon
found him about where he thought he was, and brought him back to Earth.
The heavies had been getting a little testy about one of airplanes
being AWOL so close to lift aboard/fly aboard, so Snake showed some JO
initiative by blasting off and coming back via dead-reckoning and
VFR... WAY on top!!
Jose' Chronic 879
Here are my recollections regarding the "VFR on top" story, and I'll
try to make it brief.
When I first attempted to depart STL, the aircraft wouldn't take on
fuel. We eventually wound up with a maintenance crew armed with a few
parts flying all the way from Cecil to fix the damn thing. That was an
all day affair, flying in some old 80 kt transport. When they finished
with the repair, and the aircraft taking on fuel properly, I thanked
them and sent them on their way back to Cecil. Hindsight being what it
is, I shouldn't have let them go until I was airborne.
By the time I'm ready to go, it's well after dark. I re-file my flight
plan and crank it up. I notice the gyro horizon slow to erect itself,
showing 10 degrees left bank as I leave the ramp. Hell, I guess I can
put up with that. By the time I reach the departure end of the runway
I'm showing a full 30 degrees left bank, its totally black, 500 feet
overcast and snowing. Bullshit. I'm not that damn stupid, at least not
quite. I taxi back to the Guard ramp (where they're not particularly
thrilled to see me) and call back to Cecil. My XO is infuriated,
absolutely convinced that I'm on a boondoggle, that I found a hot lttle
honey and wanted another night with her. He was apparently convinced.
I grab a room at the ANG BOQ, hoping for a VFR departure the next
morning. I wasn't about to ask for another maintenance crew to be flown
back up to STL, especially since the old Shang was preparing to go to
sea.
I'll make this as brief as I can. A hundred or so miles out I lose my
TACAN.
OK, I'll make do with ADF.
Another few minutes I lose the ADF.
Another 50 miles or so I lose my RMI.
Meanwhile, the enroute weather is not quite as advertised, and I'm
flying whatever altitudes were necessary. Remember, by this time I'm
needle/ball and wet compass.
The rest is basically as Joe remembered, though I don't specifically
remember having the RAT out, but I probably did. I also remember having
to watch my fuel gauge go down (it still worked) while we circled
Mayport a few times. Someone had blown a tire, and the single runway
was closed while they cleared it of debris. I remember being damn close
to opening the runway myself when they took care of it.
When I shut down, extremely relieved, a squadron LCDR crawled up the
side of the aircraft and told me "The XO is really pissed. He's going
to have your ass." I don't recall my response precisely, but it wasn't
particularly respectful.
The way I figured it, I wasn't sure whether I deserved a court martial
or a medal for getting that piece of crap home in time to load aboard
ship, but I most certainly didn't deserve criticism for not getting it
back sooner. That really torqued me.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
John Allsup
880
VU-2 at Gtmo. While there in 59 and 60 flew the FJ, F8 and JD (O L D
AAF A-26). My check out in JD (one set of controls) was two flights and
two landings. First night flight was a cross country to the Coast Guard
field at San Juan, P. R. Short runway, no prop reverse and touchy
brakes resulted in one go-around and at last a final. My passenger, a
black shoe Capt, got out and kissed the ground!! He had listened on
intercom how I got lost half way there, then couldn't find the field
until my E-6 right seater, informed me it was 20 degrees left of the
rum factory smoke stack. Only a Navy white hat would have known that
important piece of information.
Bill Query 881
In '69 I had a VFR on top I'll never forget. As a nugget on Tico, we
were sailing west for the Gulf. The WX was terrible and I "lucked" out
and won the Bear intercept launch. While sitting on the cat in a
Westpac storm, JP O'Neil (CAG LSO) came up to my plane, beat on the
canopy so I would open it and yelled to me, "Sam, the weather's too bad
and the deck's pitching too much to recover you. The duty tanker will
launch right after you. Tank after the intercept and the both of you go
to Naha and we'll get you back tomorrow." I launched with a signal
"Buster" and went after the Bear with the duty 35mm camera to take
pics. About 30-40 miles out, going as fast as the "J" would go, Panther
called, "Superheat, max conserve." Didn't make much sense to me, but as
I was decelerating I got another call, "Superheat, what's your state?"
I called back with my fuel. Then I got a "Standby" that lasted forever,
followed by another request for my state. Finally, our Ops O got on the
mike and told me the duty tanker was down and they figured I had enough
fuel to complete the intercept at max range speed and then bingo to
Naha, if I did it just right. I was on top of the weather. I met the
Bear, took the pics and got pigeons to Naha. About 5 minutes later I
had a complete electrical failure. I couldn't drop the RAT because it
decreased bingo range by about 20% and I wouldn't make it. So, I
motored on using the clock and wet compass thinking there would be a
hole to get into Naha. When I figured I was overhead, there was nothing
but clouds under me and the low fuel light had been on for several
minutes. I got out my PRC radio, plugged it into my helmet with a
makeshift adapter I scratchbuilt and called for anyone that could help.
I got a reply from the Marines at Kadena. He asked me to fly a triangle
pattern for ID and I did. He said he would vector me into Naha and I
told him I would be listening but couldn't fly an approach and talk
much on the PRC at the same time. Going IFR in heavy clouds and rain at
about 25K with a wet compass and peanut gyro, he called out vectors and
target altitudes. I remember seeing 200 pounds remaining and the
warning we were told that the gauge wasn't accurate within 200 pounds.
Around angels 5, my Marine said I would lose his transmissions as I
descended below the mountain ridges on the approach to Naha. I lost him
around angels 3 and I motored on straight ahead on the last heading he
gave me descending as close to 500 fpm as I could. I remember seeing
the fuel gage pegged at zero, but I was warm and dry and the motor was
still running, so I stayed put. At about a half mile, still clean, I
broke out of the clouds in heavy rain and the runway was straight ahead
in front of me, mountain ridge on the right, don't remember looking to
the left. I dropped the gear, raised the wing, landed NORDO, flamed out
on the runway and rolled to a stop. Tower called me on Guard on the PRC
and sent a tug to pull me to the transient line. Naha fixed the
Crusader and I went back out to Tico the next day. That was my first
non-training mission and I thought long and hard about "Is this what
it's really like?" Most days were better.
Sam Marinshaw 882
To Sam Marinshaw,
Magnum kudos to you bud. I was sweating bullets just reading your
story. If you had deployed the RAT, ejection city. PRC radio hookup, DR
nav, wet compass, peanut gyro, etc. Awesome job. As we all say, a great
pilot is not the one who can squeak on a smooth landing, it's the one
who reacts like you did in adverse situations.
Congrats, well done.
Chip Track/Bubba Meyer 883
On the F8U-3, Vought tested two of them, and some of the work was done
at Edwards, I think the high speed runs. They claimed they were out to
Mach 2.6 and I can believe that. I don't think they stayed there very
long, because of the canopy. There were two airplanes that they were
testing. When we, at Langley, became involved, the airplanes were back
in Texas and both of them were flown to Langley by John Conrad, the
Vought Chief Pilot. There were no handbooks and John brought along his
notes and held a short ground school for Bill Alford and myself. Then
Bill and I both flew a check out flight, with John on the radio, in
case we had any questions. NASA decided to fly only one, the other was
put in the Hangar as a back up and spare parts bird.
About half-way through our sonic boom tests, Bill Alford was sent to
England to fly and evaluate a British Naval fighter, the Blackburn 39.
I then got all the test flights in the F8U-3. As I noted, every flight
was an experience and eye opener on what this airplane could do. One
day, I was a little busy in the cockpit on a after burner climb to
altitude and the airplane went supersonic in the climb----Lots of power.
I can remember today, as if it was almost yesterday, I finished a
fiight with several good supersonic runs through the test area. After
getting out of the pressure suit and showering, I took the steps two at
a time up to the pilot's office and was again, sort of "bubbling" about
flying the Super Crusader. Almost at once, I noticed the pilots in the
office were very quiet and not sharing my exuberance. When I ask what
was going on, they told me Bill Alford had been killed in England in
the Blackburn-39. I don't think I ever went from such a "High" to such
a "Low" in a short time. Bill was a fine test pilot, an ex-Navy pilot.
A "collector" of aircraft pictures and books, sent me a painting of the
F8U-3. He told me he had read my book and noted that I had flown it. I
will send you a picture of it later. I have it framed and hanging in my
Den, Office, spare bedroom----all the same room.
The best to you. I seem to be bringing up old stories of the past---a
sure sign of age.
Jake M.
884
Having been on the two cruises on the Midway before she was SLEPed, and
the first cruise after the SLEP, there are two answers. Prior to to the
SLEP, the Midway had four wires, number three was the target wire.
After the update, the Midway had three wires. The target wire was the
number two wire.
The 1963-1964 deployment on the Midway was a disaster. I think there
were 26 AAR's. including one of mine. The aft expansion joint was
between the number 3 and number 4 wires. There was about a two inch lip
between the area aft of the expansion joint and the area forward of the
expansion joint. In effect, the flight deck aft of the expansion joint
had settled two inches. If you were a tad high, and landed just right,
you would get the full main gear compression and then hit the
mini-wall. Spads taxiied over it, F4's blew tires, A4's blew tires.
Crusaders blew main mounts. I believe mine was the fourth Crusader to
blow a main mount. Fortunately, I caught a wire that evening, and
stayed onboard. Came to a halt on the starboard main, noses gear, and
wingtip. The boat refused to admit anything was wrong with the boat. We
were able to identify my tire marks. Going up to the expansion joint,
the tire marks were perferctly straight. After the expansion joint, the
tire marks started an S-turn pattern. They were finally convinced there
was something wrong. The fix was to insert a steel ramp aft of the
expansion joint. No problems after that.
Scott Ruby 885
During the summer 1964 the Navy decided to put on an airshow for a Navy
League conference in Dallas TX. The plan was to have an air strike on
Love field that started on a carrier on the West coast, Simulate a
bombing attack on Love field and then land on an East coast carrier.
There would be lots of inflight refueling along the way.
Our photo Detachment of four RF8A photo planes (VFP-63) was to take
lots of air to air pictures from launch, the trip to Love field and the
strike. A few designated aircraft would land at Love and be part of a
static display, including our four photo birds.
It did not go as planned!
The weather over Love field got progressively worse as the flight
headed east. It was soon obvious that a VFR approach to the field was
out of the question. ATC gave us all holding altitudes while we were
assigned approach times. As I recall the weather was bout 1500 feet 4-5
miles visibility, light rain with solid clouds up to 30,000 feet.
Sections were let down at 5 minute intervals to make a pass and climb
back up and head East or land. I let down just after the second
section. I broke out over the field to find out an RA5C had slid off of
the side of the runway and I was waved off. The ground crew was setting
off explosions to mimic the bombing. They must have thought I was a
strike aircraft because as I flew down the runway a big fireball went
off. The first Attack Photo plane had just arrived. The tower asked me
to hold VFR until they could clear the field. There was new 1500 foot
plus tower not far from the South end of the field that I did not want
to go near. I found a small civilian airfield with about a 3,000 foot
runway. I circled this to keep myself orientated. After about two trips
around the field a loud, excited voice came off the Guard channel "Navy
aircraft circling a small airfield, do not land the runway is too
short!!!" I said "OK".
I was finally cleared to enter the pattern and landed. Some of the
aircraft never did let down and went on to the East coast. I never met
or saw any Navy leaguers!!!
Just another day in Naval aviation !!!
Chuck Anderson 886
The F-8 used a pendant rather than a bridle. It had a loop at one end
to go around the shuttle and at the other end was a solid metal double
hook which went over a cross bar recessed on the centerline of the
fuselage about 10 ft behind the nose wheel. It was a little difficult
to hook up because of the arrangement. The aircraft had to be very
close to on centerline of the cat in order to hook up. Once the cat was
fired, the Sader took a great cat shot, no rotation required (except
may be at night).
Chuck Klusmann 887
If my memory serves me correctly, there was a keel pin that ran athwart
ships on the the Crusader roughly amid ship. The deck crew would slide
under the airplane just forward of the MLG to hook it up. Because of
the arrangement, we put our XO in the water over the side on a cat
launch while in a hard turn. The bridle slipped off the pin part way
(early) through the stroke and the a/c danced over the side, losing the
wing as it rolled over the side. Fortunately, the XO, Jack Davis, with
a cool head survived. This was around 60 or 61 during a NATO cruise if
my memory serves me correctly. The event was almost duplicated a few
days later when another attempt was made to launch in a turn. This
time, the pilot, Johny Fowlkes, managed to brake the airplane to a stop
on deck as he was on the upside CAT which gave him a little more
manuvering room to get it stopped. He was also very primed for this to
happen after the XO's episode. Needless to say, there were no more
attempts to launch in a turn.
Al Wattay 888
All of the correspondence about F8 hook ups, bridles and cat shots
reminded me about one that I got during WesPac cruise with CAG 14
aboard Lexington, 61-62. Maybe I was shot off off center, or maybe it
was that close aboard snappy clearing turn off the pointy end, but the
bridle took off one of the starboard main gear doors on my machine.
Didn`t bother me none, I was 23 years old and bullet proof!
Cliff Judkins 889
Thank you for clarifying that the catapult pendant attached BEHIND the
nose gear because that explains when the pendant claw on mine broke on
the waist cat shot (angle deck catapult) the pendant was still attached
to the shuttle and when it went by the nose gear it broke the hydraulic
lines and my nose gear steering. One of several things I tried but
failed, was to steer the F8 up the axial deck and maybe get it stopped
before going over the side. Hope springs eternal----- even tried going
into burner but after having retarded the throttle to idle you needed
87 1/2 percent for the burner to light. When me and my wounded bird
left the edge of the deck I only had about 78 percent but enough to
throw turbine blades up onto the flight deck when we hit the water and
everything came apart. A couple of years later and I would have had the
new zero zero ejection seat and an underwater capable oxygen regulator.
Hank Smith 890
We were on Cat 3, USS America, day launch, F-4. A/B's lit, cat officer
touched the deck, and an instant before the cat fired, the holdback
broke. I knew what had happened right away, but away we went. The
bridle had slipped down on the cat hook far enough for the stress to
finally bend the hook, and the bridle whipped off, cutting the heads
off of the two Sidewinders clean as a whistle, and pulled us to port. I
saw nothing but blue water over the nose and figured when the nose
drops, I'm leaving town. No nose gear steering when it's extended for
launch, so I stood on the stbd brake and managed to get the jet stopped
between the bow cats. If we had been on Cat 1 or 2, we would have been
over the bow, Cat 4 would have put us over the side before we could get
the jet turned. Everything happened in slow motion. Lucky day.
Cole Pierce 891
F-8 chase operations at Edwards, this from gator.crouze.com:
"The former North American aircraft company at Palmdale, California
obtained two RF-8Gs in the '80s for research & development
work.
The first of the two to arrive in January 1986 was BuAer 144617, which
had been in storage at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona since the
decommissioning of VFP-306 in 1984. This aircraft began flying in May
1987 as N110NR in support of Rockwell's Advanced Technology Wing (ATW)
program, but after ten flights, this program was canceled. By then, the
second Crusader had also arrived, but 145607 (a former VFP-206
aircraft) did not fly in the ATW program and was immediately put into
flyable storage, as was N110NR. Both Crusaders were restored to flying
status, however, for the X-31 program, acting as chase planes. Both
RF-8s were finally grounded in 1992 and have been preserved: one at
MCAS El Toro, California, the other at Edwards AFB, California."
BuNo 145607 was indeed at Edwards as late as 2008 or so. It is now the
refurbished jet being readied for display at Castle AFB.
Cole Pierce 892
The RF8G was that was used up at Edwards was originally transferred
from VFP-306 when it was decommissioned in 1987 to Rockwell. It was
supposed to be used as a test bed for development of some sort of
critical wing design. I was working the B1B mission effectiveness
program and conventional capability development program at the time for
Boeing, and the guys I was working with at Rockwell sent me a picture
of the bird landing at Edwards. Shortly after that, Boeing bought
Rockwell. Thecritical wing design program was cancelled, and the bird
was used by the Air Force. Used as a chase plane up there.
Scott Ruby 893
VF 174, 1958. On return from Gitmo gun dets, we would remove the ammo
cans for transport back to Cecil in the Gooney Bird, and filled the
compartments with booze. In addition, we could stuff mucho bottles of
the good stuff in the rocket packs. As I recall the pack would droop on
shutdown so we had to have the ground crew briefed to rig up a cushion
on the ramp. This was before the "big bust" wherein the Feds
confiscated the Leeward Point package store records and threatened all
'party purchasers' with the tax bill and/or fine. That's another story.
TR Swartz 894
Elimination of the rocket packs was a blow to small business. We used
to smuggle Coors beer to the east coast (where it was not available
commercially). As I recall, we got just short of one case in those
tubes, and man was it cold when we got back east.
Dick Shrewsbury 895
NASA paid North American to build a SCW wing onto a F8. Another F8 was
used by NASA for a fly-by-wire program. I flew the SCW F8 after the
Program was finished, on 5/23/73, invited by NASAS Dryden - I was Head
of Ops and a research pilot at NASA Langley - several pilots from other
Centers were also invited to evaluate the airplane. This was NOT a
North American Co. program. Time dims memories. Jim Patton
NASA Dryden Fact Sheets - F-8 Supercritical Wing - 12.02.09
F-8 Supercritical Wing Background In the early 1960s, Richard T.
Whitcomb, chief of the Transonic Aerodynamics Branch, Langley Research
Center, Hampton, Va., conducted exploratory research that led to the
invention and patent of the NASA Supercritical Airfoil.
Click the following to access the link:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-044-DFRC.html
Jim Patton 896
The story of the T-33 to Gtmo with empty tip tanks for rum, reminds me
of a young Ens (me) taking a big Banshee there from NAS Jax for the
same reason. On the way home needed to refuel at Homestead AFB and
asked for internal only, then left to get a bite to eat. On returning
the line personal informed me the tips were not full, so they topped
them off!! Had to dump the tips on the leg to NAS JAX and try to come
up with a good story for the skipper. I was in hack for two weeks and
had to cough up the money to buy the replacement rum.
Bill Query 897
Leon Swaim ("Swami") was killed in an accident just after leaving NAS
Dallas on a VRF-32 x-country ferry flight in 1970. Some 40 miles after
takeoff he declared an emergency with his intention to return to
Hensley Field. He went straight in at high speed. The accident
investigation determined he had an engine failure (it was not rotating
upon impact) but my recollection is they could not explain why he did
not eject.
I had just been through Dallas two days prior on a similar flight and
failed to pull my seat pins due to my reliance on the PC who was
inexperienced and/or not qualified. I didn't discover the pins still in
place until the top of descent but of course then it was too late. I
landed successfully not having to use the seat. I think it may be
possible the same scenario may have been experienced by Swami except
that he didn't discover it until his engine quit.
Gary Williams 898
On Ash Wednesday, 1966 VMF 334 lost a pilot and aircraft with the pins
still in the curtain. "Dutch" Holland, USAF Academy graduate
(with a Marine commission), took off from MCAS Yuma on a cool morning
after waving the PC away so he could get the canopy down and warm up.
Shortly after T/O the engine blew and Dutch rode it in. Two airfield
employees said the aircraft "stairstepped" down, probably as Dutch
pulled alternately on the curtain then the stick.
Willy Carroll 899
Norm Gandia can tell you all about bridle slap. The Enterprise crew was
launching us at something well over 165 knots and the bridle took off
his left MLG right at the axle. He had to take the barricade. Both his
squadron and my Photo Det complained about excess end speed on the # 3
cat but the ship said we were being shot at the correct pressure and we
were misreading our air airspeed indicator. A couple of days later (it
may have been the very next day) the pendant pulled out the A/C
connection and Steve Sutro went into the water and was lost. As a
result, experts were sent from Johsville and they found that the ship's
gages were in error on that particular cat. They fixed the problem and
we had no more hard shots.
Frank "Fang" Liberato 900
During the spring of '72, I did a spin rendezvous off the cat to join
up with my lead, John Nichols. I tucked in as his wing was coming down,
and he had a lit cigarette dangling out the side of his mouth. I'll
never know how he got that thing lit so fast. Another time during a
double cycle bar-cap, my zippo lighter ran dry, and no matches since
Pirate mandated no matches in the cockpit for litter reasons. I got
creative and used my flowing O2 mask as a catalyst for ignition. Bad
mistake. Lost my moustache, eye lashes, eyebrows, and O2 mask. But, I
got that damn cigarette going. Plus, the maintenance crew never could
clean off the black smudge inside the canopy. Ah, the adventures of the
good old days.
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