Gator Tales -Page 7 - 601 - 700
Julian Baucom
begins Martin-Baker approach. Photos by Rodney Rogers in another RF8,
using Bay 2 camera.
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THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED
BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO
EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL
FASHION.
601
George? wrote that Ron Dodge was shot down escorting a Hancock RF8 in
1967. That is not
correct. I was on that photo det. John Schulze was the OinC. No
RF8’s or escorts were lost on the 1967 Hancock
cruise. The Ron Dodge I remember from Hancock days flew for the Blues
and was with me in the F4 RAG at Cecil in February
1971. I believe he was shot down in 1972 or ’73. I
don’t know the details.
Rocky Squirrel
602
One photo escort shot down was Ron Dodge (VF-51) during the
Bon Homme Richard cruise in '68. There were pictures of him
being led through a village after his capture, but he was murdered will
in captivity. The gooks returned his bones in
the '90s, but never acknowledged his capture.
George Hise
603
Walt, ref. the Pravda item:
In the late 70s when researching MiG Master I had some correspondence
with Brit aviation writer Bill Gunston. He said
that at a diplomatic event c. 1962 he talked to a Soviet official who
confided that the one Capitalist Imperialist
fighter the USSR worried about was the (then) F8U, which could appear
almost anywhere on earth and establish air
superiority. Maybe those folks still remember!
Break-break
Ref. Jim Patton's tribute to Robin Lindsey: I had the pleasure of
interviewing Robin long ago, and his performance at
Santa Cruz truly was the maestro conducting a magnificent symphony.
IIRC the last plane airborne was an F4F flown by
Swede Vejtasa, whom Flatley Himself considered the finest tailhooker
afloat. With the deck nearly locked, Robin cut
Swede onto the one wire, and that ended the recovery.
One other LSO tale: in early '42 during one of Wasp (CV-7's) Malta
runs, a Spitfire lost its belly tank and could not
reach destination. The pilot was given the choice of bailing or trying
for the deck. He elected to come aboard, and
the LSO waved him off as too fast on the first pass. On the next pass
Paddles cut him long: the pilot got on the deck,
stood on the brakes, and stopped about 6 paces from the end. The waver
was LT Dave McCampbell, two years later to be
famous as CAG-15 and the all-time USN ace of aces. The pilot was a
Canadian, Jerry Smith, who went MIA a few months
later. In 1990 I introduced Dave to Jerry's brother Rod, a Spitfire ace
himself. What a treat!
Barrett sends
604
There was no Ron Dodge on the Blues during that time.
Norm Gandia
605
Regarding Ron Dodge, I dug out some old VF-51 squadron newsletters.
George Hise was close, Ron Dodge, VF-51, CAG-5,
Hancock, was lost in 1967, during the third line period of the '66 -'67
cruise. I don't recall what kind of mission he
was on. This was around the same time Norm McCoy joined our squadron.
Ron's loss was noted by Operations Officer, LCDR
J. F. Lamore, on page 2 of Vol. IV, The Eagle Screams,
I've always had suspicious thoughts about Ron's remains being returned
within weeks of an extensive interview with Ron's
wife on 'Night Line', early '90s? The program started out reviewing the
Iranian Hostage incident and continued with
discussions about the Vietnam POW-MIA recovery efforts. Jan Dodge had
been very active in efforts to keep interest alive
to resolve the status of our MIA's.
Wayne Skaggs
606
Ron Dodge - VF-51. VF-51 was deployed onboard Bonnie Dick. Ron was on
his first combat tour. I was ops officer. Our
normal procedures for first tour combat pilots was to put them on our
wing until they became accustomed to the demands
of combat. Ron was my wingman for the baptism period, and was a quick
learner and an outstanding stick. We turned him
loose as section leader on a road recce flight down South of Hanoi. he
found a target near Vinh and went after it with
his section. He was shot down by anti-aircraft fire and was captured by
the gooks. I was asked to verify pictures of
him shortly after his capture, and confirmed that this was Ron. To my
knowledge, he never made it to the Hanoi prison
system. I cannot confirm this statement, but we looked daily for any
intelligence that he made it to Hanoi to join
other captured pilots.
Moose Myers
606
For fx, who flew AD's: I think the nickname "Spad" for the AD probably
was applied after it became the only single-
engine recip aboard amongst all those jets. I never considered it
insulting or derogatory. Everybody knew it was a great
airplane.
Slim Tinsley
607
We had a CAG on the Forestall, who had exceptional writing
skills (like Ron's) and I captured several of his "Cags Rag"
on our "VFP-62 Memorabilia" Page (direct link:
www.vfp62.com/memorabilia.html look for CAG's Rag). He writes about
several pilots that we lost during our Med cruise (1962-63) and one,
was a F8 pilot, LtJg W.V. Davis of VF-103 (Feb.
1963). Did anyone know him?
I witnessed that accident, in what seemed like slow-motion. The hold
back apparently broke prematurely on launch and I
watched the Crusader move forward, and slip over the angle deck. I can
still remember seeing the underside of the
fuselage as it flipped over the edge. He sunk very fast because I ran
from the island to the angle and the plane was
gone. I wonder if you guys have discussed accidents of this type yet?
I believe another accident of the same type, on
the starboard cat of the Shangri La, was captured by a ships company
photomate and the exceptional sequence of photos of
that accident can be seen on our "We Love Crusaders" Page and the link
to look for is "Crusader Mishaps". In that case,
the F8 did not sink fast (and the pilot escaped) because it hit the
water flat, as opposed to the nose-down fall of the
VF-103 F8.
608
In the first input contains an item about a VF-103 catapult accident on
Forrestal during the '62-'63 Med deployment
which killed the pilot, Walt Davis. I was the squadron safety officer
at that time and was the senior member of the
accident board. The cause of the accident was not a holdback problem.
Recall that the F-8 used a launch pendant vice a
bridle. The pendant hooked to the aircraft over a short bar/pin between
two somewhat rounded flanges that were part of
and below the aircraft keel. Those flanges were not completely flat on
the bottom surfaces but were machined to a small
fairing along the bottom. The launch attempt was from one of the waist
cats, no.4 I think I remember, and was initially
normal. Part way down the cat one of the flanges broke and the pendant
separated from the aircraft. We found some debris
on deck; and, when it was sent in, an engineering analysis showed that
machining the flanges with those small fairings
allowed localized abnormal stress patterns and cracks to set up. The
fix was simply to grind off the fairings and dye
check the flanges. It was a depressing investigation on which to work
because it seemed that the old fickle finger of
fate had sealed the result the instant the cat fired. However, at least
we found the cause and the fix worked. If the
small amount of debris had not remained on deck, it might have been a
mystery until perhaps it happened again. I am not
familiar with the photo bird accident also mentioned in the same item.
Also, the CAG mentioned in the item who wrote the
great daily messages was Earl "Buddy" Yates.
Gene Conner
609
When we got to Cuba in Enterprise in Oct.1962 during a "routine" launch
for a CAP Mission LtJg Steve Sutro, VF-33, was
on the port waist cat and the bridle tore out the launch fittings. He
went into the water upright and got rid of the
canopy but apparently he was trapped and went down with the plane. Norm
Gandia had his port MLG severed by bridal slap
on that same cat a day or two earlier. Made a nice barrier trap.
Details Norm?
We stopped using that cat until the "experts" from Johnsville came down
and re-calibrated all the cats for the
Enterprise. We lost four really promising young officers. Perhaps
P.J.Smith can furnish more details on Offerman's loss
but I was eye witness to the other three.
At the Alabama Museum in Mobile they have one of the Photo Birds from
Enterprise that my Det. flew in Cuba completely
restored to the exact configuration we had. They located Jim Curry and
me and we went there for the dedication last
April together with several former Photo Pukes from VFP-62 and a large
number of the white hats that saved our asses.
Warmed an old man's heart.
Fang Liberato
610
regarding the bhr accident, the pilot was don jordan of vf-191. i was
standing right next to the barricade stantions
when it happened. couldn't believe it, don had a wild ride but popped
up in the wake and was picked up by the helo.
Chuck Klusmann
611
regarding the BHR accident, the pilot was Don Jordan of VF-191. I was
standing right next to the Barricade Stantions
when it happened. Couldn't believe it, Don had a wild ride but popped
up in the wake and was picked up by the helo.
Chuck Klusmann
612
The loss of Steve Sutro on Enterprise was caused by a valve in the cat
system that let ALL the pressure by-pass it and
exert all the pressure on the launch pin on the keel. We, VF-33, were
launched on the waist cats more often than the bow
since the F4's went off those. We had suffered extremely hard shots for
several days from that particular cat - so
violent that the seat pack actually lifted out of the seat pan pulling
your feet off the rudder pedals. We reported it
every time it happened, but nothing could be found wrong. It was harder
than any hydraulic cat shot I ever experienced
on the old 27C's. Initially, it was thought that the nuggets who
reported it were exaggerating until some of the more
experienced people experienced it - when it happened to me I couldn't
believe it, and called the tower to have it taken
off line. Steve actually didn't get rid of the canopy. His launch was
so violent (it had to be much worse than any of
the previous hard shots) that the cat pin was actually pulled out of
the keel took a hell of a lot of pressure to
do that. The pin and parts were left on the deck, and the photos showed
his head slammed back into the headrest - his
shoulders were also seen to slam back into the seat. After the cat let
go of the plane, he was observed to slump forward
much more than normal and went off the angle with his head down and not
raised at all. It was surmised that he was
rendered unconscious or at least stunned, and no time to eject or
anything else -went into the water flat, and sank.
Needless to say there was a redesign on the cats. The Johnsville rep
was some smart person.
Ray Donnelly
613
some years ago at the El Toro Air Show A F8J participated in the Show
and it was from Thunderbird Aviation and what was
impressive about the flight was a 360 turn staying inside the Field
boundaries in Burner at about 150 feet . I don't
know the airspeed or the G'S but, I would say some where around 350ks
and sustained 6 G's. The Pilot was a retired Navy
Capt and I believe a former CO of the Blue's. Really a great show.
Pudge Parsons
614
I'm sure the pilot of the El Toro/Thunderbird Aviation F8J
was none other than Hoss Pearson, former Blue Boss (A-4's).
Hope all is well,
hotdog brown
615
It is truly amazing how the 1929 Crusader Drivers (give or
take a few) who flew the 1219 F-8 Crusaders that were
manufactured by the Chance Vought Company (again give or take a few)
could experience the same feeling for this trusty
ole bird …. whether you flew it during the 50's, 60's, 70's
or in it's retirement years of the 80's & 90's.
It was the
Summer of '75 at NAS Miramar, FIGHTERTOWN, USA and home to THE EYES OF
THE FLEET. Detachment Three of VFP-63 was on
shore tour or was on one of its infamous 72 hour standby cruises when
the Squadron got a call from the XO of NAS Chase
Field in Beeville, Texas. Commander Bob Crowl was asking around if
there was any way to have a static display of a
Crusader at Beeville for the retirement ceremony of the Base Commanding
Officer, Captain Robert E. Ferguson, "FERGIE",
who flew the Crusader with VF-124 (OPS Officer) from 1959 - 1963, VF-51
(XO & CO) from 1965 -1967 and as CAG 5 in 1967. A static
display would be really befitting as CAPT Ferguson had commented to his
XO that a "Crusader Farewell would be
nice"! The task was turned over to Det Three for implementation of this
fitting farewell.
Captain Ferguson was transitioning from a fine military career of over
32 years of Naval Service to his country to that
of civilian life. The decision was made whereby not only a static
display was a great compliment for such a great
career but a fly-by in burner would be even better. If a fly-by in
burner was better, what would a section fly-by going
"gates" at the same time be like! Crusader Drivers don't just "do"
something unless it's done "right", so the mission
was on.
Myself and wingman John Peck, CDR (RET and one of the last Gator
Drivers of VFP 306) set about to accomplish the
mission. Manning our Crusaders for our trip from Gunfighter Land to
Training Land was the start of a mission that has
been firmly burned into my aging brain. It so happened that the big man
in the sky was looking favorable that day and
provided the best of weather …. relative cool (for a
Southern Texas August day), calm and not a cloud in the sky.
Things were planned or, more than likely, luck had its way from the
time of being handed off from Center to NAS Chase
Field Tower, to the fly-by and to the landing. Upon check-in with TWR,
from about 75 miles out and 39,000 feet, we
requested a high speed, low fly-by. XO Crowl had laid the ground work
as the pattern was cleared and permission was
granted. Little did the TWR know what we meant by high speed, low
fly-by! Passing the lead, we started down hill hoping
to make an appearance sometime close to FERGIE giving up his command
and career. Again the gods of aviation were smiling. Arriving at the
Northwest boundary of the field somewhere between the hangar
and runway 13 L, we were in super tight formation, smoking at 550+ kts,
cooler doors open, and somewhere between the
ground and the top of the hangar. I knew John had us in the weeds as I
remember looking through his lead and level at
the top of the hangar. The hanger doors hand been cracked open by about
10 to 20 feet (we were later told it was more
for audio effect than cooling) and as we went to MIL power and lit the
burners that wonderful sound erupted from our two
chariots of fire. There is nothing quite like the sound of a J-57 P22
going into burner at warp speed ….. much less two
of them at eyeball level. You can imagine the effect we had, especially
when it all happened at the moment Captain
Ferguson's foot stepped on the pavement as he was coming down the
gangplank ….. going from military life to that of
civilian. Cdr Crowl surley received the "last mission accomplished"
award by making this great flyby a possibility ….
starting with searching for the Crusaders to clearing the pattern for
his CO.
"By the completion of the beautiful, precise, finale I must admit that
I was in complete meltdown … The total surprise,
exact precision and timing of the flyby as I departed the ceremony was
the final frosting on the cake …. I had no idea
there would be an F-8 flyby so the surprise was complete ….
It is, to this day, one of my most vivid, treasured
memories!" were some of his subsequent remarks about the honor we had
the pleasure of bestowing upon him. So much so,
that by the time we had pulled up and came around for the break doing
either a "fan" or "tuck under" break (can't
remember which … if either), landed, taxied to the OPS
tarmac and shut down, FERGIE's replacement, Captain Red Issacks,
who in his own right was a first class LSO and MigMaster himself, met
us with 4 beers in hand ….. one for each of ours,
even before our feet could hit the TARMAC! "By orders of the retiring
CO" we were told! Nothing could keep Capt Issacks from whisking us away
to the reception as it was his command and the "command" of Fergie
to be in attendance in order to receive the proper "Thank you from the
bottom of my heart"! Can't remember how many
hands I shook that afternoon after being introduced as "These are the
Gator Drivers that made my day"! Here it was, his
special day but the Old Salt of a MigMaster Captain showered us young
pup Lieutenants with more congratulations and
"attaboys" than we were due! It's stuff like this that warms the heart,
at least mine and one retired Navy Captain!
F-
8's Forever garnett w. haubelt "hubie"
616
Yes it was Hoss Pearson in the TB F8 at the Yuma air Show. We made a
deal with the Marines to swap a P420 they had in
storage for the show. I flew the F8 into Miramar for the F8 reunion
back in late 80s sometime I believe. Yes pictures
were taken in the hangar. The TB F8s, parts and engines were bought by
Paul Allen of MSF for his museum in Seattle, they
are there on display now.
It is a really tricked out F-8 with fully functional zero zero Martin
Baker and the cockpit is loaded with F16 stuff
including all com/nav gear, gas O2 system, gyro (that abba jabba 3
thing, remember that baby?) Loran, VHF/UHF radios,
special comm. Selector switch setup to receive on two radios and
transmit on one at same time. However the best nav gear
still remained EBN (eye ball nav) got to know all the freeways and
railroad tracks all over the SW. All the com/nav gear
was stacked in center of front console where gun sight used to be. The
glass sight was cut up and used for camera ports
because it is optically perfect glass. The gun switches were converted
to camera on/off switches. Yeah all this stuff
worked perfectly.
In case anybody is wondering how the F8 would stack up to modern stuff
today, actually it did quite well. It would run a
clean F15 out of gas like quick and at 800Kt's on the deck at 20' give
or take it pulled away from an F16 chase most
easily. Interestingly enough at that speed the engine started going
into over speed, the egt started climbing into
danger zone and the fuel gauge was going down faster than Paris
Hilton's panties.
The most fun stuff was doing cluster bomb (CBU-87) lay downs for the
AF. Once a month the AF would haul out two bombs
for testing out of storage. One with prox fuse and one without. We
dropped them in weapons test range at White Sands at
500Kt and 500 ft altitude. After the drops some guy would go out on the
range and count the duds if any and blow them up
to clean the range. There are 202 of these bomb lets in each bomb,
nasty stuff as they will wipe out anything they hit.
These bombs are what they used in Iraq to wipe out all that Soviet
armor. Just one of the bomb lets inside the bomb will
take out the largest Soviet tank. They look something like a long
Budweiser beer can.
Dudley Moore
617
I guess it's time for me to post something about the Thunderbird F-8's.
Bill Hauprich, the president of Thunderbird
Aviation, called me after I retired to ask me if I wanted to fly the
F-8 and I jumped at the chance.
Thunderbird bought 5 F-8's from DRMO at NAS Dallas that were left over
from the Philippine F-8 program. From those,
they built two good a/c, although only one ever flew. Thunderbird had
several really good mech's, including one former
USMC F-8 mech, Bruce Dickens, who forgot more about the F-8 than the
rest of us ever knew. Bruce did most of the work
on the a/c and made sure it was done right. Unfortunately, Bruce is no
longer with us, but has graduated to God's
squadron after a lengthy battle with cancer.
The flying F-8 was N19TB and was mostly a 'C' although was actually
built from several a/c. It had a detuned J-57 P55
engine from a Canadian F-101 with something less than 16,000# of thrust
in A/B. We installed a P420 later that we
acquired in a trade with a museum and that made it a real "hotrod" with
1 to 1 thrust to weight with 5,000#'s of gas.
Dudley Moore flew the first flights in the a/c and did most of the
flying for the first couple of years. I was able to
jump in there because Dudley had to go into training in his real job
with Delta Airlines for a new a/c and Thunderbird
had some project work for the a/c; lot acceptance testing of CBU's.
This was a lot of fun, level release at 500 kt's and
500 ft on the White Sands Missile Range.
I checked my log book and I flew the a/c 91 times with probably a
little over 100 hours. As Pudge mentioned, I flew
airshows with it including the one he saw at El Toro. The amazing thing
to me about it was that I was able to fly the
same routine I had flown in the F-18 at VX-4 with a few subtle changes.
For instance, in the Hornet I had about a 1,000
ft takeoff run and then went right into a half-cuban 8. The F-8
couldn't do that, so I did a low transition and
accelerated to 300 kt's before going into the half-cuban. The low
altitude 360 that Pudge mentioned was pretty easy with
the P55, just plug in the burner and pull. However, when we installed
the P420 it would accelerate all the way around
and you'd run out G's, so I had to come out of burner and then relight
it just before getting back to center point.
My first airshow practice flight after installing the P420 was
interesting. I practiced at an abandoned airfield in the
Luke MOA's working up for an airshow at Luke. With the old engine, I
only had two power settings, MIL and A/B, so
that's how I started the practice. I knew I was working a lot harder
during the practice, but didn't know why. Towards
the end of the routine, I made a dirty pass with gear and hook down and
wing up and at center point, plugged in the
burner, picked up gear and hook and did a wing up climb to 3,000 ft.
Then push over, come out of burner and circle
around behind the crowd for a "sneak" pass where I come in from behind
and light the burner directly over the crowd and
pull to vertical and do vertical rolls till I was out of airspeed. With
the old engine, I'd be a little over 500 kts,
but with the P420 it was a different story. I knew something was wrong
and I was having a hard time turning in at my
checkpoint; I came inside and checked my airspeed, I was doing 620. I
then realized why I had been working so hard and
would have to now manage my airspeed with power.
I wound up flying many airshows, a movie project and several test
projects including a supersonic towed decoy program
for Lockheed. It was a lot fun getting back into the F-8 and doing all
this work, but it got harder and harder to
maintain and the test work went away. My understanding is that Paul
Allen eventually bought the two F-8's and they are
at his museum in Seattle and also understand he did not want to make
them flyable.
Another very memorable event was doing the fly over for Bug Roach's
memorial service. Originally I was to be part of an
F-14 formation and pitch out in the traditional missing man formation.
Then AIRPAC decided a civilian F-8 should not
fly with the F-14's. So I took off from Deer Valley, flew to Miramar
and held on Vance "Star" Parkers wing for over an
hour while Rabbit Campbell delivered a very good, but lengthy eulogy.
It was getting late in the day and as always at Miramar, the haze and
visibility got worse before Star detached me to do
my fly over with the F-14's following. I had my Blue Angel overhead
photo in the cockpit and had my route all planned
out: fly over the reserve center, the theater, McDonald's and then over
the chapel.
As I detached, I pushed the power up to MIL and started my descent. I
flew over the reserve center, but never saw the
theater or the adjacent NEX parking lot and all of a sudden I was over
McDonald's, made a quick jink to the right and
flew over the chapel at a very low altitude and about 600 kts. I pulled
vertical and hit the burner right over the
chapel (over stressing the a/c and buckling a brand new baggage pod the
mech's had built for me to carry my golf clubs
in). My wife attended the service, and was on the chapel lawn with the
rest of the congregation. She was amused to
watch the mouths of the young F-14 jocks hanging open, with whispers of
"What he hell was THAT?" as the burner lit and
she said they were all in awe. It was a great way for me to say
good-bye and pay my respects to my good friend and
shipmate Bug.
My last flight in the F-8 was in April 1998 at the Luke airshow. Great
times!! With the opportunity to fly the F-8
again, in T&E projects and airshows, my aviation career came
full circle.
All the best,
Hoss Pearson.
618
Dudley Moore (VF-194) flew the Thunderbird F-8 also. Sometime in '86 or
'87 we were doing a West departure off 08R at
PHX (climbing right turn to a Westerly heading) in an old 737-200 when
the controller went ballistic over a possible
traffic conflict. I looked out the right cockpit window and, behold,
there was a smoking F-8 coming from the North,
passing about 1500' over the top of our plane. We told the controller
it was no big deal. Found out some years later
that it was Dud. He worked for a while for America West as a Sim
instructor in the '90s and I had him for a (very
pleasant) six month check. He told me he was flying it that day.
Bob Harrison
619
Fascinating reports from Hoss and Dudley. "Envious" hardly
covers it...!!!
Four years ago, while looking for F8's to display on both Hornet and
Midway, I got in touch with Bruce Morehouse and
learned that he owns an F8H and an F8J fuselage, both of which need
wings. Bruce has been searching for F8 wings for a
very long time and is eager to have his airframes find their way to
deserving museums. Most of you probably know that
the vast majority of usable wing center-sections were sold to France to
replace those on their F8's that had reached
their fatigue-life limits. That left a lot of bare F8 fuselages in the
Tucson desert.
Bruce and I chased down several leads including the report that, when
Paul Allen bought the 2 F8's at Thunderbird, many
spare parts, including some wings, may have been left behind in the
Deer Valley area. There were some indications that
whatever remained was relocated and possibly tied up in some legal
process. We were unable to find anyone who knew where
the remnants might be or who owned them.
Do any of you have information on those wings or any other possible
sources of F8 wings? (The center sections are the
most critical.)
We also discovered a very large number, of mostly F8K's, among many,
many other military and commercial airframes, that
had been given/loaned to a remote explosives test facility in Socorro,
New Mexico. Bruce went to visit there and found
as many as 60 F8's in unusually well-preserved, high-desert condition.
Unfortunately, their wings had all been removed
and cut. Their vertical and horizontal stabilizers had also been cut
off to reduce the load clearance when they were
trucked to the site. We've since been told that the majority of those
A/C have been removed and destroyed.
I believe our "association" should do what it can to track and preserve
what may remain of the Crusader inventory. Any
"nuggets" (65 or under? :-)) out there who might volunteer as the
"Inventory Control Officer"?
Regards, Dick Cavicke
620
I just read Dudley Moore and Hoss Pearson's escapades in the F-8 and I
have to share this one from circa 1965...2 F8U-
2N's Sioux City airshow...static display...sponsored by The Navy League
of Iowa. Jay Griffin and I were instructors in
VF-124. It was a plumb 3 days at Sioux City...The League picked up the
tab for most things. We knew it was going to be
a good project when we shut down our 2 Crusaders on the ramp. As we
took off our helmets, they handed us a beer! We got
into an air-conditioned van (July)...and they took us to the local
Holiday Inn. In our room, we found keys to a Dealer
donated Pontiac convertible, a bottle of scotch and a bottle of
bourbon...and then we were invited to meet with the Air
Force Thunderbird's troupe, and the other static displayer's. A-4 guys
from Lemoore...A-6's from Whidbey...all CAG-12.
Everyone in flight suits by the pool. Next day the Navy League had
scheduled a riverboat...and we cruised the Missouri
River for 4-5 hours...with an open bar and a piano player taking
requests on the fantail! Great fun.
Now the meat of it is, that in a pre-briefed final day of the air
show...the organizers wanted to show the crowd about
the Navy. Jay and were tasked to do high performance take offs. We
decided that I would roll first and do a Double
Immelman and he would do a wing-up climb...and then after this, I would
join on the A-4 tanker, plugged in for a fly-
by. I figured I needed around 400kts to do it...we were light-loaded
with about 3500 lbs. Didn't take into account
the 'heat' of July in Iowa. At about 350kts and losing sight of the
field boundary...I pulled up into the first
one...there was no second one! As I was on my back...I saw Jay coming
up dumping wing fuel...I hit the dumps and
pointed at him going down in what appeared to be a half-cuban 8. We
passed close enough that it looked spectacular from
the ground! I actually met the tanker and did the slow flyby. We later
saw the Thunderbird's at the O'club...and they
wanted to know how long we had practiced that maneuver! I told them the
truth.
Best to all...great site.
Larry "Hook" Miller
621
The reply from Hoss brought back a flood of memories about the early
days of the TB F8. Will get around to recount some
of them in the future. I would like to add my memory of that fantastic
flyover for Bug's funeral. The weather was
terrible with thick low ceilings and did not expect a flyover to work.
We were all standing outside the chapel after the
service when all of a sudden here comes Hoss in a boom zoom up into the
clouds burner going. The noise was startling due
to the altitude and he was gone in a flash. As the noise from the
engine subsided, you could hear the rush of the wind
whirling around sort of cyclone like as it swirled around and around
and seemed to follow the F8 upwards..You could
actually hear the whipping noise it made and then it seemed to recede
in the distance until it stopped, then total dead
silence. The whole thing was just surreal and so perfect a send off for
such a great man. The silence was just deafening
and there was not a dry eye in the crowd and there were some real hard
cases there. This was your finest moment Hoss I
don't care what else you did in your career nothing beat that. Have a
story for Barrett about the whale tail A3, how it
came about, what it did and where they went...will call it Hoss and
Dudley do the B2....well sorta...actually it was Air
Vehicle One.
Dudley Moore
622
There would be no BuNo for the TB F8's (except in the history records).
they were probably re-designated experimental &
given an N number.
John Watkins
623
Here’s an Internet trail for two Thunderbird
Aviation Crusaders. F8K No. 145592 and F8L No. 145527 were flown as
late
as 1998 and were last sold to Vulcan Warbirds.
http://gator.crouze.com/chapter6_3.html
May 1993 photo of F8K No. 145592. http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1147666/
Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft, purchased both Thunderbird F-8's.
Vulcan is associated with Mr. Allen and the
Flying Heritage Collection in Washington State. Heritage opened last
year at Paine Field in Everett with the goal of
restoring combat planes. http://www.flyingheritage.com/
Pete Michael
624
Special note to Hook Miller - Hook you never let on that you
had "practiced" the take-off air show before. Now the rest
of the story:
Hook was OinC of a VF-124 carqual det to El Centro early in 1968. I was
the senior LSO. The Blues were nearing the end
of their practice cycle and were going to put on an announced show at
the base for the local residents. Hook told me
that the two of us were going to put on the take-off demonstration he
has just described here. I asked, "Why me?" Hook
responded, "You're #2 in seniority, and nobody else wants to do it." So
off we went - but this time no attempt at a
double Immelman, just the half-Cuban 8. The difficulty, of course, is
that neither of us could see one another until we
were about to pass - he was on his back in the Cuban 8 and I had an
extreme nose up attitude in burner with the wing up
and a light load of fuel. It worked perfectly as we passed at about
1800 ft, just like we had been practicing for
weeks. And it is probably a maneuver that shouldn't be practiced.
Tom Corboy
625
Tom Corboy is a liar! We didn't practice the maneuver...I "explained"
it to him and we did it. The 1965 Airshow in
Sioux City was 3 years earlier and was a mistake that turned out.
That's when I got the idea for the the Half-Cuban and
tried to sell it to the Blue's Billy Wheat as an opening for the 2
solos. Stormin' Norman Gandia and crowd. Tom is
right about the Blues part...I just wanted to show them that it would
be a great opener. It was not nearly as hairy as
Thomas tries to point out...He was easy to see dumping wing fuel. We
probably weren't closer that a hundred feet to
each other. About like meeting head on in a hassle. Have Tom tell you
about the F-8 that had a flameout that one of
FRPS had on downwind nite bouncing. Don't remember his name, but he
punched out and was OK...the Crusader went into a
Feed Lot by the base...fairly flat and ended up in a hay stack of
bales. When they pulled it out, there was a cow
impaled on the nose cone. The price of beef went up to about $1000.00 a
pound!
One last thing... Ron Dodge was on that 1968 Det...That should cover
some of the controversy about time frame. Great
guy. Tom really isn't a liar...just senile.
Hook sends.
626
I was on that Det as a FRP when the F-8 hit the cattle pen. The pilot
was Doug Clark. Don't know if he is still around
or not. He's not on the Gunfighter roster. I was told that a lot of
cattle were made well done by that accident. I
remember the pen was packed pretty tight with cattle and smell was
pretty awful for miles around.
Dick (Fig) Newton
627
Ken Fox flew the only two seater F-8 with a Philippine pilot in the
back seat. They experienced an engine failure.
Unable to relight, they ejected. Fox is the only Naval aviator to eject
and take his "steward" with him.
John Tapley
628
I think most of our Production Test Pilots flew the "Twosader". As a
side note nobody wanted us to do a full scale
Accident Investigation-Not NASA-"No need to investigate a
one-of-a-kind" Not Navy-"It belongs to NASA" Not Vought-"Not
part of the contract" Not the PAF-" We don't care".
So we cleaned up the debris from the farmer's field, salvaged the
ejection seats, wrote the shortest accident report
since WW1, and closed the investigation. As a side-bar that was the
ONLY test of the escape system. See Dick Atkins for
details. I was still on active duty when the Twosader was built. I was
the Mgr. of System Safety for Vought when the
accident occurred and I was in charge of the "investigation".
Frank L. "Fang" Liberato
630
Norm Gandia on photo escort:
After I was demoted to Phantoms, I had a number of "opportunities" to
escort you RF-8 guys over the beach, and try as I
did, I always was in min burner just to keep up with the program - -
how embarrassking, as Popeye would say!
631
More El Centro escapades: about El Centro FMLP Training in
the spring of 62. I guess we had everyone there that was
going to Japan in the fall and all we did was FMLP, Drink Beer and eat
Mexican Chow. However since I was the LSO I spent
a lot of time out on that hot and dry runway so once we had completed
our training which made me the last to get to go
back to El Toro I was told by the Maintenance Officer that they where
working on a bird that had a gear problem and that
the down locks where in place so don't pull up the gear and that the
Canopy would be locked down once I was in the
cockpit as the bracket that held the canopy open was broken . I thought
oh well no problem just go back to El Toro with
the gear down and stay under 250 kts.As I approached El Toro it was of
course IFR and also night so in order to get down
through the overcast I decided to use the speed brake using the over
ride switch whitch was safety wired down . No
problem just break the safety wire and pop the speed brakes {this was
one the only 145 series in the Sqd.} And the speed
brake deployed light was under the gear handle. I did not notice that
it was on and landed on the speed brakes rolling
them up neatly on the gear doors. Because the bird needed maintenance,
I taxied right into the Hangar and then the night
Maintenance Chief said" Hey Captain you bent up the Speed brakes" Check
Lists are important as I was told by the Skipper
the next day. I am glad we only had one 145 series.
Pudge Parsons
632
The old memory is kicking in with all these stories of El Centro. One
hot evening, after waving a bunch of FCLP's, a
quick ride to the ramp then a burner go to try and catch everyone back
at NKX, I turned around in the cockpit to look at
something and realized I had not hooked up to the seat. After the
inital panic, I managed to attach the harness and
forget about catching the guys. Haven't told many about this event.
Tom Klein VF-51
633
Re: El Centro, I recall a near divorce and a lot of obsequious "Yes,
Honey" paybacks after the wife of a Miramar Spad
squadron JO found out that he had (silently) been collecting $4.50 a
day per diem for several squadron weapons
deployments to El Centro!
Regards, Al Fancher
634
Regarding the news item of Adm McDonald's death and his flyover of the
destroyer under attack, I can definitely say that
he is correct on nothing being there but our ship. Here is what really
happened from one who was there and #2 F8 over
that tin can that fateful night.
I had just reported to VF-194 out of the RAG and flown aboard the
carrier that day by COD. I was put on the night ready
cap spotted aft. Bob Woodrow was on the port cat. (Woody passed in 1991
- cancer). After about an hour sitting there
with nothing but RAG stuff in the kneeboard as I had no maps, freq
card, nothing. I didn't have a clue where the ship
was within 2000 miles of anywhere. All of a sudden all the flood lights
came on and deck crews were running everywhere
and started knocking off the tie downs. Geez they are really going to
launch my rear end off this thing, I thought, as I
heard Woody starting his engine.
I joined in trail on Woody and never saw him again until on deck after
it was over. Told to contact the radar S2 then
another freq from the S2 and told to head 300 degrees. When I dialed in
the freq all I heard was total chaos on the can
as somebody was just holding his key down. I could hear the 5"/38
cannon blasting away like it was on auto load. There
was an overcast broken but pretty solid so I started letting down
toward the can. Underneath it was clear and the big
moon out helped a lot. I thought about what I was going to do if there
were PT boats there shooting at the can. Had a
load of 20mm and two winders. Well I can pop the winders at the engines
on the boats and hoped they guided. Strafing a
boat at night over the ocean seemed a sure form of suicide.
I picked up the can ahead and let down to 1000 ft or so and headed for
it. It had a lot of smash on as it was throwing
up a big wake. No other wakes visible, no other boats at all anywhere.
The 5" gun turrets were aimed to the left of the
can and I saw what they were shooting at. It was a big rock sticking up
out of the ocean. Nothing else was visible
except the red tracers arching up my way. I keyed the mike and said
"stop shooting we are friendly". Didn't do any good
as they were just shooting at anything. I pulled up over the can and
started climbing still headed toward land. On top I
broke out and saw city lights all over the place. Great I am over China
I thought and made a fast 180 picked up the
opposite heading back to the ship climbing to 25,000 ft.
I was sweating running out of gas before getting back to the carrier
and didn't relish punching out into all that black
ocean. The ship had launched an A4 tanker so I loaded up and got an
immediate Charlie. On deck I debriefed everybody
that nothing was there, no attack at all. Didn't do any good as
obviously Washington wanted a war and if it wasn't this,
it would have been something else. Well they got one. One hell of a way
to start my first cruise I thought. Never did
get to watch the movie..Beach Blanket Bingo, I remember. I was scared
to death the whole time. Woody and I got to the
can first before all the others as we passed them on the way back to
the ship. Took 5 tries to tank on the A4 as we had
used the A3 in RAG training and that A4 basket was soooo tiny.
Seriously thought I would not make it due to fuel state.
I could hear all the confusion and panic on the can's radio and that
big 5" gun going blam, blam, blam, until it quit,
probably because it ran out of ammo. They never answered several radio
calls.
Dudley Moore
635
I know you remember that 6 months after Bubba flew the last F-8J from
Miramar to DM, we convinced the powers to be at
PMTC to pick up some F-8J's instead of repairing an F-8L that was
damaged in a gear up landing. We hand picked 5 that
we thought were the best: BUNO's 150297, 150302, 150661, 150904 and
150913. We sent a crew from Mugu, headed up by AMH1
Walt Garrison, to break them out; then we test flew them and ferried
them back to Mugu. This was done in November and
December '76. The aircraft were in great shape and an enjoyable
project. Eventually they were transferred back to
Miramar for VFP-63 to use for training. I believe Dave Beam
orchestrated that and what a great idea.
I flew my last Navy F-8 flight in March '78 in F-8J 150904 and as I
posted earlier, my last F-8 flight in April '98 in
F-8K N19TB. Great memories!
All the best, Hoss Pearson
-536
Track's recollection is correct. Turtle & I stood at attention
and saluted as Track smartly departed NKX on that bright
sunny morning in what was truly the Last of the Gunfighters from that
era. We were proud to have been part of it, and
everybody else was envious I'm sure. Hell, how could ya not be envious
if you were a fighter pilot who'd never flown
the most beautiful machine ever built and just realized that you never
would !
Rattler -537
One more LAST F8J flight story: I was intrigued by Hoss' story of the
five F-8's they flew at Pt Mugu and his last Navy
F-8 flight in March '78 in F-8J 150904. By October '78, all five of
those Pt Mugu F-8J's were at VFP-63. Help me out
here Taco, I checked into the last F-8 RAG as your XO in September '78
and I believe it was you who was instrumental in
getting those "chase" birds for us IP's to "hang on" to the FRP's
flying the RF-8G's. I flew 150302 on Oct 9, '78, my
first F-8J flight since March 25, 72, with VF-194. I can't describe how
good that felt. We continued flying the F-8J's
at VFP-63 until October 8, 1980, when I flew 150297 to DMA. My log book
shows no more F-8J flights, although I did enjoy
the hell out of flying the RF-8G, even though, my XO, Dave Beam tried
to make me fly the Photo syllabus. No F... way! I
turned the F-8 RAG keys over to Beamer in May of 1981 who eventually
wrote the last chapter of active duty F-8 flying.
Joe "Brillo" Phaneuf
638
Greetings from the coast of Maine. I thought I had some additional
background on F8E BuNo 149210 from my days in
VMF(AW)-232 as the number sounded familiar. Sadly I was off by one or
two airframes. For what it's worth here's some
information on close relatives of your F8 including my log book entries
on BuNo's 149209 and 149212.
In April 1966 we flew our F8F-8D's from MCAS Kaneohe Bay, (Hawaii), to
NAS Miramar, (California), and picked up F8Es
that we flew back to Hawaii. My log book shows 4.7 hours from Hawaii to
California and 5.5 on the return to Hawaii.
That can be a long time in a single seat fighter with no piss tube. I
think we picked up 149209 and 149212 on that trip
but I have no log book entries for either aircraft until August of
1966.
On 30 and 31 August 1966 I flew F8E 149212 from MCAS Kaneohe to NAS
Atsugi (Japan) via Midway and Wake Islands using KC-
130 tankers along the way. I first flew 149209 out of NAF Naha
(Okinawa) on a gunnery hop on 29 September 1966. I had 3
more flights in 209 in October during work ups for the squadron moving
to DaNang RVN.
I went to DaNang on 27 October, (prior to the arrival of the 232 main
body), and flew with VMF(AW)-235 through 1
November 1966 . I have no entry for 149210, but 235 may have had that
aircraft. 232 commenced combat operations on 15
November 1966, and continued to fly missions out of DaNang through 30
August 1967.
During that Vietnam tour my log book records seven flights in 1492097,
and seventeen in 149212. (I left 150286 in the
South China Sea on 2 July 1967 thanks to some accurate North Vietnamese
antiaircraft fire).
232 stood down on 1 September 1967. We flew our F8s to NAS Cubi Point
(Philippines), and departed there on 9 September
for NAS Miramar via Guam, Wake Island, and MCAS Kaneohe, arriving at
Miramar on 12 September 1967. (I logged three and a
half hours Cubi Point to Agana Guam, 3.0 Guam to Wake, 4.8 Wake to
Kaneohe, and 5.4 Kaneohe to Miramar).
We had an 8 day wait in the Philippines while refueling aircraft could
be set up for our return to the United States.
Eluding, with varying degrees of success, the pleasures of Olongapo, a
sort of anything goes town just outside the air
station, during that interval, may have been a more perilous
undertaking than much of what we, (speak for yourself
Bruce), did in the war in Vietnam.
I stayed in F8s through the middle of 1968 flying Ds and Cs out of MCAS
Beaufort until we switched to the F4J. The F4
was an enormously capable aircraft but, in my experience, there was
never anything like the F8 for the pure joy of
flying a beautiful airplane. The "Last F8E-(FN) Flight" that many of us
attended in December 1999 was something I'm
certain none of us will ever forget.
Best regards.
Bruce Martin
639
Greetings from the coast of Maine. I thought I had some additional
background on F8E BuNo 149210 from my days in
VMF(AW)-232 as the number sounded familiar. Sadly I was off by one or
two airframes. For what it's worth here's some
information on close relatives of your F8 including my log book entries
on BuNo's 149209 and 149212.
In April 1966 we flew our F8F-8D's from MCAS Kaneohe Bay, (Hawaii), to
NAS Miramar, (California), and picked up F8Es
that we flew back to Hawaii. My log book shows 4.7 hours from Hawaii to
California and 5.5 on the return to Hawaii.
That can be a long time in a single seat fighter with no piss tube. I
think we picked up 149209 and 149212 on that trip
but I have no log book entries for either aircraft until August of
1966.
On 30 and 31 August 1966 I flew F8E 149212 from MCAS Kaneohe to NAS
Atsugi (Japan) via Midway and Wake Islands using KC-
130 tankers along the way. I first flew 149209 out of NAF Naha
(Okinawa) on a gunnery hop on 29 September 1966. I had 3
more flights in 209 in October during work ups for the squadron moving
to DaNang RVN.
I went to DaNang on 27 October, (prior to the arrival of the 232 main
body), and flew with VMF(AW)-235 through 1
November 1966 . I have no entry for 149210, but 235 may have had that
aircraft. 232 commenced combat operations on 15
November 1966, and continued to fly missions out of DaNang through 30
August 1967.
During that Vietnam tour my log book records seven flights in 1492097,
and seventeen in 149212. (I left 150286 in the
South China Sea on 2 July 1967 thanks to some accurate North Vietnamese
antiaircraft fire).
232 stood down on 1 September 1967. We flew our F8s to NAS Cubi Point
(Philippines), and departed there on 9 September
for NAS Miramar via Guam, Wake Island, and MCAS Kaneohe, arriving at
Miramar on 12 September 1967. (I logged three and a
half hours Cubi Point to Agana Guam, 3.0 Guam to Wake, 4.8 Wake to
Kaneohe, and 5.4 Kaneohe to Miramar).
We had an 8 day wait in the Philippines while refueling aircraft could
be set up for our return to the United States.
Eluding, with varying degrees of success, the pleasures of Olongapo, a
sort of anything goes town just outside the air
station, during that interval, may have been a more perilous
undertaking than much of what we, (speak for yourself
Bruce), did in the war in Vietnam.
I stayed in F8s through the middle of 1968 flying Ds and Cs out of MCAS
Beaufort until we switched to the F4J. The F4
was an enormously capable aircraft but, in my experience, there was
never anything like the F8 for the pure joy of
flying a beautiful airplane. The "Last F8E-(FN) Flight" that many of us
attended in December 1999 was something I'm
certain none of us will ever forget.
Best regards.
Bruce Martin
640
One of my more colorful aviation experiences was associated with a Navy
Crusader, north and east of Haiphong Harbor. As
an RF-8 driver you had to sacrifice and fly willy the whale, EF10B,
providing electronic support to the Navy and AF. On
one of these missions, a Navy Crusader was talking to Red Crown and
requesting permission to engage off the coast, Capt
Bruce Ridell was my lead and on the opposite side of the race track
pattern we were executing and he observed the F-8
about to make a run on me. Good comms and calmer heads prevailed and
nothing took place. That was my one and only near
engagement during two tours of flying up north, (RF-8, RF-4, EA6, EF10,
F-4 and A4) thanks to the AF.
Fox aka Chris DeFries
641
How to burn down an airport with a Crusader. When we first
put together the TB F8, (1984-85 or so) I flew it about 6-7
times at Deer Valley apt to get all the bugs out and there were lots of
them. Finally it was fit to fly over to Goodyear
airport for a burner checkout. Goodyear had a concrete pad on the north
side of the airport with a tie down and sort of
a blast deflector. We took the tail off as there was no heat blanket
and chained it down. Now the airport had a large
growth of dead mesquite and dead grass that was about 4-5 tall and
covered the airport between the north end and south
end where the tower, hangars, admin buildings were. The stuff was dead
like it hadn't rained in about 200 years, that
dead.
Bruce Dickens was in the back with a big spray can of some kind of lube
and what looked like a small sledge hammer. Bill
stood next to the cockpit and gave me signals to run up the engine and
go into burner. Nothing happened for the first 6
tries, then on the 7th burner cycle, it happened. I felt this thump and
heard a kerwhump and the F8 lurched forward
against the tie down. The egt went instantly up to 1000 degs and I
thought wow just like the simulator as I shut down
the engine and killed the generator. A fast cockpit exit then I saw the
unbelievable. The engine sticking out of the
fuselage looked like one of those old civil war cannons that had just
fired a big load of grape shot. A fan shaped load
of black round melted turbine blades was sprayed all over the concrete
ramp and the fire was just starting to roar from
the engine blast into the dried stuff. In an instant it was huge and
spreading rapidly about as fast as a flame thrower
shot into a load of napalm.
Bill shrugged and said, "well time for #2 engine..quite right, time for
#2 I thought. I reached down and scooped up a
handful of melted blades and put them into a flight suit pocket to put
on the home book case with the rest of the
Crusader wreckage. By now the flames were huge about 10-15' tall and
racing across the field toward the tower. Fire
trucks were starting to move as I saw their twirling lights. They were
moving all around spraying water everywhere.
Nothing to do but watch the show so I went over to one of the two wash
tubs full of iced beer and soda pop pulled one
out and popped the top. More fire trucks showed up and now it was
really going good. Never did find out if they
abandoned the tower or not but I am sure it was close.
About three weeks later we had #2 engine installed, burner checked out
and ready to go. Did a burner go out of Goodyear
climbed out to about 15,000 or so got a EBN lock on interstate 8 and
headed toward El Paso enroute to Holloman at White
Sands. Along the way I started to relax for the first time in this
thing and looked around the cockpit listened to all
the noises then rapped my knuckles on the canopy seal and said to
myself, "it really is a Crusader...no s..."
Dudley Moore
642
on the Sh*** Shang in the Med in 1969 the supply pukes outfitted us w/a
"charlie strut" for
our "G" model. It eventually exploded on landing which resulted in a
cable -pull bolter. That ended in a barricade which
is the FASTEST STOP for an F-8. Buno 145647 eventually ended in the
scrap heap due to wing twist and longeron damage
from the barricade etc. etc.
Jay Miller
642
Nobody ever remarks about the absence of a relief tube in the
Gator.
I was launched from south of Crete from Intrepid in an F8U-1P in 1961
to photo the beaches of northern Sardinia with
tanking over Naples on my way back. Us East Coast pilots understand the
Geography of the Med. And that is one helluva
long ride. 4.5 hours +.
Drank no liquids for at least 6 hours prior to launch. Wasn't enough
delay between drinks! After departing the tanker I
was still over an hour away from scheduled Charlie and nature was
calling urgently. I was wearing full leather gloves
(before nomex) and that was the only possible receptacle so they became
my emergency containers.
Now the questionhow do I make a one-handed landing? No way.
I was a fighter pilot before and after being photo puke so I had a lot
of ingenuity. I trimmed the bird very carefully,
slipped out my survival knife, cut the canopy restraining strap, threw
a couple of half-hitches around the cuffs (I was
also a Boy Scout and a sailor) and tied them to the top of the stick.
After my usual OK (taxi one) recovery when I got spotted on the bow I
warned my Plane Captain to hold the canopy down
while I exited. I walked over to the catwalk and threw the gloves over
the side followed by "Send that pilot to the
bridge".
When I explained my dilemma and solution to our wonderful Skipper "Doc"
Abbott he laughed so hard I thought he would
fall out of his chair.
I drew a new pair of gloves and my AK1 found a survival plastic bag we
could be issued for water storage.
Carried that damn bag in my G-suit until I retired 11 years later.
Never again needed one.
"
Fang" Liberato
643
Thanks a bunch! NOW you tell us about the damn plastic bag.
Crash
644
from "anonymous": Fang Liberato's use of his glove brought back
memories, sort of unpleasant ones. Never admitted to
anyone before, but what the heck, we are all old guys can now, so many
of you can relate to what has been a lifelong
annoyance for me kidneys that worked overtime.
Never had to use a glove, but those zip-lock plastic bags that
contained paperwork for engines or whatever were great.
They fit into that tube thingie that was used on the radar-scope in
daylight.... for you pre-Charlie or RF-8 guys, it
stowed vertically just in front of the stick. Must've used close to a
dozen over the years. Never had one erupt on a
trap, never forgot one in the a/c, never got caught tossing one over
the side. Also never drank coffee during my years
as a nasal radiator, though not sure that missing Navy coffee was a
loss.
Perhaps the most memorable was one night over the Med, wearing a
poopysuit, flying loose very loose wing on my
fearless leader. Never did admit why I was so rough out there.
Comparisons to a horse would be welcome, but alas,
inaccurate.
645
Since I always forgot to carry a plastic bag I would use my glove , cut
a piece of cord from my G suit ,tie it around
the glove, then pull the suit strings a little tighter and re-knot the
G suit. Eventually when I had shortened the G
suit cord enough so that I was pulling 2Gs before I got into the
Crusader I switched to my flashlight. That boy scout
crook neck type was just perfect for that hard-to-get into location. My
plane captain once remarked " You've gone
through 9 flashlights but are still using the same batteries"
Jack Allen 546 Haven't been west of Mississippi in a while and was
wondering what happened to 146858 that was a
static display at El Toro and was used in an F8 movie with Drax
Williams as narrator. The cadre for VMCJ-3 received it
new from the factory. Kent McFerron and I flew the first Maint. Test
flights on the new birds. After being in the
reforming of -3 and believing I was stabilized to go overseas. I
received go quick orders to Beaufort, SC. Beaufort was
a Aux. Airfield at the time and most of us knew little about it. Went
to Beaufort to setup the new RATCC.
Because of good tail winds I took off in 146858 at night planning to go
nonstop on 6Nov59. At El Toro I could not get
any wx info on Beaufort and SAV was 2,000' ceiling (but no starter). So
I filed to Dallas with the intentions of
refilling passing Dallas. While airborne the only info I could get on
Beaufort was no GCA. So I turned back and landed
at Dallas. And returned to El Toro. The reason there was no info on
Beaufort was because HURRICANE GRACIE had just
passed thru and west coast wx was not reporting it. The base and
Capehart housing were severely damaged.
Kent and I also used the photo F8 at Yuma as umpires/chase for 251
before they went over seas. The cockpits smelled like
a new caddie.
Tom Rochford
647
Regarding the plastic bag misadventures, I only had to use one once in
an F-8, but it was memorable. I was on a Sunday
afternoon triple cycle in VFP-206 in the early '80s. Departed NAF
Washington for Pinecastle EW Range in FL for a mapping
mission. Bingoed to Cecil for the hot pits and then back to Pinecastle
and back to Cecil for more gas. I had been
prudent enough to take along a MAF bag (the Navy zip lock plastic bag
for Maintenance Action Forms) just in case. Well,
after my second trip through the hot pits at Cecil, I figured I better
answer the call. The field was empty that day.
As I was taxiing from the pits to the hold short on RWY 9L,I completely
filled the MAF bag (and could have used a second
one). My plan was to toss the football sized bag of pee over the side
and be on my way.It was packedI barely got the
zip lock closed. At any rate, due to the canopy retaining strap on the
starboard side, I planned to use my left hand to
loft the bag over the canopy and into the grass off the starboard side
of the aircraft. Bad idea. My wrist hit the
canopy frame and the bag fell to the ground, but it didn't bust. Now
I've got a full bag of pee on the deck in the hold
short. Since there were no other airplanes (or anything for that
matter) around, I decided to run over it with my port
main mount. Well, as I eased forward, leaning over the left side to
line up the main mount for a center shot, all that
happened was the football shaped bag just rolled away from the tire.
Undeterred, I tried again-and again-and again.
No luck. It was too big for the tire. Then I figured I'd melt it with
my exhaust or blow it into the grass. So, I
lined up in front of it using the viewfinder (with one more
unsuccessful slashing attack with the nose gear thrown in)
and went to MRT. When I taxied around, it was still there! By now the
tower called and asked me what I was doing. I
came up with some lame excuse about precision taxi practice or
something. I figured I'd try one more time to melt it
with a little burner. It was a large hammerhead at Cecil. Well, that
didn't work eitherit was unscathed and unmoved.
Finally admitting defeat to a bag of pee (and wasting too much gas), I
told Ground that there was some FOD in the hold
short, and I got the heck out of there. Must have been some surprised
(and pissed off?) airfield ops folks who found the
football of pee.
Moon Rivers
648
I do remember one night on a double cycle Barcap (A-3 tanker provided
the gas) flying loose on Dave Metzler's
(Thunderlips) wing and using the plastic bag for necessary relief.
Heck, the night trap on Hancock was a piece of cake
compared to that.
Dick Newton
649
I must have been behind the curve with the plastic bags. One dark
night, I had too much coffee and was looking for
something to use when I spotted the goose neck flashlight hanging right
in front of me. I took off the cap, stowed the
batteries in a pocket, filled it up and screwed the bottom back on.
Good thing they were water tight! Went and checked
out an extra one the next day, put it in the helmet bag and never
worried again!
Tom Klein
650
Departed Miramar w/Ron Sonniksen, landed at Barbers Pt. some 5 hours
later. Shut
down and leaned over the side to hand the plane captain a half-full
white plastic bag knotted at the top. He looked-up
and said "what's in there?" I said "goldfish"; he looked at me kind of
goofy and walked away with it dangling from his
hand to places unknown.
Jay Miller
651
Departed NAF China Lake early one evening. Too soon after takeoff
diarrhea tried to take over. I quickly dumped fuel,
declared a semi-emergency. Tower asked what was the nature of my
emergency. I said "I'll tell you after I land." When
they saw me running for the hanger, they got the answer.
Dick Partridge (PS, I made it.)
652
Three of us RAG students on the night tanking hop. Lead was very
senior, later a
multi-star flag. Not a great stick, however. Bad night for viz. We were
doing a tacan rendezvous with a VC-7 A-4 tanker
near San Clemente. All three of us knew we were on the wrong radial,
holding in the wrong direction, but didn't quite
know how to tell the lead. Lead put us in right echelon and constantly
turned into and away from us searching for the
tanker. Hard turn into us, then he spotted the green light and did a
hard turn away. Number 4, (later Blue Angel)
getting spit out after going to idle then military, lit the burner
trying to catch up and had a giant compressor stall. Thirty feet of
fire out of both ends of the Crusader. Lead sends him home, now there
are three of us. Join the tanker
and the other guy goes in first. Basket lips the probe, flies up and
comes down through the canopy into his lap. Then
it flies up, tearing away his mask and banging up his mouth and nose.
Crusader goes into a major dive as FRP tries to
get everything under control. Lead says, "How's your cabin pressure"
(????). FRP says, "Looks ok, showing 16,000
feet". Lead takes him home and now there is oneme. I say, "Can I hit
the tanker?" Lead says, "No, can't do it
without an instructor". Exactly zero blocks checked that night.........
Ed Brown
653
Thanks for the memory Lobo. When the probe hit my head, it kinda
stunned me and 16,000 ft cabin pressure altitude seemed
OK since that's where we were (and it was a very small gauge). I do
remember being worried about the face curtain
getting blown out into the air stream and taking me on a ride that I
didn't want to take, so I gingerly reached up with
both hands locked as best possible to adjust the top mirror to keep an
eye on the handle, and lowered the seat as low as
possible to get the handle out of the jet stream. Rainy, cold, and 100
miles to sea - straight in to 6L. That dive was
the proper result of enough nose down trim to break away from the
tanker, just in case........!
Litning Phelps
654
About 15 years ago I had a fascinating conversation with Ron Luther
where he related his experience in going off the
business end of the carrier (Independence, I suppose.) Stayed in the
cockpit and went underneath the ship and through
one of the screws, which chopped the F8 into 3 pieces. He said he
popped out the other end of the carrier, and was
rescued from his third of the F8, which was semi floating. Hopefully
there's someone out there that can expound on the
accident.
Willy Carroll
655
Turns out, I was aboard on that same lousy dragged-out qual cruise,
having gone off the front end of that same boat on a
“non-shot” a couple nights earlier – 28
Feb to be exact – and after having been picked up by the
destroyer USS Manley,
DD 940 and riding her for about 36 hours until the WX was suitable for
helo-by-sling lift back to Independence, got
back on board around noon on 2 March, waiting around to finish my last
couple night traps.
Ron was still somewhere along the line of getting the required six
night traps – had one or two traps that finished with
noticeable right to left drift on final and rollout. Not sure which
attempt it was, but on the bad one, he came across
the ramp drifting more left across the centerline, and when he caught a
wire, dragged it out well to port, and with the
hook attached, went over the port side. So the a/c hung up there
momentarily, before dropping off the deck edge
somewhere just short of the aft end of the deck edge elevator. Somehow,
he ended up in the water, having seriously
injured his left shoulder and had a tear in his poopy suit –
water was cold, but no recall of temp.
Once again, Manley to the rescue, and picked him up.
Having just got back aboard from Manley myself that forenoon, and
still being evaluated by the Flight Surgeon myself, got in on the
debrief, where Ron and I compared notes on how the
Destroyer sailors had treated us – (which was great). At that
time, Ron told us that he had opened the canopy, and
managed to drop out of the cockpit from some unknown height below the
flight deck – having apparently torn his poopy
suit, but most disturbing, had landed hard on his left shoulder, and
found it more or less useless. Sure enough, he
would demonstrate that his arm just sort of “hung
there.”
Back then we understood that Ron’s machine had dropped clear
of the ship and sunk in the wake, and that Manley had
retrieved him – very cold, and with the useless left arm.
Next couple days, I was preoccupied with getting my flight gear
repaired; getting a couple refresh traps, and getting
back to finishing my few night traps. Left most of the subsequent
details of the Ron Luther incident well behind – I
just wanting to finish up and get the hell off that boat.
Seems I managed to finish up the RAG, joined a squadron or so, and
survived Crusaders – hairy stories and all – for
another eight years. No recall when, along the way I read the details
of the bummer-traumatic bad trap that Ron had
experienced. Guess at the time, I was so grateful for having survived
my own wild ride, that just being able to play
fighter pilot was enough.
The folks who have know Ron over the intervening decades have well
covered a great life that he built after getting shot
out of the Crusader saddle way back then. It is always a hurt to lose
someone who led such a productive and successful
life, but good to know that they made a difference.
Have none a good few fine Marine friends and aviators. Don’t
know how to do the “ooharoohah” thing, but us Navy
types
sometimes use
Semper Fly,
Bill Brandel
656
One memorable event occurred when two young
“nuggets” brought dates into the Mustin Beach
Officer’s Club on Friday
during Happy Hour. In those days long ago it was an unwritten law that
women were not allowed in the Bar at the Club
during that “bonding” time amongst Naval Aviators.
Sounds archaic now but those were the rules then. Ron and I casually
strolled over and “suggested” that they leave and
return at 1800 when wives and girlfriends were welcome.They
indignantly refused, Keep in mind that they were Ensigns, Ron was a
Marine Captain and I was a Navy Lieutenant and we
were in uniform wearing wings and ribbons and these young men were
flight students. Bad move on their part. We did not want to start a
scene so we put our heads together and came up with a plan. Between Ron
and I we knew the
words to ever rotten bawdy drinking song ever written and there was a
fellow officer there who could play them on the
piano. By about the third or fourth song, with Ron and I attempting to
harmonize ( those of you who have heard him sing
can just imagine what we sounded like) and most of the other officers
who knew the words joining in, the two “nuggets”
decided that the tender ears of their shouldn’t hear those
words and abruptly departed the scene. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. The word
must have gotten around to the rest of the youngsters because we never
saw any ladies at Happy Hour in the
O’Club at Pensacola again while we were there.
Fang Liberato
-557
Many thanks for the 'Crusader Pilot's Creed'. This has to have been
written by Ron Rypel. I served with him in VT-7, NAS
Meridian circa 1962-3 as a plow back instructor after getting my wings.
It all fits as I remember him as a fellow of
cool wit and a talent for writing. He penned another famous ditty about
serving in Miss in those days. It had to do with
the Gov Ross Barnett who was in trouble for something and having to
endure 'huge dripping pools of sweat' just being
there. The base had only been open about a few months when I went
through as a student in VT-7, rustic living at best,
no club, gravel roads. Had to fly booze in with weekly runs to
Pensacola club to load up the BOQ with the base twin
Beech as it was a dry state then. The local sheriff found out about it
and tried to make a raid with a show of force
that got stopped at the gate by some tough Marines who told him what to
do with his tin star. Lot of color in those
days. I got orders to the F8 RAG out of there and then to VF-194, I was
about to find out what REAL color was. Wouldn't
trade anything for those days and the great guys I met along the way.
Dudley Moore
658
I, on a test flight off the carrier for an engine replacement had just
gotten airborne from the CAT, came out of burner
and the engine went to full power. I could not get the throttle to move
as it was frozen. I had the gear down and then
used the breaks to keep from exceeding the gear down limits on speed.
Another squadron mate had just launched and heard
my call to Pri-fly on the problem. Of course there was no way the
carrier could recover me due to the excess speed I was
unable to control. The decision was made to send me to Danang Air Base.
My Wingman Harry Sexton had many hours in type
and in talking to me on the radio brought up the subject of a procedure
in the ops manual for such a runaway engine,
which required flying the aircraft thru a so called window or Hoop in
the landing pattern and shutting down the fuel to
the engine and gliding onto the runway.
This was in theory and had never been tried or attempted in actual
flight. We discussed this procedure at great length
on the way from the Carrier to Danang. Harry was reading the procedure
to me and verifying each check point as to the
proper altitude and airspeed. When we hit the so-called window he
called shut it down, the first time at the window my
finger would not turn the master fuel off, I said let’s look
at it one more time.
So on the third look at the window I turned off the master fuel and the
engine wound down and I made the runway just as
advertised, rolled out on the runway and got towed in. Engine was
replaced three days later, after some great happy
hours with a sister F8 Squadron VMF-232, I made it back to the Oriskany
and more flights over the north.
Morris “Moose” Lutes
659
Marion Carl and Jimmy Thach prompt a comment. I knew 'em both,
especially Marion, and it's noteworthy that neither
drank much. In fact, Marion hardly at all. But they both understood the
value of adult beverages ref. male bonding and
unit integrity and stuff. During an RON somewhere (I've long since
forgotten) Marion was awakened at the BOQ by some
USMC JO rowdinessand of course you've never really been exposed to JO
rowdiness until you've been exposed to USMC JO
rowdiness. Marion got up and went directly to the scene and surveyed it
with that hazel-eyed gunslinger stare.
Immediate silence. (I'm uncertain whether it was in fact the
steely-eyed stare or the fact that none of the miscreants
had ever seen a two-star in his PJ's. But the effect was the same.) He
just said, "Keep it down, fellows," and went
back to bed. Later he admitted that for decorum's sake maybe he
could've put on a bathrobe.
Barrett Tillman
660
After the Pueblo was the BonneHomme Richard was the first carrier to
arrive into the Sea of Japan with Air Wing 5 aboard
and the F-8 squadrons VF-53 and VF-51. We were called off Yankee
Station and sailed full speed North. Apparently the
only aircraft in the theater were two AF F-4's with nukes, so we were
really the first combat forces to 'show the flag'.
I really do mean that all we did was 'show the flag'. Here we were with
the North Korean Order of Battle showing 600
MIGs in their inventory, although many were -17s and -19s, and we had
maybe 25 fighters between us, which put us at a
very slight disadvantage. We had to wear the claustrophobia inducing
poopy suits on all flights off the coast of
course, but the worst order we had to follow was the use of dummy
sidewinders on every flight. I guess the incompetents
at Disneyland East did not want a bunch of fighter pilots defending
themselves against the Koreans or the Soviets that
daily flew over in their Bears and Bisons from Vladivostok (where the
Pueblo was taken long before we got to Wonson
Harbor). It did get a little tense when the Ruskies decided to show us
that they could pop up from four different
directions at the same time within 20 miles of the boat. Definitely not
like the choreographed intercepts on regular
Pacific crossings. At the time we felt that we were expendable bait
with distrust that we wouldn't flop over and die if
attacked. I suspect that Washington and Moscow had made Rules of
Engagement so as not to escalate to a full war. We
didn't have the manpower to fight two Asian wars at the same time and
would have gone nuclear if the carrier were
attacked. Many officers and I were disgusted at the cowardly actions of
our government over the lack of response to the
seizure of the Pueblo and also over the cover up and acceptance of the
Israeli attack on the USS Liberty the year
before, with the murder of 31 American sailors. We also knew the
treatment our Pueblo crew members were receiving as
most of our instructors at escape, evasion, and POW schools were POW's
during the Korean War. Dummy missiles- like
arming Marines with water pistols, like arming riot police with Nerf
batons, a Battleship with .22s, and on and on. How
come nobody ever told the truth about our "Rescue"? We weren't even
allowed to wear our patches that read "USS Pueblo
Rescue- What's one little ship to a Great Big Navy?
George Hise
661
Seeing Dave Cowles' post about flying a little tight on Commander
Donnelly reminded me of this incident, which I think
may have occurred on the same Yuma weapons detachment. I hope my memory
isn't too fuzzy and I know Dave and Sapphire
will keep me straight. In early April, '67, Commander Donnelly
(“Sapphire” was his call sign as I remember) led a
colorful group of FRP's and instructors to Yuma for 10 days or so of
weapons training. The FRP's, among several others,
included Norm McCoy and Snake Alsup; the instructors besides Dave
Cowles included Lt Jerry Unruh among several. It was
all gunnery and some air-to-ground work, a typical FRP introduction to
our weapons. Many debriefing hours were spent at
Winterhaven and San Luis resulting in short, hungover briefs for the
early gun hops. The Det had to have a name so we
came up with “Sapphire’s Jewels”. There
was a Marine F-4 unit from El Toro training there also, and we had
frequent,
impromptu, unbriefed air-to-air training with them when fuel
permitted...and sometimes didn’t permit. I think it was
Norm McCoy who charmed somebody at the local Holiday Inn to put the
following on their marquee in front for all to see:
“Nobody licks Sapphire’s Jewels” It
stayed up for a few days. Towards the end of the Det, a flight (I was
airborne but
not in this flight) led by Sapphire was working a target over with
Zunis and strafing when Sapphire’s engine quit on him
for reasons I don’t remember. He didn’t have a lot
of altitude and I think someone said on the radio to “thumb
the
igniter's and come around the horn!” That was tried to no
avail and then he donated that bird to the desert. As I
recall, he only made a couple of swings in the chute before hitting the
sand. It was some ending to a great detachment.
(You guys who were there fill in the blanks and correct the errors).
John Braly
662
I must say that the "gotcha" that Dave Cowles related about me recently
had slipped my memory. Reading his account
brought the memory back very vividly. I will recount from my
perspective. After dropping the banner, I accelerated to
re-enter and noticed that the escort, whom I assumed was a FRP, was
executing an excellent rendezvous so I continued the
turn accelerating to a good clip to give the USMC a show. When I tried
to roll out to depart the pattern I had to put
in considerable aileron because the "FRP" was in so tight. Once
straight and level, I gave him a move out signal since
he was on me like another coat of paint and for all I know he was going
to end my life and his in a ball of fire. He
acknowledged the signal with a thumbs up and slight head nod, but
stayed where he was. He was very cool. Being the
patient type, I gave him another signal that he responded to in the
same manner, but did nothing. We entered the break
with me having a good deal of trim into him, and what must have looked
like one F8 from the ground. Break, land, etc. I
could hardly wait to get in the RR to have a debrief with the flight,
and this guy who wouldn't follow instructions.
You read the rest from him. Gun dets were really a hoot in those days
with such talented folks as the instructors - what
a group, two flights a day and all the rest.
The one problem I kept experiencing det's after det (and I must say I
loved them) was insuring that the Unruh control
officer got him back from Winterhaven for his morning hop!!!
Ray Donnelly
664
your mention of the Navy Hymn, Eternal Father, triggered some fond
memories.As a member of NAVCAD class of 22-52, I
sang with the Naval Aviation Cadet Choir during my time in Preflight.
My family had sung around the piano all my young
life, and I had been a Glee Club in college. So I was glad to be
accepted as a Choir member. As best as I recall, we
added an aviation verse to the Navy Hymn.
Not having a car, I didn't continue my participation at Whiting Field.
It was a great bunch of guys, and some fine
singers among us . We made trips to Minneapolis, Seattle, Chicago, and
New York, singing at various events. In New York
we sang on the Ed Sullivan show, where he announced, "Ladies and
Gentlemen, these men are the cream of the crop!"
What a great way to get out of Pensacola for weekends. (Less
competition to find a girl friend!) One of our group was
NavCad Ed Coleman. Later, upon his receiving wings and commission, the
Navy assigned him to take charge of the Cadet
Choir. As a Naval Aviator, he could fly the choir on its trips. It
would not have been my choice, as I was eager to get
to the fleet, but it seemed like a dream job, particularly for someone
as talented and well-prepared as Ed. Anyway, I
never saw Ed again, as our paths had diverged permanently, and we had
not been close buddies. About a year ago, a friend
sent me what had been a 45 rpm recording of Ed leading the Naval Air
Training Command Choir. The record had been adapted
for use on a computer, and I really enjoyed listening to stuff we had
sung more than50 years earlier.
My first squadron sang a lot (most of the songs with unprintable
lyrics) but thereafter, I never heard much singing
among Navy units. On a Crusader photo detachment, our Photo
Interpreter, John B. Stetson IV, had been a Whiffenpoof at
Yale. We managed to entertain together a time or 2. I missed it in my
reserve squadrons. Lots of jokes, but not much
music. For the last 25 years or so, my singing has been with church
choirs. I'm no star, but I enjoy it. I'd love to
hear from anyone who sang with the NavCad Choir in the fifties. How
many of us could be left?
Slim Tinsley
665
I was in the NAVCAD Choir in the 1954-55 timeframe (class 42-54H) Ed
Coleman was the director. We also sang Ed Sullivan,
Perry Como (one of those two was on the USS Antietam anchored in the
Hudson) and the Hollywood Bowl Easter Sunday '55.
During rehearsal Ed was thrown into the pool. Don't know why. I have a
photo of him conducting afterwards wet trousers
and all. Gene Howey (sp?) was there with us at the Bowl and soon
thereafter took over the choir. We had a great farewell
party for Ed in Providence. I never lost my place in the training
order. We were given priority when back from travel. I
remember the Miss Universe Contest because I had my "Wings" and Ensign
bars but the girls were more interested in the
singing NAVCADs!!!! and that's the way it was. I have nothing but "good
green memories" of the time in the choir. I
remain in touch with two others who were in the choir at the same time,
Ralph Burr, who ended up in VF-53 with me out of
training, and John Wade who lives on the West coast.
Fred Blakeman
666
Don't know if Jay Miller remembers recalls on that Yuma Acdutra when
the Phantom guys from Miramar jumped us while on
the range. Three or four minutes later there was a Crusader on the tail
of every one of the Phantoms and they went back
to California with their tail between their legs.
The hardest pill for them to swallow was to hear that a former S2 pilot
in the squadron was one of those chewing up the
backside of the F-4. Those were great days.
Bob Paschall
667
Vietnam 1967, A Whale Tale
The Russian "Trawlers" (Russian AGI) with what looked like one thousand
"fishing" antennas plied the Gulf of Tonkin on a
daily basis...needless to say, it was a cat and mouse game to see what
havoc they could expend towards our two carriers
operating there 24 hours a day. Since the U.S. government had
proclaimed the waters of the Gulf of Tonkin three miles off the coast
of North
Vietnam and Hanan Island, People's Republic of China, to be
international waters, American ships in the Gulf were bound
to obey the international rules of the road for ocean navigation. This
meant that if the Russian ship maneuvered herself into the path of an
aircraft carrier where said Russian
ship had the right of way, the carrier had to give way even if she was
engaged in launching or recovering aircraft. The
navigation officer was constantly trying to maneuver the ship so that
the trawler wouldn't be able to get in position to
abuse the rules of the road and gain the right of way. Sometimes he was
successful in sucking the trawler out of
position, but the room available for the ship to maneuver was limited
by our on-station requirements, and sometimes the
trawler was successful interrupting our flight operations.
The pilots of the air wing were strictly forbidden to take
any action against the Russian ship, but on this day CDR John Wunche,
the commanding officer of the heavy tanker KA-3B
detachment, had finally had enough of the Russians' antics.
John Wunche was a big man with bright red hair and a flaming red
handlebar mustache. He was a frustrated fighter pilot
whom fate and the Bureau of Naval Personnel had put into the cockpit of
a former heavy bomber now employed as a carrier-
based tanker. CDR Wunche flew the tanker like a fighter and frequently
delighted the tactical pilots by rolling the
"Whale," as we all called the KA-3B tanker, on completion of a tanker
mission. Consequently John 's nickname was "The
Red Baron." On 21 July 1967 he proved just how appropriate that name
was.
The "Bonnie Dick" had nearly completed a recovery. The Russian trawler
had been steaming at full speed to try to cut
across our bow, and the bridge watch had been keeping a wary eye on the
intruder. For a while it looked as if the
Russian would be too late, and we would finish the recovery before
having to give way to the trawler. But a couple of
untimely bolter's extended the recovery time, and the Bon Homme Richard
had to back down and change course to comply
with the rules.
The LSO hit the wave-off lights when the "Whale" was just a few yards
from the ramp. John crammed on
full power and sucked up the speed brakes for the go-around. The
"Bonnie Dick" began a sharp right turn to pass behind
the Russian, causing the ship to list steeply, and there, dead ahead of
John , was the Russian trawler. He couldn't
resist. He leveled the "Whale" about a hundred feet off the water and
roared across the mast of the Trawler with all
fuel dumps open like a crop duster spraying a field of boll weevils.
The Russian disappeared in a heavy white cloud of
jet fuel spray then reemerged with JP-4 jet fuel glistening from her
superstructure and running lip-full in the
scuppers. The Russian trawler immediately lost power as the ship's crew
frantically tried to shut down anything that
might generate a spark and ignite the fuel.
She was rolling dead in the water in the Bon Homme Richard's wake, the
crew breaking out fire hoses to wash down the
fuel, as we steamed out of sight completing the recovery of the Whale.
The Red Baron was an instant hero to the entire
ship's company.
668
While I was in DCA earning about the FAA Lorrane and I lived in DCA at
the Watergate, our house keeper in Westport had a
fire in the basement, and I lost one full box, and part of another
before the fire Dept arrived. That box contained many
un-replaceable photos, documents etc of past events. How could one show
the first U.S. Naval Aviator to try a steam
catapult, was Not on a U.S. Cv. Further, that event was on the British
Carrier, Perseus!. And, even more interesting,
the A.C Carrier for the shot was- NOT EVEN AT SEA! Yes, the first U.S.
Navy Aviator steam catapult shot was from the
Perseus, AND, it was tied up at the Navy Shipyard, on the river, in
PHILADELPHIA PA!. I know, I refused to attempt it
until they proved to me how it worked., and with a full Wt Load. They
did so, with a shot of 40,000 pounds!The damn
thing went over half way across the river! So, I felt just a little
more comfortable at trying it with a completely
unleaded F2H Banshee, with only 800 pounds of fuel, just enough to make
two circle of the field and land after the shot,
unless I had to swim back! But, the fire at my home destroyed all my
photos so be it. But, it leads to why the
combination of Marion Carl, XF7U, F7U-3, and SecNav came about will
follow up, after a period of "pulling things
together!"
JL Helms
669
Didn't Tarzan Nunn "DITCH" an F-8 off the catapult, and eject under
water?
Never forget Tarzan. 6" 20" 230# dripping wet, carried a 44 magnum with
125 rounds of ammo individually tied together so
they wouldn't spill, and I think he even carried a rappelling kit with
him, and Lord knows what else- he would have
definitely "John Wayned" himself out of any E and E he experienced. We
figured he weighed close to 300# when he climbed
into the cockpit. Figured that if he ever did have to eject in the
actual air, not under water, that the seat would have
started up the rails, felt all that weight, and said "screw it" and
just drop back into the cockpit.
Bubba/Track/Half Track/Wide Track Meyers aka Frank Meyers
-570
Sorry if I missed a few great stories: did anyone mention Jim "Grumpy"
Lusk's water landing off the Bonnie Dick's
starboard Cat? I was right behind the JBD when Jim's burner blew out
during the stroke. I had the "best seat in the
house" to watch the spectacular event. I remember keying my mic and
shouting "EJECT, EJECT, EJECT". As the ship turned
to avoid the crash site (a large circle of bubbles) I saw Grumpy pop up
to the surface with his flashlight in hand! No
kidding - it was a dawn launch and I guess he wanted to be seen :-)
Steve Russ
671
Russ Longley F8U-1T
“Big Bad Billy” (Phillips) stormed into
the gunnery briefing and said, “Son you don’t have
to
preflight your aircraft this morning because you are going to fly with
me in the F8U-1T. The Chance-Vought crew will get
the aircraft ready for us. They are trying to sell it to the
Navy.”
I still remember that day in May of 1962 at VF-174. I had heard a lot
about “Big Bad Billy” from the other students
around the Acey Ducey tables in the Ready Room. Now, I get too, or got
too, fly with this Fighter Pilot legend in a
Crusader. In fact, I think that I was the only student to fly in the
F8U-1T, or at least the first student to fly in
that bird. Billy said, “Jump in the front seat and
let’s pull out of the chocks aggressively smart because a
bunch of
eyeballs will be watching us, and we sure as hell want to look real
sharp.”
The new spotless F8U-1T looked great. Four LTV tech reps dressed in
white gowns and glove, that looked as if they were
about to do major brain surgery, strapped us in and wiped the
windscreen. A small crowd had gathered and waved as we
taxied out the runway. Needless to say this young LTJG was a bit
nervous under these circumstances.
Much to my surprise and relief, Billy let me taxi out and lead the 1st
section take-off of a flight of four. The F8U-1T
flew like a brand new 2NE. It was very tight, quick and nimble and
responsive, and it even smelled like a new car. The
aircraft flew around the gun pattern with power to spare. The
afterburner lit without hesitation. CDR Phillips was
complimentary about my gun pattern set-up and integrity. He let me fly
all but two gun runs, which he flew and
consistent with his reputation, he pressed in on the target.
When we hit Bingo fuel he said not to call it and embarrass ourselves
because another pilot would soon call Bingo. Just
a few seconds later another pilot in the flight called Bingo and we
headed for Cecil Field. Billy outsmarted the system
again.
Cecil Tower cleared the firing group for a high speed left break on
runway 36R. I was cocked to snatch the aircraft
into a hard left break over the numbers, like my instructor, Duke
Hernandez, had taught me.
CDR Phillips said, “I have the aircraft!”
With the fuel state showing 800 lb and the RED Low Level Light ON, he
banged the burner, snatched the aircraft up hill
into a rolling vertical climb to 10,000 feet.
He came out of burner, while inverted, reduced the power to idle and
said, “I used to do this all the time in the FORD
(F-4D). You know the FORD held the time to climb record to 10,000 feet.
You have the aircraft; now show me how you are
going to get this machine on the ground before we run out of
gas.”
That was pure Billy Phillips and we were where we were, whether or not
I liked it and that was well below LOW fuel
state. I hurried down to the airport, hung everything out and got on
the concrete as quickly as I could. Admittedly, I
puckered a bit. A big guy swinging a 20 lb sledge hammer could not have
driven a darning needle into the part of my
private anatomy that was sucking up the seat pan when I sneaked a peek
at the fuel gauge. I hoped that those LTV techs
had calibrated it correctly. They must have because the engine
didn’t flame-out when the gauge showed 200 lbs remaining.
That’s my recollection of flying the F8U-1T on a gunnery hop
with CDR Billy Phillips rolled up into a composite
anecdote. LTV gave us lapel pins that had two circles with a red
background and two hands holding two control sticks.
It was quite nice and definitely, one of a kind memento.
672
The comments on LSO grading reminds me of the huge difference in
emphasis on landing performance in the Tonkin Gulf
boats and the Med boats. I made two combat cruises on Hancock in '66
and '67. Two things were important - get it
aboard the first time and do it quickly. It was a sin to bolter or have
a long interval. How you got it aboard, as
long as you did it safely, was not important. In '68 I flew a
replacement RF8G and pilot (me) from Miramar to the Shang
in the Med and got introduced to the 6th fleet way. LSO grades were
BIG! They kept big colored charts in the ready
rooms. Everyone waited after a recovery for the LSO's appearance. He
was a very important person. Not that he wasn't
on the Hancock, but there we often did not have the luxury of time for
a chat. On Shang, bolters were okay, just as
long as you flew an OK pass. (Actually, that was a good way of getting
an additional green square on the chart and
improve your batting average.) I had to learn a whole new way of
landing the F8! I still don't understand why those
boys got so upset when I gave the aircraft four chances to grab a wire
rather than two. The other big flying deal in
the Med was putting on airshows for visiting VIP's. Mitch never did let
me do the opening photo loop. I guess because
of my tendency to jink. (You never know when someone might be taking a
shot at you.) There were a lot of other
differences, the biggest of which was the availability of booze. There
was always plenty of booze on the Shang. That
would have been nice on Hancock, relieved the stress a bit. On Shang
there was a lot of stress over your landing
performance, so I guess it was a good thing they had all that booze.
Squirrel aka Len Johnson
673
I appreciated Len Johnson's comparison of WestPac vs. 6th fleet waving.
I was on the Shang when Len joined the photo
det, and still recall the first time I waved him.... well, at least the
in-close part, the rest of the pass must've been
fine 'cuz that isn't imprinted in my memory. Big play for the deck at
the ramp DFDAR underlined so big that I
instinctively hit the waveoff lights, and he still got a 3 wire.
Debrief went something like this: "Why did you give me
a waveoff? I nearly got an in-flight?" "Why did you drop the nose like
that? I kept you off the ramp!" Len doesn't
get all het up about things, so he just 'splained things, we reached an
understanding, and everybody lived happily ever
after.
Fireball (ramp expert)
674
Hello, Fireball! Thanks for your comments! I too remember
that pass and our conversation well. Boy! Those were fun
times! I am grateful to you and your compatriots for your part in
keeping idiots like me alive to fly another day. I
don't remember what color square on the BIG chart I got for that one. I
didn't have many green ones that first week
aboard Shang. My favorite LSO grade and debrief was for a night
landing. To the best recollection of this old geezer
it went something like this: "When you passed me there was no way you
could get aboard, so I gave you an OK 3."
Squirrel aka Len Johnson
675
[Larry Durbin's remarks] As I remember it, this was the last
recovery of the night. Only the Skipper, Stolly
Stollenwerck, and I were in the ready room watching the recovery on the
plat. When Stolly saw the fireball, he turned
to me and said,"Get out the next of kin report. We just lost Dave."
=============
The Sermon On The Ramp
A few guys have asked why I haven't added my tale to the sea stories.
Here it is, in a nutshell: I screwed up a night
approach, blew up my F-8 on the ramp, flopped in the water, and was
picked up by a tin can. I'm not particularly proud
of wrecking a machine I loved to fly.
By rights I should have been fishfood; that I wasn't, I firmly believe
is because there is a God, who employs guardian
angels (those assigned to nugget Crusader pilots really racked up the
overtime), and who listens to those little pre-cat
prayers. Read on; count the screw ups, count the dang-nears, then you
decide. It sure as heck wasn't skill on my part
that cheated the fishies.
Off the cat, AOA dropped to zero. Pretty soon, it came back on, seemed
to work o.k. Suggested to my fearless leader
that we join up before marshall for an a/s-AOA check, then we went on
about our business and both forgot about it.
When I popped the boards leaving marshall, it went to zero again, then
came back on. Too late to bother anybody now, so
carry on. Dirty up, donut & a/s don't match for fuel load a/s
is a few knots slow, but AOA was boresighted just
before launch & sister squadron had recently had a couple bad
a/s indicators, so I bet AOA is more correct. APC check -
- APC doesn't engage. O.k., manual pass. Sure looks dark out there;
oops, wing lites have gone out. Well, turn on the
rotator and crack the probe door so the probe light comes on, maybe
paddles can still see me o.k. Call the ball, manual,
AOA seems to be responding o.k., I'm actually holding a donut most of
the time. Paddles, however, sees only a "fast"
approach lite the entire approach. The rotator and probe light don't
give very good clues, so paddles checks the SPN-12
(approach speed radar) readout. SPN-12 is down. Paddles now has no way
to judge distance, glide path or attitude (which
is directly related to AOA, and therefore a/s), and thinks I'm fast as
a bat.
Going a little high in close, make a correction apparently right at the
burble. Ball is coming down, no dropping
down, cob it & rotate, this ain't good, hit burner! Paddles
first clue about how close the aircraft was, was when I
appeared in the floodlights, low and nose high, and sinking - still
showing a "fast" approach lite. The burner lit just
as the wheels hit the rounddown and broke the airplane in half. Fuel
tanks erupted, the burner lit the fuel, and the
guys who were on the roof told me it was the most glorious explosion
they had ever seen. The whole works continued up
the angle, with the aft half doing a somersault in the fireball.
My brain may have been a bit scrambled from the impact, but something
told me that it was too quiet in there, and too
bright outside, and besides you shouldn't be going sideways across the
#4 wire, you should leave now. Wait, sit up
straight before you pull the curtain. Oops, cant't get it over my
helmet now, I'll duck a little then straighten up
when it clears the helmet, there, now pull hard. I didn't feel a thing,
but heard this loud bang and saw a bright flash
below so figured the seat must have fired. Quick, grab and pull the
toggles on the MKIII-C. I was pulling them when I
heard another loud "crack" and felt a real jolt that yanked my hands
off the toggles. Then, darkness.
The remnents had left the angle, rolled left and entered the water
inverted. Apparently the seat fired at 90 degrees of
bank or so, because no one saw the canopy or seat leave (and there was
no PLAT tape to review because that was down
too). The jolt was the seat hitting the water, the "crack" was the
drogue gun firing. One of the CO2 cartridges had
been activated, so one cell of the MKIII inflated.
Pretty soon I regained some level of consciousness, and noticed this
odd view of the ship, getting smaller and appearing
and disappearing behind waves. Then I saw this wing nearby, so I
grabbed on to it. Dang, cut my hand in the the gap
between the outer wing panel and main panel droops. What's all that
yelling about? There's another ship. There's a
horse collar. Maybe I'll grab that and let go of this wing. Now they're
trying to lift me up but I can't hang on
anymore. When I fell back in, I went under for a while, sucking in a
lot of sea water and suddenly becoming aware that
HEY MAN I'M DROWNING HERE. Shriek a bunch, grab that horsecollar again
and go into lock mode.
They had been yelling at me to grab the horsecollar, because they could
see that the wing was sinking on the chute,
which the drogue gun had yanked out. It sank just as they pulled me
clear. On the second attempt to hoist me aboard,
Ens. Bob Hendricks went over the side to hold my head out of the water,
SN Snodgrass (duty swimmer) got me into the
horsecollar again, and when nobody could get the chute released, the
XO, LCDR Furey, got a knife, climbed down the cargo
net (which was hung over the side for just such events) and cut the
shroud lines. It still took 5 men to haul me up,
because the vent hose to the poopy suit had ripped out instead of
disconnecting on ejection, so the poopy suit was full
of water.
When I was laid out on a wardroom table and my flight gear was being
cut off with knives and scissors, it finally dawned
on me what had happened. I got pretty upset, because there were a lot
of men - including my Line Division plane
captains - on the flight deck where I had strewn flying and flaming
debris. I insisted that they radio the carrier to
see if anyone on the roof had been injured; when the word came back
that no one had, I relaxed... and promptly passed
out again.
The scariest part of the whole deal was when the helo guys picked me up
from the tincan the next morning. They trussed
me up like a turkey in this wire basket stretcher, hoisted me to the
hovering helo, and after pulling the thing just
halfway into the helo's cabin, went roaring off to the Shang. I was
sure I was going to slide out and go "bloop".
So,instead of becoming Charlie the Tuna's revenge, I became "Fireball".
At the time, I was sure that my Naval Aviatin' days were over. Stolly
Stollenwerck was my Skipper, Pete Easterling XO.
Stolly and Pete came to sick bay to hear my side of the tale. I can
hear Stolly to this day: "Well, Dave, are you going
to stay with us?". I couldn't believe it; I have a choice???. I said
"Yes sir, if you'll let me." He said,"Oh, sure,
Dave", in that fatherly manner of his.
As a sidebar, after recuperating for about 30 days, my first flite
after getting my "up chit" had an inauspicious
beginning. First a/c went down on start, resked for next launch, down
again with hydraulic leak, resked as spare for
next launch, & the spare was made a "go" bird. On the cat,
shooter touched the deck & nothing happened; suspended,
tried again - and again -and again. It finally fired on the 5th. try.
By that time I had developed a morbid curiousity is this thing going to
work??? and was mentally prepared to climb out in the water on the
pointy end, but I dang
sure wasn't going to say "no" and have to go thru those butterflies for
yet another launch. Once the cat fired, it was
just like old times, no more than usual jitters on the trap.
This was my nugget cruise, and I didn't even have 50 total traps. By
the time I left VF-13, I had over 300 more traps
on the Shang, but didn't enjoy any of the night ones. Not even a little
bit. Daytime, tho, was a blast. Something that
surprised me was that I even enjoyed day traps more, thought they were
great sport. But not nites.
For what its worth,
I have never had bad dreams or nightmares or anything like that. I just
disliked night traps more intensely.
There were a lot of factors in my decision to leave the Navy after one
tour, but this was the biggest one. I had too
much fun with the airplane, and didn't use my head enough. I could read
the handwriting on the wall it said "You've
been warned enough times". Asking for shore duty, or VP, or somesuch,
just wasn't in the cards. You either have a
tailhook, or you're dogmeat. Or a civilian with good memories.
Dave Johnson
676
I cannot recall who was saddest the Brit aviators who were delivered to
the pier at Piraeus Greece by their Embassy
Limos because they could not pay for the $75.00 bottles of champagne
that they had bought for the girls that night OR
the next day when we "YANKS" watched all the ladies depart for the
British Carrier where the receptions all served real
"BOOZE"! I served on both coasts but most experience was in 6th Fleet
and Mediterranean. On Yankee station on 1971 and
1972 I remember some very good parties during the week as well as the
weekends. One participated as to whether one might
have the duty! While on FDR CVA-42 1959-1961 I had the only "REEFER' on
wheels in the 6th Fleet . I "smuggled" a "titty
pink" 5 foot reefer on board with squadron gear. Our stateroom" was
right next to port cat steam room. We had a curtain
, no door so I had a lock on it and chocks for the nights that that
dude got to rolling a bit. And there was one night
that it broke loose! One had to be very careful about bringing booze on
board. There were only a few idiots who partied
on weekends> I knew most of them! Hey, when you had Carrier CO's
who wanted to know what the engine manifold pressure
was just before you ejected you just better not be caught imbibing!
During those early times in the Jacksonville area
there was a lot of booze imported from "GITMO"! There was LCDR "Whiskey
" Brown who got hung for a load of holiday booze
back in 1959 that he was bringing back for COMFAIRJAX staff for
Christmas. YEP, Retired as LCDR, perhaps no fault of his
own??? Later, two RF8s collided over Doctor's Inlet. They were
returning from a Holiday run to GITMO! How can bottles of
booze survive a mid -air JP-4 explosion and live to float in Doctor's
inlet!!! Both pilots survived! After that local
FEDS started to check all returning a/c from Gitmo and also to really
inspect returning Carriers! On the way back from
MED I had many friends ready to throw Booze over the side... I
convinced them that I could take care of it! I removed at
least one thousand screws from around my bunk on FDR, inserted booze
and waited for return from yard to Mayport! NOT ONE
BOTTLE WAS THERE! MY BOATSWAIN MATE BROTHER FROM WWII warned me and I
did not listen! This was the BM Brother who was
sunk on the Murmansk Run but survived but just did not like "AIRDALES"!
The FEDS sent out BOOZE Tax bills to many people
who bought booze at GITMO and some paid. Most did not without
repercussion!
PJ Smith
677
Booze aboard ship? You gotta be kidding. In January '67 on the Handjob
my brother and I brought 11 cases of beer onboard
while we were at Pearl for the ADMAT. By the time we got to Yankee
Station there was none left (we shared). I remember
one particularly good party on the Bonnie Dick in '68 when we pulled of
Yankee and secured from condition Zulu halfway
to Cubi. Bob Heisner had a good sized stateroom and his roomie Sandy
Button was in Cubi. We must of had hundreds of
those awful Brandy miniatures saved from the missions that the docs
gave out. We had at least half the airwing pilots in
Bobs room when someone got the bright idea to call the ship's skipper.
We told him he didn't have a hair on his ass if
he didn't come down and have a drink or two. He said he was kind of
busy with steering the ship or some excuse, but he
would send the XO. The XO must have been a little taken aback, but he
only asked if we needed anything more. When we
joked we could use some ice he called sickbay and had them bring up 2
'ash' cans filled with ice they kept on hand to
reduce fevers or cool down patients. There was so much mess slogging
around the deck it was difficult to walk after
awhile. Felt sorry for Sandy when he came to his quarters the next day,
but he wasn't a big party type anyway.
George Hise
678
George Hise has a bad memory. The night of the Hancock party he refers
to, his brother and I were conducting bible study
in the ship's chapel. The real reason he was in my room was, his was
over 110 degs most nights.
Bob Heisner
679
Swede Hedberg recalls some fun:
Back in 1961 our squadron, VF-11, was based at Rota, Spain
and we were invited down to visit No. 28 Squadron, RAF
stationed at Gibraltar, nice party at their O’Club. They flew
the “Shackleton” aircraft, a four engined patrol
type
machine with a large crew. Needless to say we were not impressed with
their aircraft but avoided snide comments. As
superior, elite fighter pilots we were probably smartasses but that
comes with the territory. A few days later I was
up myself and flew down to Gib, called their tower and asked for a high
speed low pass with a high performance pullup
and announced that it was a salute to No. 28 Squadron. They said,
“I say Yank, bring it on”, (license to kill). Brits
are always so cool. I howled down the runway at over 600 knots in
afterburner and at minimum altitude, maybe 50 ft,
while car traffic was crossing the runway, then pulled up to the
vertical and did aileron rolls up out of sight to
paeans of admiring applause from the awestruck multitudes.. YEEEHAW !!.
Nice to give the locals a thrill now and then.
If I had done that these days I would have probably been hung by my
main thrust bearings from the radar mast. OWWICH !l
Note here: They did get miffed when we repeatedly
“hoorawed” the beach at Toromolinos, big tourist
spot on the
southeast coast of Spain.
Them were the days when we could fly all over the place and let it all
hang out !! We could get in fights with just
about anything except commercial airliners, they were strictly off
limits. SAC bombers got a bit peeved from time to
time, they had no sense of humor, besides it was like shooting at a
streetcar. The USAF F-104s based at Moron AFB, (yes
that’s how it was spelled) Spain were lots of fun though.
They could go like hell and do wonderous burner climbs to
somewhere near Saturn but when the air show was over there we were
waiting with slavering fangs. Being able to easily
outturn them they were easy meat when they finally came down low on
gas.
680
Maybe some airplanes are just cursed. Roger Box sends:
One of the earlier F8 folded wings episodes occurred at Naples. There a
star-crossed F8 was flown out of
Capadachino(Sp.) and returned and landed with the wings still folded. A
great guy was the pilot, Harry barnes as i
recall. His skipper or CAG made him wear a set of wings on his uniform
with the wing tips bent forward for the
remainder of the deployment.
I said star-crossed because earlier that particular aircraft had
experienced some difficulty that required it to be
flown from Spain to Naples to be worked on by Airfer, which i believe
was an Italian company we contracted to do air
frame work. In route to Italy at some altitude above the clouds (VFR on
Top was OK then) The Pilot, Lt 'Duke' Hernandez
experienced an electrical failure. Fortunately while almost running out
of fuel he spotted the west coast of Italy and
the airfield. He spiraled down through a hole and landed. One little
flaw - he was not in Italy he was in Yugoslavia
which was not an overly friendly Communist country under the dictator
Tito. If Duke is on this forum he more accurately
describe what then came to pass but suffice ti say that eventually we
got the airplane out of there and into Naples
where it subsequently had it's wings folded episode. A sidelight to
this at the time things we not going well
between the US and Cuba. When it was learned that a pilot from Puerto
Rico had flown the aircraft to Yugoslavia people
were a little concerned about what really went on. What really went on
was just as I have described it and Duke went on
to hold the various aviation commands befit a superb fighter pilot and
eventually retired as a VADM. 581
Whoever said that some birds were just jinxed was right. In a variation
of that, after I RAD-ed and became an attack
puke in the Reserves, it seemed like whichever airplane we MODEXed as
'402' carried a curse. After losing two '402' A4s
and two '402' A7s to engine failures, midairs, runway excursions, etc.
the squadron finally retired the number and the
XO's airplane became '403.' Up to then, the most common ready room
snivel was, "I don't see why I have to fly 402!"
Rocket 'last' usually ended up with it.
Joe Chronic
682
I was saddened to learn of the recent passing of Billy Phillips. I
never had the privilege of meeting him, but I can
relate the following story. In the late 1960,s and early 1970's, I was
a Reserve in VMF-511 flying F-8's out of NAS
Willow Grove. One week day, I was the only one scheduled to fly and
opted for an out-and-in to Navy Cecil. Returning
from Cecil, I accepted an intersection take-off (8,000 ft. remaining)
behind four heavily loaded A-4's (Six 500 lb.
bombs each). I rolled when #4 lifted off. I rotated and lifted off
normally, then experienced a compressor stall
(induced by wake turbulence?) which put me rather firmly and abruptly
back on the runway at 155 kts. I aborted, put the
hook down, missed the arresting gear but caught the abort gear and went
off the end of runway at 100+ kts in a rather
impressive cloud of dust. The usual parade followed. The F-8 was
undamaged, and a rather salty Chief with the crash crew
offered me a ride in his pick-up to the dispensary. He had a VHF radio
in his truck tuned to Cecil tower.
As we were
making our way back onto a hard surface, the radio came excitedly to
life: "A-4 on short final, A-4 on short final, Wave
Off! Wave Off! Your wheels are up!" I had had enough excitement for one
day, but I looked towards the approach end of
the runway, expecting to see a rather clean and sheepish A-4 going
around. Instead, nothing. Then, as though it had
erupted from the approach end numbers, an A-4, doing about 350 kts,
pulled into a vertical climb. He did a half roll and
pulled hard down into level flight, now looking as though he was coming
into the "break" inverted. Next, a 270 degree
roll from which he pulled into the normal landing pattern (finally). I
was impressed. 'Jumpin' Jehoshaphat! (or
something similar), I said to the Chief, "That SOB is looking for a
court martial!" The Chief chuckled quietly. "Naw,"
he said. "That's Billy Phillips." The Chief then explained to me that
Cdr. Phillips had just returned as a CAG from
Yankee Station and WestPac, been selected for promotion to Captain and
given command of an APA (troop transport ship) in
preparation for commanding a CVA (carrier). I tried to imagine what he
would attempt in an APA!
The next morning I was
back in OPS, awaiting a ride back to the Grove, when I met the Chief
again. "Good Morning, Chief," I said. When's the
next Air Show?" "I dunno," he replied. "When are you taking off?"
That is my Billy Phillips story. I don't think his kind come along
often and I am sure he will be missed and long
remembered.
Brooks Dyer
683
Concerning the triple ejection group, I recall Ed Andrews getting
three, an F14, an A7 and I don't remember the third.
The newsworthy part was that he was three and a half inches shorter
after the third.
Joe Hood
684
Concerning "Huynak" Andrews third use of Martin Baker assets-He stepped
out of an F-8 during the RAG in VF-174
engine quit just south of Cecil on a night TACAN approach. This was his
first intro to the silk.
Red Best
685
Old Naval Aviators You guys ever think back to how it all began? That
first ride over the bridge to NAS Pensacola... In
the old days, Marine Guards stood watch on the gate... crisp uniforms,
polished white helmet liners with yellow and red
stripes on the side and the large golden Globe and Anchor on the
front... even to the un-initiated, you knew you were
entering a new and exciting phase of your young life. After you
received your temporary pass, you drive through the Main
Gate and are confronted with the gleaming Blue Angel F-9 or F-11...
depending on the year... and your heart started
beating just a little faster... and your mind immediately thought of
the possibilities of your future... maybe, just
maybe... someday.... If you took the left fork in the road and drove up
the hill, past the golf course, toward the
BOQ... and continued past it... as you crested the top... off to your
right was Captains Row... antebellum homes over
looking the parade field, football stadium, the beautiful Base Chapel
and eventually out to the bay. On the left was
Chevalier Field... home of O&R or NARF as it was later
called... and parked on the field, depending on the year... would
be gleaming, newly painted aircraft right out of re-work. They could
have been; F6F's, F-9's, SNB's, TV-2's, T-28's or
later, even A-4's... tucked way back to the left, were about a dozen or
so, cos-Moline coated old veterans... A Corsair,
Bearcat, Tigercat, Panther, Banshee and others... planes that would
later provide the nucleus for our future museum that
was only just a dream at the time. As you approached the Base
Headquarters building... if you went left again, you drove
by a brick wall that pre-dated the Civil War... continuing around, it
eventually turned back to the right and approached
the docks. If you were lucky, you might have had your first glimpse of
a real aircraft carrier (the first of many). It
could have been called Saipan or Antietam... or Lexington... all
veterans of the last "Good War". And again your mind
reflected... maybe, just maybe... some day... Just past the carrier,
the road took another right turn and brought you
along the sea wall and the old hangars on your left. You didn't know it
at the time, but this was the real birthplace of
Naval Aviation... where once old Curtiss Triads and other long
forgotten sea planes and float planes were launched and
trained the first of those to go before us; sharing the bay with old
square-riggers still in service. As you continued
west, on your right was the old Training Command Headquarters. and a
large number of brick buildings which you would
soon learn were barracks and training buildings... the altitude chamber
and the Navy Exchange. Just past the hangars on
the left was the indoor swimming pool where you were first introduced
to the Dilbert Dunker and other torture devices
only known to Naval Aviators... past that was the Survival School and
their small animal collection, inside the building
was a cutaway of the old PBY. Past that was the water tower and
obstacle course... if you took the road to your right,
here you'd find NAMI Headquarters... the National Cemetery and the Base
Hospital, where you'd sweat out your indoc
physical... take eye and hearing tests and experience your first (and
hopefully last) EEG... needles in the head and
strobe lights... who could ever forget it. Somewhere in here was also
the "Flight Equipment Shop"... where you'd receive
your first flight gear; your first leather jacket and be introduced to
your first real "smells" unique to Naval
Aviation... I can close my eyes and still remember the smell of my
first flight jacket, flight suit, oxygen mask and
helmet... bet you can too. If you had continued on the main road, you'd
go past the incredible Officers Club at Mustin
Beach... and then on your right you come upon an awesome sight; the old
Ft. Barrancas... even more history than you
expected in this short journey. Driving up the hill, you see the light
house... and eventually on your right, you see
Sherman Field. This is where the action was... even back then the Blue
Angels had a hangar there... but there were also
the planes you soon hoped to fly. Depending on the generation, they
were Panthers, Cougars, Banshee's... T-28's, T-2's,
F-9's or TA-4's... whether you stayed there or went to Meridian or
Texas... this was most likely the place you came back
to for your first look at a carrier deck from a cockpit. Can you
imagine the civilian pilots of today with 200 hours
under their belt, a few cross countries, maybe some hood time. At 200
hours the Navy pilot had a half dozen traps in
their log book. If you were like me... you probably parked near the
tower and Base Ops and watched the traffic pattern
where all manner of aircraft were landing and taking off... everything
from T-34's to F-8's and Phantoms... or they
could have been SNJ's, T-28's, Panthers and Bearcats... if it had been
just a few years earlier. And here once again,
your mind would wander and you'd think... maybe, just maybe...
someday... Thinking back, our first experiences were so
unique from our other services. Every Naval Aviator from designated
0001, went through NAS Pensacola! The Air Force,
where newbies encountered cookie cutter bases, that ranged from
no-where Texas, to Oklahoma, to Mississippi or a
beautiful, but miserably hot Arizona. Evern started out with civilian
instructors. Ugh! They all felt and looked the
same, save the local climate, topography, training, tradition... but
ours was sooo different... Awesome, beautiful,
historical and almost overwhelming... and we all shared the same
experience. Damn we were lucky!
Shadow
686
Jim Lusk did the "impossible" ditched a Crusader AT SPEED
& is here to tell about it:
I’ll make a short story of my ditching: VF-53, Bon Homme
Richard, Gulf of Tonkin, dawn of May 4,1969, hot weather and
heavy F8J ( Buno 150877) requiring a burner shot. Burner blew out on
the cat shot. Would not relight and nozzles failed
open. Couldn’t accelerate or climb. Alternate handle would
not unseat and my sitting height with the seat pack installed
at the time, was too tall to use the face curtain.. Flew for almost two
minutes. Maintained wings level. Got canopy
off just at impact. Aircraft sank immediately. Don’t know if
it broke up but suspect it did. Egress procedure didn’t
work. Undid leg garters, lap and shoulder fittings, got out of cockpit.
Had forgotten emergency O2 was in seat pan so
was pulled deeper by mask until I could break the connection. Helo pick
up.
Lcdr at the time.
Jim Lusk
687
F8U-3
ill comment briefly rather than wait for a full-blown
narrative.
The -3 was a mixture of joy and frustration. It had superb handling
qualities. It was a 40,000 pound airplane with
around 25,000 pounds of thrust, making it less agile than the F8U-1 at
lower speeds. However, it was amazing at high
mach number, as we would typically throttle back at Mach 2 on our early
test flights. We were limited by windshield and
lower wing skin temperatures as higher mach numbers were explored.
A typical flight would involve taking off from Edwards AFB and climbing
to 40,000 feet to the East boundary of
California. Here we would turn West and enter the supersonic corridor
with a USAF F-104 chase airplane. We would
accelerate out to Mach 2, throttle back at this speed, and run through
our test plan. As we passed over Edwards we would
drop subsonic and say goodbye to the 104, as he was about out of fuel.
We would then pick up an F-100 chase for the
remaining tests. As a former USAF fighter pilot, I got a perverse
chuckle out of running their star fighter out of fuel
half way through our test plan.
I have read an article that was very critical of our retractable
ventrals. We had two incidents with them. I had one
where the right ventral actuation system broke locked in the down
position. I was able to successfully break it off
during a landing on the dry lake bed. Later on Jack Walton had a
hydraulic system failure and successfully broke both
ventrals off during landing. Obviously we needed to provide a means to
retract them with a hydraulic system failure. The
concept was great, as was the performance.
One item was very frustrating. Afterburner shutdown at high mach number
always resulted in engine high energy compressor
stalls. These stalls consisted of brief air flow interruption,
continued fuel flow, then brief recovery of air flow
followed by explosive ignition of accumulated fuel, brief air flow
recovery and repetition of the cycle. The automatic
fuel control was unresponsive to pilot or system inputs in these
cycles. The explosive blasts would travel up the intake
duct and violently whip the nose of the airplane up and down, knocking
the pilot's feet off the rudder pedals. In one
event I saw a 1" gap between the top of the canopy bow and the
windshield as the nose whipped. I compared these blasts
to that experienced dropping a couple of 500 pound bombs low enough to
get ! one's own bomb shrapnel on a dive bombing
attack - which I've done. The number of shut down repetitive high
energy stalls would vary from a few to as many as 11,
depending upon what corrective design changes were being tried. The
engine would eventually go into a steady state
stall, a nice low volume whirring sound. The pilot would get throttle
control back when the speed dropped to 1.4 Mach,
where the engine would recover from the stall. Unfortunately we were
not able to correct this problem before contract
cancellation, as the F4 won the competition.
Why did we lose the competition? We had outstanding performance and
handling qualities! We had a very serious engine
problem, and no correction in hand. The single engine single pilot
controversy was real, particularly for the all
weather mission of this bird. We had a fixed base simulator of our
design that I flew extensively, and I felt Navy
Ensigns could handle the mission with our design. Unfortunately, I
believe the engine problem and the single engine -
single pilot issue made the F4 the safest way for the Navy to go.
Joe Angelone
684
QUESTIONS: Does anyone have any ACM experience with F8 vs F104?
My friend, Tom Delashaw, flew 104Cs in TAC, from '60 to '67, including
two deployments to SEA, in '65 and again in '66.
He went through FWS in '65, and was Wing Weapons Officer of the 479th
TFW through the SEA years. Tom was an early
proponent of Double Attack, and practiced it (on an unofficial basis)
with other members of the 479th (primarily D-
flight of the 476th TFS) during several deployments, and DACT exercises
such as Project Featherduster (Nellis vs. F-86H,
F-100, F-5N), Project PLAN (Pt. Mugu vs. F-4B) and several FWS wildcard
engagements (primarily vs. F-100). As I wrote
before, Tom got a chance to tangle with F-8s during the Cuban Missile,
while flying out of Mugu, and once while flying
from Nellis.
Before I go on, let me mention that Tom was a fan of the F-8 and the
Crusader pilot community. As a single-engine,
single-seat air superiority pilot, he felt kinship with the F-8
community, especially because he was such a proponent of
Double Attack. Much to Tom's consternation as a weapons officer, Double
Attack was not officially sanctioned by TAC,
while he heard the F-8 pilots were developing and successfully using
Loose Deuce. He also admired the legs on the F-8,
and commented that Hoss was able to fly as long in an F-8 dragging a
test pod (similar to a buddy store) as he was in a
104 with tip tanks. He and I were always sensitive to the inaccurate
characterization of the 104 as short-legged, as it
outranged the F-4 handily, but Tom thought the F-8 was really a master
of endurance and range.
As I said, Tom had almost all of his 104 time in the C-model, and it
was in the 104C that he met the F-8. The 104C had
more than 2x the 1g Ps of the F-8, and Tom related how he used this Ps
advantage over his opponents. I quizzed him once
about the turning performance of the 104 vs. other fighters, and he
allowed how it could probably turn with an airplane
like the F-8 down to about 400 KIAS, but he said that if you were
turning that hard, you were doing something wrong. As
a singleton, he used a slashing attack with the cannon at 600-750 KIAS,
a quarter roll with a 0.25-0.5g unload for
separation outside missile (and typically, visual) range, then a 2g
spiral climb to reposition for an unobserved re-
attack. After '65, he practiced Double Attack, primarily with his
wingman, Ray Holt, and swapped Engaged and Free roles
in coordinated slashing attacks. Unlike the F-4, the 104 didn't need
Mil power to sustain Mach 0.9+, so it didn't drag a smoke trail every
where it went.
It fought in A/B, which was smokeless, and was a very difficult target
to spot. With the slashing attack, it projected a
nose or tail aspect while within visual range, and only showed planform
during the spiral climb, while at long range.
And with Double Attack, the opponent(s) were usually busy with the
Engaged 104 while the Free aircraft was climbing. The
trick was radio coordination, and exploiting the good rear quarter
visibility from the 104 cockpit.
Notably, Tom
preferred the Lockheed C-2 seat, because the Martin Baker's chute
canister in the headrest obstructed the rear view. He
also said that the more upright MB seat was uncomfortable. (I think he
liked the spurs that went with the C-2 seat. ;-))
When the Cuba balloon went up in late 1962, Tom was in Phoenix, helping
set-up was was to later become the training
squadron for GAF 104G pilots. He was ordered to report back to George
immediately, and a few hours later, the 479th F-
104s were landing at Key West. ADC's F-104As didn't have a cannon in
1962, and it was thought the cannon would be needed
to counter the MiG-21s in Cuba, so TAC's 104Cs were deployed from
George AFB. Tom flew several sorties a day, and napped
in a cot under his wing on the ramp at NAS Key West. Interestingly,
after Tom told me this, I got some footage from the
National Archives that included a 104 at Key West with a cot under the
wing. Unfortunately, the footage stopped just as
the camera panned to the tail of 56901, his bird. The only cot visible
was another pilot's, but the footage confirmed
some of the color in Tom's story.
Tom and the other 104 pilots weren't allowed to cross the Cuban coast.
It was frustrating for them. They would escort
RF-101s and sometimes RF-8s into, and then pick them up on the way out
of, Cuban airspace. This is where Tom first ran
into F-8s, when they, too, were escorting the recce birds. Tom related
how the 104s would move to intercept any aircraft
coming toward FL, and that the 104s would accelerate through the Mach
for an ID pass. This caused some bother for the F-
8 pilots, because the 104s would boom them then wouldn't "slow down and
fight." They'd just make a slashing pass from
aft of the beam, then leave. The 104 was a good gun platform, and the
ASG-14 radar was easy to use for ranging with the
gunsight, so they'd bring home gun camera film to show to their F-8
friends at Key West. Tom said this happened "a
couple of times."
To keep from repeating a somewhat boring refrain, this was pretty much
the tale of Tom's experiences with F-8s at Nellis
and while flying from Pt. Mugu. He wouldn't play to the F-8's strength:
a turning fight at altitude. He never engaged an
F-8 in a level fight above 20,000 ft. The fights always moved to
medium/low altitude, where the 104's T/W and speed
advantages were the most glaring, and where the 104 could always spiral
upward. This begs the question of how he'd deal
with a high-flying F-8. Well, during Project PLAN, Tom engaged in
several engagements with an F-4B that are
illuminating. From his Project PLAN report:
"I flew the majority of the missions as target, 70% of the time. Most
were head-on set-ups between 30,000' and 45,000',
between .95 and 1.15 mach [sic] for me. The F-4 would usually be at 1.4
mach as we crossed head-on (for his ID), at this
point I was cleared to maneuver at will, so I would just do a rolling
push over into him to about 50[deg] -60[deg] of
dive and pick up 1.5 to 1.6 mach at 20,000' to 25,000' (750KTS). The
F-4 would in the meantime make a hard turn into me
after identifying me. After I had completed 180[deg] of turn I would be
7 to 8 NM ahead of him, and he would loose [sic]
visual contact with me, and couldn't paint me, so from then on it was
my ball game with a climbing 1.5 mach attack into
his 6 o'clock with missile/gun kills. Really not very tough. I might
add, that I could pick the F-4 visually from 8 to
10 NM, this was verified on the very accurate missile tracking radar
that was monitoring the test. The F-4 was not in
the contrails when I saw him."
Interestingly, I have another copy of Tom's report with notes from
Everest Riccioni, the author of Double Attack, in the
margins. Riccioni had written "Vital comment. Effect of speed (Ps) and
small size" next to this paragraph. Riccioni
penned these notes while working at the Pentagon as a proud member of
the Lightweight Fighter Mafia. You can see these
characteristics later reflected in the YF-16.
As for slow speed:
"We flew two missions where we wound up in a complete scissors, and by
using land flaps [Landing Flap setting, with BLC]
and Mil power I was able to stand the F-4 off in a stalemate (canopy to
canopy) down to 5000' to 10,000' where we broke
it off. Using burner caused me to start moving out in front, so I used
Mil power. (My stick was against the AFT stop
during the scissors.)"
Tom flew with the stick shaker/kicker disengaged. He flew smoothly, and
never had any problem with pitch-up during
normal operation. Tom viewed the stick shaker/kicker as an unnecessary,
and somewhat dangerous crutch to placate an
unknowledgeable USAF brass. He said that a good pilot could always tell
what the 104 was telling him.
During project
PLAN, he experimented once with what he termed "negative stability,"
and the aircraft departed. He recovered after a few
seconds, but he said it was a pretty thrilling ride. The F-4 was across
the circle, and said that he saw Tom's nose
pointing ahead of him and couldn't believe the turn rate. Tom had his
stick against the forward stop before the nose
went up. This reminded me of the way F-8s could swap ends if you got
the pitch rate high enough.
Oh, also, you should know that the 104 had none of the adverse yaw
problems of the F-4. You could use ailerons down to
the stall with no increased risk of departure. In addition, because the
T-tail shifted the vert's center-of-pressure up,
the effective semi-span of the tail was nearly that of the wing, and
the rudder was an increasingly powerful roll
control as speed decreased below about 300 KIAS. Tom later flew the
F-4C/D/E, but he didn't appreciate the F-4's roll
issues at the time of Project PLAN.
Tom then wrote about radar engagements:
"Our last mission was one of the head-on types at 35,000', 1.1 mach,
the only difference being, that I was allowed to
maneuver when I had visual contact with the F-4. I had a visual at 8 NM
and utilized a wings level .5G push over (this
was the quickest way out of the F-4's radar envelope). The F-4 flew
right over the top of me without even a visual ID on
me [at the time, Tom's 104 was silver with white wings]. I accelerated
to 1.5 mach, 25,000' and rolled into his 6
o'clock in a climbing 1.5 mach attack, I pressed for missile and gun
kills. This happened on each of the 3 engagements
on this mission."
I won't go through the rest of the report now, but Tom's summary is
noteworthy:
"In conclusion the F-104 by utilizing energy management, and difficulty
of being seen can defeat the F-4 in any
engagement, except turning subsonic flights at altitudes above 25,000'.
The F-104 can match the F-4's turn at 25,000'
and below, and can maintain a higher energy level at all altitudes.
Additionally it took 5, F-4's [sic] and a fully
equipped Navy squadron maintenance capability to match the sorties I
was capable of producing with (1) one F-104 and 2
maintenance types."
Perhaps most interesting is the confirmation of Tom's basic findings in
this contemporaneous Northrop report:
"It is of some interest to note that the VX4 pilots generally concur
with the F-4B vs. F-104C air-to-air close combat
results by the 479th pilot. Both sides agree the F-4B could turn into
the F-104 above 20,000 feet and both sides agree
that the F-104C could turn into the F-4B below 10,000 feet. The VX4
people are all amazed at the F-104's maximum speed
and maneuver at low altitudes, its high Mach acceleration and the fact
that one F-104C operating out of transient
fueling facilities ran VX4's five F-4B's into the ground maintenance
wise."
I hope I haven't bored you with some of my memories of great
discussions with Tom. He was fascinated by air combat
tactics, and as I enjoyed discussing the development of these tactics
with him. His first love was, obviously, the 104,
but he respected other aircraft for their unique capabilities. He
enjoyed flying the Hawker Hunter, not so much the F-
100 (he said it was a slug, and envied the Gnat pilot flying chase for
him). He also didn't much like the F-4, even
though he did a second 100 missions in SEA in an F-4C in 1971, but he
said that he'd like to fly the A-4 and the F-8. I
never met Hoss, but Tom spoke highly of him. Please feel free to
forward this to Hoss if you'd like.
Regards,
Mark Bovankovich
685
I flew the F8C out of El Toro and several years later the F-104G out of
Luke AFB (USAF exchange). I engaged a couple of
USAF F-104s in an F8C over the high desert of California as a result of
a chance encounter. They made the error of
attempting to turn with the Crusader and (I think) lost the fight.
However they were able to easily get away when they
were finished due to their speed advantage. I understand a lot more
about the comparative performance dynamics after my
tour in the F-104G at Luke in 1964.
Merv Burns
686
While with VMF-122 flying out of Boca Chica,1962/63 had the opportunity
to mix it up with F-104's. They could out
accelerate us but they couldn't turn with us. I'll take the F-8
anytime.
Sam Badiner(Bad-1)
687
VF-13 spent some time on the hot-pad at Key West circa '64. Recall also
that F-104s were involved, but not much
"interaction." because we stood all the night alerts and they were only
around during the day!!!
Brown Bear
688
VF-84 was at Rota for a few months about 1961 when an 104 squadron was
at Morone. They probably had a lot of work with
the F-104s at that time. I shared your experience with NATO F-104's
[wouldn't play]. At the time they were in Rota, VF
84 had F8U-2s. I was in 33 on the Intrepid when 84 was at Rota, so I
got to see Nato 104s twice.
Joe Hood
689
I never flew any ACM with the F-104 but having flown both the F-8 and
F-104, it is a no brainer. The Crusader would win
hands down in a turning battle and the Starfighter could escape at will.
Harry Blot
690
Around 1968 PRANG [Puerto Rico Air National Guard upgraded [?] the
F-86H to the F-104. This story is classic as it shows
how the skill of the pilot is almost everything.
The F-86s were flow by Korean War Vets [mostly airline pilots that
needed an outlet on the weekends]. When PRANG
transitioned to the 104 most of those guys bugged out leaving many
locals [a few stayed] to fly the new jet.
Now these new guys were fresh out of the Air Force tactics school
[remember this was the late 60's] with not a lot of
tactical experience, but it made no difference the F-104 was not a
StarFighter [probably a great StarInterceptor as it
was fast] with those things they called 'wings' it's turn radius was
about like the SR-71.
One day I was returning from some type of radar exercise with ground
radar and a B-52 - remember - the ones where radar
would vector you on to the tail of the Buff and as you got closer you
saw those radar tail guns aimed and tracking YOU.
Back to the story - so here I was at 41 or 42K over San Juan looking at
my contrail track over the ground [very unusual
in Puerto Rico] and then I notice another converging on mine.
I looked over my shoulder an there it was - one of those new 104s
coming at me FROM ABOVE. Well I slowly increased to
about 30 to 45 degrees of bank and after a few seconds went to gates
and a hard turn in to the 104.
He responded by a sharp increase in attitude and bank angle but this
"Rocket with a man inside" continued in a straight
line.
After completing my "Hi-G" maneuver I was now behind this guy and he
was still going in a straight line, however by now
he was doing "Warp 8", straight down, at San Juan.
No longer marking I made my way home [Rosy Roads] but I am still
amazed, this guy was able to get his craft slowed down
as he came out of the dive and went into the overhead at San Juan
International. I guess SJ got a good "Boom" that day.
Over the next year or so I would run in to the 104 a few times and you
could tell if one of the older guys [wait a
minute I'm one of the older guys now] because they would never try to
turn. They would make one slashing attack and when
you would turn they would "Bug-Out".
I was reading where Edwards would use the 104 to chase the F-8U3 [when
it was undergoing evals] and the 3 would just
walk away from it.
I think Dick Sapp or some of the others that were in VC-8 with me at
that time might have a few more stories.
Ray Haubelt
691
I flew from Danang to Cubi with 3 F-104s in '65 that were on their way
to Clark... absolutely no
contest on the ground when their burner was lit, but as soon as it went
out they were doggier in climb than the F-8 in
basic engine, and at altitude I was throttled back IIRC. A factor to
consider is that I had no wing fuel on that trip
[due to a bullet hole], so was not real heavy... dunno their fuel
state.
Ed Cichwoitz used to tell about hassling with 104s from George AFB out
over the desert... someone from Miramar knew
someone from there and they would coordinate a time. Said they'd be
flying around looking for them and all at once
they'd come up thru the gaggle from below, going like scalded apes...
used the altitude to come back down like scalded
apes... if they ever got slow they were toast... fast, they were a
handful. At least, that's the way I remember it :=))
Johnny Johnson
692
In 59-61 all we did was hassle full time.. we had two really great eye
openers. #1 the 104, set up after happy hour
visit to Shaw (125 mile drive from Beaufort), the full story includes
low pass to announce arrival, them climbing out to
meet, then classic head to head, then drag racing, then they are out of
fuel, another low pass 4 plane tight, climb out
and gloat all the way back, hassle some then land. Another trip back to
happy hour- great time! #2 Chi Nats at Seato
Clark.. Agreed meet at 40- them in 86D,s, head to head, 1st go standoff
to trees, 2nd go we used the vertical better,
next nite back at Clark, they "who taught you guys to fly that bird",
here is our gun film shooting migs over the
straits.. turns out some had 3300 hours fighter time! Yes it was
another era, one that will probably never be repeated.
I really enjoyed day on the boat, But I loved watching you nut's at
night !
Art Krause
693
My wingman (USAF exchange pilot Jim Westberry) and I bounced a couple
of Phoenix Guard F 104s just off the coast, around
Dana Point. They tried to turn with us. It was pathetic. The leader had
that machine oscillating so badly that I thought
it was gonna swap ends. They then tried to run from us ( We were flying
brand new 2NEs). I pulled up beside the leader,
he was in burner, so was I, except I had my speed brakes about half way
deployed to make his humilation more complete.He
was equipped with those big ass tips tanks however. Man...the good old
days!
Cliff Judkins
694
The reserve f-8s went to Cold Lake, Canada and hassled the 104's for
several years.
Jay Miller
695
In August 1974 , VF-201 flew their F8Hs to Cold Lake for ACM training
with the Canadians. The late "Skip" Staub had
challenged the Canucks in a bar in Las Vegas one evening and we made
the challenge happen.
At that time the CF-104s were assigned to "shape" delivery missions in
Europe. The birds were soon to be outfitted with
cannons and they wished to get back into the ACM training.
We obliged and more than held our own against the very fast CF-104s.
They would come in screaming only to be unable to track us in our F8Hs
close in. They seemed to lose sight of us after
the first pass and we generally were able to gain an advantageous
position before their short legs required that they
head back to the base.
Operational situation was great. Tower assigned us a quadrant and it
was all ours.
Most of us got a flight in the 2 seater 104 and actually had control
from take-off to landing. I was impressed at
stability at very high speeds at low level. F8 cockpit out on the
"Boom" would rattle one's brains at those altitudes
and airspeed.
Other Squadrons followed in later years after our very successful
exchange. The Canadians visited us at Navy Dallas and
a good time was had by all!
I received a phone call from the NAS Dallas Duty Officer asking me to
keep the group from smashing in the door of the
O'Club. They had run out of booze and wanted the club to reopen.
They backed off when I promised a party at my home. We had a good one
and my then wife called me the next morning and
asked if I knew that there were two Canadian pilots "ASLEEP" behind the
couch in our living room!
PJ Smith
696
I’m writing in reply to this latest letter as having had the
pleasure of having first hand experience of flying the
beautiful F8E against the “friend” in the article
flying the likewise beautiful F104C during the Cuban missile crisis.
Our Marine squadron VMF(AW) 122, Commanded by LtCol
“Pappy” Lynch, was deployed to Key West at the very
beginning of
this crises. We were chosen for a number of reasons, not the least of
which was our considerable experience with “Hot
Pad” operations there over the past several months and,
possessing the newest version of the F8, the F8E. And yes, we
were also the best, yet humble, pilot’s in the world.
A few days after our deployment we were greeted by the arrival of the
Knight in shinning armor, the mighty USAF 479th
flying the F104C. Their arrival was spectacular. There were diamond
flybys, echelon flybys, high and low speed flybys,
an awesome display of aeronautical skills surely to water the eyes of
the gathering crowd. What followed in the
landings was a display off loyalty and courage. The first 104 touched
down (obviously the squadron CO) and promptly
blew both main tires. The second 104, not wanting the skipper to look
bad, also blew both main tires. As did three and
four. We came to learn that this would be a routine event, something
that we would casually comment on at our nightly
gathering with them at the “O”Club.
When they were finally towed to the flight line, they were greeted with
a vast array of Hertz rental cars and vans which
dwarfed our squadron motor pool of one jeep and one ¾ ton
truck. Of course this was necessary as the Air Force would be
living in town in one or more of the very plush motels. After all, this
was to be an eight to five pm war. Nothing was
to happen at night. Our whimpering and finger pointing to our Marine
higher ups failed to generate the desired results.
We would continue to live in the dilapidated barracks and walk. If
necessary, tents were available.
In a few more days, our Squadron was chopped opcon to the Air Force.
The first thing the USAF General did was order us
out of our “home” and into an acceptable
“home” in town. We felt like Brer Rabbit telling
Brer Bear “Don’t throw me in
that briar patch.” And I was kind of getting used to looking
at the stars at night through the hole in the roof.
We became good friends with the 104 guys and soon we both overcame our
initial shyness and introvert like behavior
associated with fighter pilots. As noted above, we would meet nightly
after 5 pm at the O’Club to discuss aeronautical
observations of the day which included, more often than not, the
desirability of buying stock in the BF Goodrich and
Goodyear tire companies. We exchanged stories of miraculous flying
deeds, most of which started with “There I
was……….”. And we sang songs.
Have you ever been to a Fighter bar where they did not sing songs? My
favorite has
always been “The Fireman’s Song” taught
to us by the 469th.
We also exchanged complimentary plaudits’ to each other and
to our respective stable mates, the F8 and the F104.
As a result of these insightful gatherings and conservative claims by
both groups concerning our aircraft capabilities,
we agreed upon a meeting in the air to settle the issue.
I was chosen to represent the 122 Marine F8 side with a division of
four F8’s, against the 479th USAF division of four
F104’s led by “the friend”. The friend
and I agreed to a 30 mile or so set up with a head on engagement and a
base
ceiling of 10,000 ft. Pretty standard.
As might be expected, the results were predictable. The
F104’s were best at the slash and dash and in keeping the
fight
in the vertical. They used the thrust to weight ratio to their
advantage. Their small size also made them difficult to
keep in sight. As long as they kept the fight in the vertical they held
the upper hand, but once we got them turning
with us, the F8 rapidly took over.
Both aircraft were superb for what they were deigned to do and both
embodied, what was to be the last for some time, the
true single seat fighter with a gun.
During the crises, our F8’s were used on a daily basis to
provide photo escort to the North Shore of Cuba. To the best
of my knowledge, our aircraft were the only ones with the range to
perform this mission. I do remember being
intercepted by 104’s on several of our returns.
I thoroughly enjoyed the article and was saddened to hear the
“friend” had died. I can’t remember his
name offhand by I
do remember what a great time we all had down there. Some of the things
he said are still very important.
Small size, easily maintainable, easy to fly, cheap aircraft. We lost
that in the 50’s and 60’s. We built them bigger,
more complex, harder to maintain and much more expensive. And we spend
zillions of dollars a year at our fighter
weapons schools trying to beat a small, inexpensive, and easy to
maintain adversary aircraft. The reason: rules of
engagement.
Standoff weapons are obviously necessary but why do they have to be
launched from the same system that you want for
close in fighting? If these small adversary aircraft are so hard to
beat, why don’t we buy more of them and launch our
over the shoulder weapons from C-130’s.
I have flown the F8 against the F4 and the F4 against the F8. In a
turning engagement, I’ll take the F8, no contest.
The F4’s advantage is in its ability to gain separation and
come back and get a head on shot with the sparrow (if
everything is working).
He also mentioned the Hawker Hunter. I had an exchange tour with the
RAF where I flew the Javelin Mark IX. I also had
the opportunity to check out in the Hunter and found it to be the most
beautiful “pilot’s” airplane I have ever
flown.
Cheers to the 479th and Semper Fidelis to my Marine and Navy buddies.
Robert C, “Bob” Johnson, Col USMC (Ret.)
697
I certainly concur with the incognito "friend" of the sent "blurb" as
to F8 vs F104. I did have a somewhat unique
experience inasmuch as I have quite a few hours and engagements in both
types against each other. After F100 duty in the
UK I checked out in the "zipper" at George AFB and enjoyed the many
hassles with F8s in southern Cal and "stovepipe"
over Death Valley as well as AF F4s {no gun}. The F4s were fairly easy
compared to F8s. I learned quickly not to turn
with either one as I could disengage almost at will.
698
Just as a matter of note, I was jumped by two AF F-102's or F-106's
(the Delta Dagger or the Delta Dart) on a deployment
to Key West in '65. I know that the "Delta" aircraft are not the topic
of the previous email, but my experience as a
nugget flying the F-8 against the delta winged AF birds was: I could
out run and out climb them, but they could sure as
hell out turn me. We pretty much ended the "hassle" in a draw: I just
simply out ran them. Besides, two against one
is not a fair fight, so end it the best way that you can.
Al Nease
699
Range was no big deal in the F104. In 1966 over route pack 6 &
5a the first strike package to bingo were the F4s soon
followed by the F105s heading to the tankers. The 104s RTBed at .9mach
pulling about 2900PPH. After instructing in the
German F104 program at Luke, I joined Delta Airlines and transfered my
commission to the Navy Reserve in Atlanta where I
flew the F8. To my mind-the best gunfighter of that era. I did hassle
against the F104 at Luke and an impromtu fight
or three over southern Ca. and always won probably because of the
inexperience of the other guy.
Remember that the F8 was designed as a gunfighter and the F104 was
designed as a point to point interceptor but in good
hands turned out to be very good in a fight where low visibility and
eye-watering speed was a terrific advantage.
I have a feeling that I knew the writers "friend" but after 43 years?
Joe Coughlin
700
F8E Crusaders from VMF (AW) 122 engaged a division of F-104
Star Fighters following a spirited Happy-Hour challenge. It
took place in Key West during our deployment in 1962. GCI vectored the
flights until first visual contact then it was
game on! 2 turns later it was all over. Elevator limiters and drop
tanks handicapped the 104’s and the Crusaders ran the
table. Wish I had my gun camera close-up of the lead’s
T-Tail.
Ed Fullerton
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