Julian Baucom begins Martin-Baker approach. Photos by Rodney Rogers in another RF8, using Bay 2 camera.

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

We tried the launch four times and on three of the attempts something always screwed up the timing but on that one successful try everything worked as planned and we had four Crusaders in a somewhat loose diamond in a wing-up burner climb. It was spectacular and someone got a picture of it showing the bow of the ship with the four birds almost vertical. I have seen the picture twice but was never able to get a copy for my wall.VF-32 continued to use the launch for show launches after I left the Sara Maru. Royce Williams, then skipper of VF-33 reports they used it for VIP shows on their round-the-world cruise on Enterprise. In case you are curious how we managed, we had the lead on cat 2, right wing on cat 1, left wing on cat 3 and the slot on cat 4. We put all four in burner and all four cats in final cocked ready with the safety interlocks off. When cleared to launch all four saluted and the waist cats started the dance. When he touched the deck for cat three I immediately shot two, the slight delay between the shots was just enough to close three up to the lead. As fast as we could we each fired our remaining cats and the four were airborn in an almost perfect diamond.

As an ex-crusader I know I wasn't flying those birds but I was proud to be part of a team that managed to pull off a spectacular ( and legal) stunt with Crusaders.

Dick Bishop

Having read several accounts of when F8U-2NEs started showing up in which AirLant squadrons, thought I'd offer up some info on the subject from folklore, the log book, and Maint logs.

Went through VF-174 RAG at Cecil Oct 61 to Mar 62. Flew 1s, 2s, and 2Ns in the RAG. The "word around the ready room" was that VF-33 at Oceana was getting the first 2NEs in AirLant, largely because they would be deploying on the Navy's showpiece nuclear powered Enterprise, in an Air Wing with all the latest stuff. Know there are some ex-"Tarsiers" (where did that mascot come from?) out there who can fix the dates.

Anyway, in March 62, I moved next door to VF-11, still in F8U-1s, but accepting F8U-2NEs. First hop in a 2NE was 3-19-62 in BuNo 149144. Squadron was still flying "ones" while accepting and introducintg 2NEs. Hal Marr was Maintenance Officer, and had his hands full. Among the nuisance items -- some may recall that the first 2NEs had a fiberglass airfoil-shaped fairing with rain-erosion coating on the intake lip, and Vought field teams working at Cecil on a couple late fixes, including installing the "belly-band" around the bottom of the fwd fuselage (to correct the static port for the autopilot in altitude-hold mode during turns). In the process, the squadron had to pull several extra acceptance and transfers during the summer months.

From March thru September 1962 when we left for the Med on FDR, I logged hops in VF-11 in 149134, 144, 146, 148, 149, 150, 156, 157, 158, 161, 167, 171, 172, and 205. Of those 14 Es (Es from Sep 62) we took 10 to keep on board and operate (FDR was really crowded) and took along two newer Es, 150205 and 150301 which were offloaded at Rota as replacement spares. And icing on the cake -- as we left Mayport, CO "suggested" I relieved Hal as Maintenance Officer. Turns out we needed those spares by Christmas -- but that's another story. (Besides, at the same time, Cecil squadrons and a lot of other people back home were focused on Cuba.)

I guess there have been worse cruises, but nine months, Sept 62 thru May 63, winter in the Med; poopy suits most of the time; grubby old FDR; "new" Es with their wing fuel leaks; APQ-94s with their 10 hr MTBF magnetrons; wing fuel transfer probs with the new Aero- Products fueling-and-transfer valves; more magnesium to corrode; and a few others "lost in the noise," and then something like 16 pilots standing in line to fly 10 F-8s (with maybe seven UP on a good day). Only lost four Crusaders, including one that got chewed up in the pack by an errant Spad, but the good news was that we all made it back alive.

Bill Brandel

I think we old timers all know John Glenn estabished a coast-to-coast speed record in an F8(supersonic, I think). Anyway; when I was in VC10 at GTMO, I flew F8 maintenance test flights. The check list included a climb to 55,000 and a speed run at Mach 1.5 (if I recall correctly) to check the roll characteristics. I remember being impressed that, from that altitude, the surface looked like a big map of the Carribean, with Jamaica, Haiti and Cuba laid out in outline, although man-made features were indestinguishable. (I felt like an astronaut.) BTW, the hotpad alert aircraft were spotted just opposite the midfield taxi throat, so, on a scramble, we rolled almost straight ahead onto the runway, hit burner, and launched in minimum time. Once, I was in the ops office on the 2nd deck of the hanger in tropical khakis when the horn sounded. My wingman (Pat Moynihan, I think) and I changed into flight gear, bounded down the ladder, raced across the ramp (the linecrew already had the birds fired up), and were airborne in just a little over 5 minutes. (I think the scramble turned out to be a lost sailboat.)

Dick. Partridge

In July '67, CVW-16 and Oriskany were back on the line after the October '66 fire killed 46 (most of whom were airwing pilots). After a brief warm-up on Dixie station, during which we lost an A-4 off the cat, we moved to Yankee on 14 July. That first day, Cool Hand Cunningham lost his A-4 to flak in Route Package 1, but we got him back (Note: I flew Iron Hand escort with that former AF B-47 pilot many times-he was totally fearless, up until the night of 7 October, when he took on too many Hanoi SAM sites at the same time!) In the thirteen days between 14 July and 27 July, we lost 12 aircraft! (1) Spad, (6) A-4s, (4) F-8s, and (1) A-3. Dead or missing were Attack pilots Castle, Hartman, and Davis; Fighter pilots Hunter and Zuhoski plus two A-3 crewmen. Rescued from deep in Indian Country were F-8 driver Butch Verich and A-4 pilot Larry Duthie.

Now, let me tell you how it went with Duthie and the F-8C (BuNo146991) that saved him! On 18 July '67, I was assigned MIGCAP for an Alpha strike on the Hanoi battery plant. After the cat shot, 146991 gave me a wing unlocked warning light. Several re-cyclings didn't change anything, and since my wingy was a NORDO, I traded John Hellman my MIGCAP for his BARCAP. I dropped my wingy off so he could join the recovery in progress and took station off the Northern SAR. During the strike, Dick Hartman's A-4E was hit by flak. He got about 50 kilometers south of Hanoi before ejecting. Other A-4s set up a RESCAP, but they were soon low on fuel. Listening to all this on Strike Control frequency, I again recycled the wing several times - still the unlocked indication! The A-4 RESCAP made radio contact with Hartman, and reported his TACAN position from Oriskany, but they had to bingo back to the ship. I knew from personal experience with the Verich rescue two days earlier, that timing was everything. If the rescue couldn't be made in the first hour or two, the unfavorable odds became astronomical! So, I asked Red Crown for a steer to Hartman's position and went feet dry. I had witnessed Lee Prost's death off the Oriskany a few months earlier when his wing came off while strafing the spar, so I tried to hold 146991's speed down to the NATOPS wing-unlocked 220Kts. Not possible!! Before I got to the Hour Glass, I started taking 37mm close aboard - so I pushed it up to 300Kts. When the Fansong locked on, and the APR-27 began warbling, 146991 showed me her wing would stay on through a 350Kt and 3g barrel-roll!

Mac Davis was killed 7 days after he vectored the Jolly Green to Duthie. SecDef was visiting the Oriskany, and we had to show him we could bomb trucks at night, even with a 500 foot overcast! Mac hit the side of a hill in Route Package One. Between July '67 and January '68, Oriskany lost 37 aircraft and 26 pilots. Add that to the 33 pilots lost in the fire and the 6 MIAs from the '66 cruise, compare that with the deck-loading of 70 pilots and 60 combat aircraft on a 27-C, and the odds get rather grim. Our CAG, Burt Shepherd did get some recognition on the Ed Sullivan Show as the Navy's (then) most decorated aviator, and of course, John McCain (who flew all of about 5 or 6 missions before he got bagged) was the star of Discovery's story about VA-163's Saints. The rest of us have just suffered in silence, along with scores of others, through long sleepless nights, and occasionally trying to type an e-mail with tears fogging your glasses.God Bless Us, each and every one!

Brown Bear

[ed. note: the preceding elicited the following; though not really F-8 related, they belong here.]

Reference Dick Bishop's discripti on of the takeoff with no burner lightoffs, I am sure that the fact that the nozzle opened each time he tried didn't help. In the earlly days of the aircraft (1958) we were at gun camp at Fallon and were requested to make a fly by for a airshow at Stead AFB. We planned to make a 400 kt low pass in a diamond then pull into a near vertical climb, As lead I called "burner now" two, three, and four got good lites and I got a open nozzle. We swapped the lead.

Smoke Bennett

309

P. J. Smith's message asking about the sword, plaques, etc., prompts me to write.

VFP-63 assumed custody of the sword and all plaques from VF-124 when they assumed "RAG" responsibilities. When VFP-63 was decommissioned I was OIC of VFP-206 (CAG 20 reserve RF-8G squadron at NAF Andrews, Washington, DC). I led a three a/c flight to attend the ceremony. The Gator I flew had the cameras removed for the purpose of returning with all the memorabilia.

VFP-206 proudly displayed and maintained the memorabilia until the final decommissioning of the F-8 in March 1987. At that ceremony, attended by over 500 and more Flag rank than I ever recall seeing in one place at one time, the memorabilia were transferred to the then curator of the Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola, where they remain today. The fat lady had sung, and the memorabilia were relegated to obscurity along with the venerable Gator.

When we last reunioned in Pensacola a couple of years ago, I visited Bob Rasmussen, convinced him that he had the sword, and asked if he would break it out for the evening. He dispatched a couple of his people and very quickly located it. It was on display at our banquet that night. Unfortunately, the plate on the sword mounting board was missing. And during the evening the mount for the tip of the sword broke.

In addition to the sword, the list of memorabilia held by the museum also includes (to the best of my recollection) plaques of 3000 hour drivers, 2000 hour drivers, MIG killers and VF-124/63 COs. I remember that the plate on the sword gave a history of the origin of the sword (real Crusader sword), the name and date of the donor, and the phrase "Draw me not without reason;

sheath me not without honor."

I  was Flight Deck Officer of the Saratoga the night Pinky Paige was killed. He was VF-84 as I recall. The date was January 1962, just a couple weeks or so before I was almost killed by a parted arresting gear cable. Pinky was killed on his fifth night pass, hit the round-down, we were at GQ for 8 hours fighting the fire. It was later discovered that the fresnel landing light system had a false glideslope at half the normal angle. I have always thought that Pinky's being a redhead had something to do with a special acuteness of vision that caused him to come in low on every pass. Note: I taught photography, color printing and such, for some years and saw special vision characteristics in redheaded people.

Luft Pfeiff

312

In VMF 312 & VMF 3341962-64. Later transferred to ANG. Called up in '68, flew F-100 in RVN. Different mission, but no contest. Gator by a huge margin!

Bill Masters

Aboard the Midway (VF-24) in 1962 or 1963, I and several squadron-mates watched, from buzzards row, what we assumed to be a Pax F8 make several full autoland day traps. I vividly remember the pilot trapping with his hands placed on top of his hardhat. As our F8C's had neither autopilot nor autothrottle, I, at least, was impressed to the point of further befouling my flightsuit.

Dick Larsen

Navair claims Bob Chew made fully automatic landings on the Midway, 13 June 1963 in an F-8D. He was my neighbor at Pax River then and I think I remember him telling about the trials.

Bob Heisner

[correct. See the Records page of our website]

Al Nemoff made at least one fully coupled approach aboard an east coast carrier with an F8 from Pax River. When he landed he had his hand behind his head to show how simple it all was. Needless to say more than one in the Chain of Command had a piece of his tail.

Roger Box

The F8 autopilot was designed for 35,000 ft intercepts in an all weather environment. And it was designed to control a very sleek aerodynamic machine at those speeds and altitudes. As such it wasn't capable of the gain rates and large control surface inputs required for 140 knots on the glideslope.

There was a lot more to work with in the F4 with an autopilot designed to control that aerodynamically dirty machine and the large associated control inputs. In addition there was room for the reqired black boxes and radar reflecting antenna that extended with the nosewheel to provide a precise lock on site for the ships radar. The datalink was ship to aircraft and the F4 was to big and dirty to have varying lock on points on the fuselage.

Tom Corboy

Hank Hayes

[ref. #311, above]

I first flew an APC approach aboard the Midway on the 1963-64 cruise on the Midway in an RF-8A. At the time, it did not have a UHT input and was a little slow to respond. Strictly tied to the AOA. The RF-8A would wallow and vibrate a lot more than the RF-8G. Once they put the ventral fins on for the RF-8G, it was a little more stable on slope. During the 1963-64 and the 1965 cruises on the Midway, we were still flying night photo up north. It made things a little easier getting aboard. Some people did not like APC in the early days, but it worked for me.

Scott Ruby

Unusual use of APC -- It wasn't pretty, but it worked. VF 24, F8C, 1965, during a Midpac inspection aboard USS Hancock. After making a night intercept for the exercise, on approach outbound on the teardrop, I was zapping through towering cumulus and had vertigo so badly I felt that the nose attitude was much lower than it was. Turning inbound, I was still about 16,000 ft. Just couldn't get it all together, so dropped the gear, raised the wing, plugged in the APC, grabbed the stick with both hands, set the attitude and rode it down. Caught a one wire.

Tuna (Cecil Tune)

After reading all the "sea stories" on APC and coupled approaches I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to expound. I recall utilizing APC in the F8 around the 1964 time frame (no UHT input). If memory serves me correctly, it performed best if you sort of punched the control stick, confirming someone's statement that it made for a rough (power and control) approach. According to some this was my normal approach. Power responses when engaged were of significantly greater magnitude. I did not know of any coupled approach capability developed for the F8.

In all cases and models, I can best describe APC approaches as being, "not as good as my best but a helluva lot better than my worst".

Doug White

And all this time I thought APC was something the flight surgeon gave us for headaches and colds. The initial batch of Crusaders we (VF-154) received had unreliable pitot-static systems in that the airspeed indicators more often than not read 25-30 kts higher than actual a/s. And no AOA indicators.I can still hear the LSO (Tom Moore if I remember correctly) calling POWER POWER as I was approaching the 90 during carquals aboard the Hana Maru in November of '57. I replied "I'm showing 180 kts.", His response was "I don't care what your showing add power." In '64, back on Hana as V-2, I was truly impressed as the VF-24 and 211 F8s habitually got OK3 wires even at night. It was then I learned that APC was something more than a little white pill. I don't know how many of the pilots actually used APC but they sure had a better boarding rate than we had back in those early days.

Dave Winiker

that's an interesting exchange, re the f-8 and ACLS and autothrottle (APC). i was at carrier suitability, '66-69, and DID get to fly our ancient f-8 equipped with data link, autopilot AND ACLS and APC. as i recall, this f-8 was mostly the brain child of a senior carrier suit engineer, George ?....?, who later went to ltv and honcho'ed the a-7 acls program for that airplane. yes, this single f-8 could fly a coupled approach, mode 1, but didn't do it very well. biggest problem was the dynamics of the f-8 airplane--it could not answer autopilot commands swiftly and accurately enough--due to the airplane dyn stability and control. (the a-7 had the same problem, and its acls capability was limited to Mode 1A---an automatic autopilot disconnect at 200'/1/2mile vis, leaving the pilot with autothrottle still engaged, but needing manual flying to the deck: but the autopilot disconnect usually occurred with a centered ball, and on centerline). also, that original f-8 autothrottle, APC, was rather rudimentary, but still better than some of the first attempts at apc throttle control. as i recall, i did go to the ship at least once with this f-8, but would never have attempted a mode 1 approach in rough seas, just due to the poor autopilot and airplane response in-close. in comparison, the data-link, acls-equipped F-4G was a baby carriage to fly on a shipboard acls Mode 1 to touchdown, even with a fairly bad pitching/rolling deck: mostly due to the excellent airplane dynamics, and response to autopilot (or manual) control inputs. that "special edition" f-4, the f-4g, was only made in very small numbers, for test purposes at paxriv and at vx-? on pt. mugu. there were not any radar beacons available at that time for "point source tracking" of an airplane, but instead those macdonnel wizards had installed a restractable, folding corner reflector that dropped out of the bottom of the nose, port side. worked even better than the radar beacons that came along later, and allowed absolutely steady shipboard acls radar tracking on just that reflector on the airplane (necessary for acls shipboard computers to really "know" the airplane's position). much money and time was spent on developing a radar beacon for later airplanes to replace that folding corner reflector: up to time i left in '69, none of those worked as well as the corner reflector, although they may have worked to a greater range, or in heavier precipitation. for test purposes, while waiting for a decent radar beacon, we occasionally carried a big, non-folding corner reflector on an f-4j or a-7 bomb pylon---with suitable offsets in the ship's acls computer so that centerline touchdown could be assured. but back to f-8's: carrier suit had an even "better" f-8: an old f-8 model modified by ltv for direct-lift-control (DLC); the ailerons and that little inboard flap responded also to commands from a "momentary" thumb wheel atop the pilot's control stick: dial a little "up" on the wheel, and the ailerons would droop a little further, and give you a slight boost upwards on the glide slope. same if you dialed a little "down"; the ailerons and flap would raise up slightly from the normal extended position, and give you a little sink on the glide slope. this airplane, with autothrottle, was probably the world's easiest f-8 to bring aboard ship. and the pilot never had to make a pitch attitude change. that dlc airplane was in test about the same time as the biggest abortion of all f-8's, the f-8H or f-8J, i forget which, came along: the boundary-layer-control (BLC) f-8. the idea was to blow hot engine compressor bleed air over the extended aileron/flap, and allow slower approach airspeeds. problem was that blc extracted so much engine thrust that shipboard approaches required excessive engine output. i recall my first actual carrier approach, to Ticonderoga i believe, offshore san diego on a hot day---and carrying 4 dummy sidewinders, plus MER's on each wing pylon. final approach required absolute full throttle from the autothrottle, with an occasional goose of afterburner if i ever got low. and waveoff needed full, immediate afterburner. our lso refused to allow me in close with this airplane, and sent me to the beach, to miramar, to "clean up the airplane". as i recall, i came back out with only two sidewinders, and NO mer's, and the airplane was a marginal OK. there was a big rush on this one, with the first squadron ready for viet nam deployment with the airplane: don't know how the airplane did on that deployment, or what they were able to carry. they would have done better, though, with the DLC airplane, not the BLC monstrosity. but the DLC airplane probably would not have met the requirement for slower approach speeds on the newer, heavier f-8 models: but the DLC airplane sure was another "baby carriage" to fly. that's a lot of old remembrances of f-8's. last remembrance: having to bring a newly overhauled f-8 back into nas norfolk with enough of a hydraulic failure that i could not get the wing up, and had to make a mid-field arrestment heading west. wow; does that configuration ever land fast; and roll, and roll, and roll;; and it still rolls after engaging the mid-field chain gear. as i recall, i dragged the entirety of that old battleship anchor chain out onto the runway.

Bill Kelly

I was one of the other pilots with Dick (Larson) watching the Pax F8 land in fully auto mode on Midway buzzards row. Think it was in 1963. As I recall, they had an F4 and F8 out there on these trials. As was typical off San Francisco coast, we had sizable swells during the trials. Made for most interesting close in 'come out of the hole' recoveries by Pax pilots at times. Guts and Glory stuff!! Good to hear from old VF-24 squadron mates Dick Larson and Cecil Tune! VF-24, USS Midway & USS Hancock, 1962 -1965.

Lou Teboe

We had a ready room discussion about a throttle cable break and what happened afterwards (fuelcontrol went to "OFF"). Somebody suggested if you could get on the APC switch in time maybe it would hold the fuel control before it hit "OFF". Next day, maybe two, later, I was flying off Miramar with Skip Umstead. I noticed him dropping away from me rapidly and he'd just had a throttle cable break. He jammed the APC switch on and caught the engine before it went off. Had to hold it on until he dirtied up because it was held on by a solenoid which was only enabled with gear down micro switch. Anyway we flew back to Miramar and he made a straight-in still holding the switch on. He just couldn't trust the solenoid to hold it. Landed, let go the switch and shut down. Sore thumb but saved an F-8E.

Bob Heisner

In 1965-66 Tico cruise VF-51 had APC on our F8Es. Bythe time of our next cruise in 66-67 on the Hancock, VF-51 ( not sure about sister squadron VF_53) required Crusaders to have an operable APC for all night launches.

Jack Allen

During OCEAN SAFARI exercise, including English, French and US Navies, Philippe VELTEN, flying the F8E FN 12F 20, had a cold “cat shot” on June 13th 1983 at 10.45.Z. AM.

Couldn’t eject and ditched right in front of the carrier. The aircraft broke in two parts; the engine exploded while the front part disappeared. The carrier CO ordered at once to make an emergency stop on the screws.

Philippe dived to an estimated 120 feet before being able to leave the wreck and finally reappeared 500 feet behind the ship. He stayed about 2 minutes without breathing apparatus. A very short time in a life but an eternity for him.

When his plane hit the sea, the canopy blew up and water instantly invaded the cockpit. At this moment Philippe realized he had lost his helmet and mask and he couldn’t use his bailout bottle. In fact, a few minutes later when he was fastened to the helicopter’s rope, he found out his helmet/mask were hanging on his back

Philippe is now a “flying fireman” aboard Canadair and shortly Tracker at Marseille Marignanne airport . He’ll surely be there for the next FCB in Hyeres.

C. Marie

NB: during that exercise, English Navy lost a Harrier and US Navy lost a F14.

C. Marie

I went thru the barricade & off the angle of the Bonnie Dick 10-10-62 in an F-8A. Broke into three pieces. Cockpit sank first. I was able to use O2 on the way down, but tore the hose loose from the bailout bottle exiting. Saw the screws on the way up from about 40' down. Merle Gorder, CO, Jack Snyder XO, VF-191.

Don Jordan

Two of the saddest days of my Naval Reserve career.

1. The day we gave 12 F8-Hs to the PAF. They were in top shape with workable radars, and all the latest ECM gear. We chuckled when we found out who was to fly them. The birds left Navy New Orleans in 1975. (I think)

2. The day the DOD took our A4-Ls and instead of the A4-E, we got the TA4-J. The "E's" went to Israel (Also from New Orleans in 1976). With an adversary sqd. the "J" bird was not much. Thank the Lord, the former F8 drivers were more than a match for everyone.

Viva F8s

Pat McGirl

The discussions on keelhauling have mentioned the various things a ship does when one goes iln the drink off the bow. The way the engineering guys explained it to me was, the important thing is to stop sending power to the screws in order to stop the strong suction of the screws. Maneuvering the ship did little to help, and sometimes can cause more harm than good. The technique used on the Lex was to order all engines stop and rudder amidships. The ship continues moving, but the power to the screws is rapidly stopped and the bow wake would tend to drive the aircraft away from the hull and minimizes the suction effect of the hull. It worked for us when we lost one off the front. I had to do a JAG investigation on a similar incident of a night cat shot in the water and in the course of the investigation I learned a lot.

Chuck Klusmann

Claude Navarrette

More tales of the TWOSADER. While assigned to VF-174 in may 1962, the bird was flown in from Dallas and I was checked out by the pilot named Madison. Later I flew two hops with Mick Brown(maybe Roger Brown) and Jack Barnes Not to exciting in dog fight (heavy) but great for radar hops. Loved the drag chute. I had a lapel pin which had two joy sticks with a fist on each one but it got lost somewhere in the shuffle. My log shows the BUNO as143710 and listed as an F8U-1T.

Mac McCarthy

Ken Fox ejected with a PAF pilot out of the ONLY F-8 two seater. Fox was buried at Arlington National Cemetery July 3, 1999. Armiral Bud Flagg attended.

John Tapley

Smoke Bennett

The 155xxx and 156xxx BUNOs listed as belonging to the PAF F-8 don't seem right to me. The F-8J (F-8U2NE) was the last built and should have the latest BUNOs. My log book shows the F-8J with BUNOs in the 149xxx and 150xxx with the F-8H (F-8U2N) with BUNOs in the 147xxx and 148xxx areas. I did fly the 146876 A/C listed on 3-20-69 at VF-124. It is listed in my log book at a F-8C. So it appears that a typo occurred when the 155xxx and 156xxx were listed and that they were most likely F-8Cs, and should be 145xxx and 146xxx. That raises another question since I thought the PAF received all F-8Hs. I believe the F-8H was the best of the bunch when fitted with the F-8Js engine (J57-P420). It was the only F-8 I flew that could go from escorting the banner to the perch with out using burner. By comparison the Js were a pig.

Jerry Kuechmann

[When I was in the PI shooting "Thirteen Days" the PAF rep told me they changed the BuNos. of the birds they bought from us and there was no connection with the original ones. Paul Gillcrist]

338

Lynn Helms , a Marine major, was the X/Y F8 project pilot at flight test, Pax 54-55 time frame. Duke Windsor, was a Commander and Chief Projects in flight test. Both did all 3 NavyPreliminary evaluations (NPE) of the XF8. 2 were built and 3rd cancelled. Both Lynn and Duke said the X model would not be acceptable for production until a positive wing lock wasinstalled--regardless of what the engineers said. Paul Thayer, who was President of LTV, and years later asst. sec def.. agreed--Lynn and Dukewere right, Thus we all flew the rest of the Y f8 and production models with a positive handle and positive wing lock.as well as the follow on fleet pilots. Duke flew the Yf8 prototype, in140446 in Apr 56, This was #4 preproduction, thus the Y designation. I flew this a/c on 17 Aug 1956, and took over the project, after Lynn resigned ,soon thereafter. Duke on 21 Aug 56,broke the level speed record at China Lake Calif, at 1015+mph. in 141345. Both were great pilots and as many of you know Duke was a Golden Eagle, head of Indepedence CV, and diedlast year. Lynn went on to work for NAA, then Bendix, then GAMA, then as head of Piper a/c and head of the FAA. He had almost 2 full tours in Flight Test, and knew what he was talking about.

Hal Vincent

During an air show (cancelled later, never heard why) practice for the Secretary of the Navy aboard the Constellation November 1963 with a two plane detachment from VFP-63, a maneuver which I had never heard of was assigned to me. After an afterburner catapult, the gear was retracted, pulling up sharply, leaving wing UP, increasing the angle to nearly vertical. Adjusting stick pressure to not exceed 220 kts. or less than 150 kts. Maintaining this climb to 20,000 ft. (If my memory cells are not misfiring again). At 20,000 ft finally lower the wing and transition to normal speed. From the carrier this must have been a sight. Its forward speed of 30 kts or so should add to the illusion of near vertical flight. From my stand point it didn't have the same exhilaration of the "Scamp" departure from Miramar. Anyone else ever have an occasion to do this air show tid-bit? What was the final near vertical position obtained in this maneuver? I also don't recall if the launch was with a short fuel load which would have an effect on the vertical limitation.

Bill Bell

Don't know about the Connie air show but a standard VF-124 air show maneuver (at least while it was at Moffett) was a "covey launch". This consisted of 2 F-8s making a section wing up burner climb with another section making a max performance wing down burner climb. The latter consisted of accelerating to about 450 kts before pitching up. Believe the timing consisted of the wing down section launching before the wing up section. The wing up section timed their roll so that they would start their climb about the same time as the wing down section did their pitch up. It was a darn impressive sight for those used to seeing non afterburner A/C perform.

Jerry Kuechmann

Never heard of the vertical climb but if I had I'm sure we would have tried it in my Det. from VFP-62.You must admit that the "P" was great for airshows.My favorite maneuver was an inadvertant departure at the top of a loop off the deck while popping flares.CAG loved it but scared hell out of me. Never did it again. Only one of my pilots, Jess Heald, recognized what had happened, but he was clever enough not to tell anyone else, since I was the O-in-C.

Fang Liberato

Does anyone else remember the embarrassing moment for us VF-84 Jolly Rogers when Chance Vought (LTV) brought the F8 Twosader to NAS Oceana. Our XO, Cdr F. T. "Mick" Rooney was "famming" the Twosader with a Vought Pilot in the back seat. Mick Rooney was one colorful and "Sierra Hotel" kinda Fighter Pilot. So when he brought the bird back into the "break," that's exactly what he did, he broke it. He banked and yanked and overstressed the Twosader. We Jolly Rogers watched him taxi in and of course the Twosader was "Down." I talked to Roger Box about this yesterday. He seems to remember that they had trouble getting the canopy open as well. The real bad thing was that "COMNAVAIRLANT" was suited up and standing by for his ride in the Twosader. Skipper Dick Jester was embarrassed to tell AIRLANT that he couldn't fly the Twosader cause his XO just broke the bird. I don't remember who AIRLANT was but needless to say, he was really disenchanted, coming over from NAS Norfolk to get his hands on the "Twosader-Fire Breathing Dragon," and then get to wear the Crusader Pin and impress his pals at parties. The PR folks were deflated because they had visions of Big Stories for AIRLANT himself flying the magic machine. Sorry to say, it never happened.

I later flew the Twosader F8U-1T #143710 three times as an IP in VF-174 at NAS Cecil Field. First ride was with Stu Madison of LTV, he in the back seat on 1 May 1962. The second flight was with another IP, Dick Doherty on 2 May and the third on 4 May was with another IP Bill Rau. The Twosader could have been a wonderful Trainer for new F8 Drivers. It might have saved a life or two. Who knows?

Len Caine

The Escape System (on the F8U-1T/TF-8A) was unique and I sweated out it's use for many a year because of being one-of-a-kind. Had a flameout during the Phillipine training program and my Escape System worked fine.

Some years later a friend acquired both of the seats and, knowing I had done the design work, gave one to me. It is in my backyard awaiting restoration. The first thing I noticed was that the sequencing system had been removed. No wonder the guys nearly collided, there was no delay between seats!

Dick Atkins

Note: Dick is the Museum Director and Website ProjectManager (www.vought.com) for the Vought Aircraft Industries Retiree Club in Dallas. He did the cockpit design work for the "Twosader"

During a Caribbean cruise on board the Saratoga, middle 60s, I was scheduled for a morning CAP in case Fidel decided to shoot down another U-2. Being the first launch of the day, all four cats were in use, and I was spotted on #4 (waist) cat. Everything proceeded normally until time for full powered turnup, when Pri-Fly came on the air and said they had dignitaries on board who had requested a burner cat shot. I replied, "No problem" with a little more excitement in my voice than becomes a cool fighter pilot. The flight deck crew got the word too, because the catapult officer gave me the two finger full power turnup signal, and at full power then gave me the AB signal (OK, everybody remember the hand signal for that one?).

I decided on my own that if they wanted a climb demo, I would leave the wing up until I went outa sight. Held the nose high enough to hold max lift on the AOA indicator, and just laid there on my back goin' pretty much straight up. Unfortunately, began to run out of power in that configuration, and had to drop the nose to pick up speed and get the wing down, which figured to be an embarrasment if they were still watching. I don't know the altitude at which I was forced to recover and get the wing down, but when I got back to level, the ship was a couple of miles AHEAD of me. I figure I got away with it.

John White

Jerry Kuechmann's description of a "covey launch" reminded me of the day Larry (Hook) Miller told me I had no choice but to be his wingman. He was OinC of a VF-124 carqual det from Miramar to El Centro and I, as the senior LSO, was number 2 on the detachment seniority list. The Blue Fantastics were finishing their practice season and needed a warm-up act to precede their first full show at El Centro that year. Hook must have known about, or perhaps have flown in, a covey launch earlier in VF-124 history, but added an interesting wrinkle.

We light-loaded F8Es (about 4500 lbs of fuel as I recall) and took the runway together. Hook cleaned up, accelerated to about 375 knots as he parted the sagebrush, and pulled up into a half-cuban eight. I started my take-off roll just before he started his pull-up and did a max climb with the wing up. We passed at about 3500 ft with Hook 45 degrees nose down and I was close to 45 degrees nose up. It worked out quite well considering that neither of us could see the other aircraft until a few seconds before we passed one another - which is why no one would volunteer for the wing-up portion of the act.

Tom Corboy

Ah you lucky people who went right into the F8 crusaders. i lucked into the grumman f11 tiger instead, at oceana, following a USAF exchange tour in the F86. i sure thought that the Tiger was a hot airplane until the first time i got bounced by an F8. my first F11F fam hop was briefed for full afterburner takeoff---"because that's the only safe way to depart oceana's short 8000' runway in this airplane", quoting the chase pilot. also briefed was "...and might as well stay in burner clear to 35,000'; sure it burns a bunch of gallons per minute, but you'll get to 35,000' using the same total fuel as used in a Mil climb, but you'll get there 20 minutes sooner". that skimpy J65W-18 sure had to work to make a nifty airframe fly acceptably; as i recall, approx 7000lb thrust in Mil, and a bare 10,000lb in full AB. but the F11 Tiger did have a couple of advantages over the Crusader: first, there wasn't really any "departure" mode; you could yank and bank to heart's content, fly in deep buffet, use all the rudder you desired---and still it wouldn't depart: that came in handy if a hassle with a Crusader ever degenerated into a low speed scissors. and second, at the end of the flight, after touchdown, you could look sexy and roll down the runway with the nose way up there, and DRAG THE TAIL; yes, we had a shock absorbing tail skid, with replaceable (cheap) steel "shoe"; so "skagging" was acceptable so long as you didn't overdo it and two-block the tail skid. sure wish i could have had one flight in the J79 version of the Grumman F11 Tiger.

Bill Kelly - F11F Tiger Pilot (later occasional F8 pilot at Paxriv)

"The F 11 Tiger did have a couple of advantages over the Crusader: first, there wasn't really any "departure" mode; you could yank and bank to your heart's content, fly in deep buffet, use allthe rudder you desired--- and still it wouldn't depart"

That is true. One reason was that there was a restrictor plate around the "Stick" that prevented the pilot of the F 11 from entering into any prospect of "Inertial Coupling" that would cause theA/C to Tumble. However, the Stick and Rudder part of the equation was constant: "The pilot could continue control of the F 11 with "Stick and Rudder." Please remember that the RollEquation was controlled by "Flaperons" not "Ailerons". The "Flaperon" was very forgiving.

Fly Navy & Semper Fi,

Stoney Mayock

Bill Kelly’s quick analysis of the F-11 vs. the F-8 brings to mind another tale from that genre.

In 1962 Bill was an instructor at TPS, having come recently from VF-33 where he got his taste of the F-11, the under-powered but sweet flying machine having the honest flying qualities associated with nearly every Grumman product, Corky Meyer’s F-10F Jaguar being the notable exception.

Every so often the school adds to its varied stable of airplanes. In September 1962, late in the term of our class the school received a worn F-8U-1E from the Fleet. All members of Class XXXII, the first and only TPS class comprising all LTs, were anxious to jump in and drill around in the new toy, with the possible exception of some VP and helo types. But the honor of being first went, as it should to senior-one, Whitey Varner, late of the early F-8 guys such as Ev Southwick and Fred Winton.

In 1962 NATOPS use in the Navy was in transition between none and some. NATC was essentially at the “none” gate….”Gimme the handbook, I’ll read it (maybe) and stay current in six airplanes, no sweat.” At Pax, chase airplanes for FAM-1s then were a sometime event. The TPS director, Doug Birdsall, considering the future of Naval Aviation standardization as well as his own, dictated that Whitey have a “FAM 1” chase. That the assigned chase airplane was the mighty F-11F-1 elicited no end of amusement amongst the staff and students. Bill Franke, TPS ops officer, assigned the F-11 chase duties to none other than Bill Kelly.

The great day came. Many staff and students populated the TPS parking lot to get a ringside view of the takeoff end of runway 31, expecting something but not sure what. A section takeoff for aircraft having such dissimilar performance was unsafe, so Bill briefed Whitey to roll first and Bill would follow at a respectable distance and depend on Whitey’s kindness to be able to catch up.

BLAM! The J-57’s hot-streak burner light resounds over the land. Some seconds later – Whoomf – the J-65 follows. Whitey lifts off, using his fast left hand sucks up the gear, lowers the wing and -- staying in the weeds -- accels to warp speed. Bill and his F-11 continue to lumber along 31. Next scene…plan-view of F-8 going vertical beyond the takeoff end of the runway…F-11 lumbering on. Next…. another plan-view of Whitey’s F-8 overhead at the top of a loop…Bill lifting off. Final scene….F-11 gear doors slam shut as F-8 joins on right wing. So much for standard NATOPS procedures…….

Makes one wonder how such a scene might be received in today’s Navy.

Pete Purvis

More log book entries: While with VMCJ-2, Cherry Point, two flights on 10 May, 1962, with company pilot Stu Madison, F8U-1T 1437101, .7 and 1.1; Four touch & go and two finals one with chute, the other took the jog at Cherry Point.

Walt Limbach

I do certainly agree that the F-11 was a sweet flying machine. Although I only flew it as a student in the Advanced Training CMD I thought it was the best formation A/C I ever flew. I know the "Blues" looked at the F-8 several times to replace the F-11 and always turned it down citing such things as uneven burner lights to make it unsuitable for them. That was BS. They had the best flying (easiest) formation A/C around and may have not looked as good in the F-8. For what it is worth I thought the F-8F Cougar was the best looking airborne A/C the Blues flew. The Cougar with it's wing fillets made it look like a diamond in a diamond, even though they were out of sight half of the time while they tried to regain energy.

Jerry Kuechmann

Soon as I win LOTTO I will buy all F8s and will kick ass around the world.

PJ Smith

Seeing Pete Purvis mention the NATOPS manual reminds me of a story about VF-13's Jim Matheny. He was in Norfolk late on Sunday and needed to get to Cecil for muster early Monday. He went over (O&R?) to see if there was a F-8 he could use. The duty officer said they had a A-4 to go to Jax if he was current in it. Jim said no. "Okay, I'll give you the NATOPS manual to read tonight and you can fly down in the morning." Jim said no. Then the duty officer said, "Okay, come on out and I'll show you how to start it."

Larry Durbin

[ed. note: wrong kind of F8, but too good to ignore]

This story (F-11/F-8) reminds me of the ferry pilot who was delivering an F8F Bearcat and RON'd at Kirtland AFB where the new F-80 jet fighters had found a home. At the O'Club that night he overheard some big talk from the F-80 jocks, and interjected to remark that the F8F could probably beat one of the jets to 10 grand. As the story goes, the next morning he took the runway alongside one of the AF birds, and they released brakes together. The little Bearcat executed an Immelman on takeoff, came back around to "buzz" the F-80, and then climbed to 10 and waited for him.

Dick Partridge

Since it looks like I peaked some interest with my F11F Grumman Tiger comparisons with the F-8, let me give another example of underpowered Navy jet aircraft. Mr. Partridge gave us the story of an F8F Bearcat whupping USAF F80 fighters on takeoff at Kirtland AFB. I have a similar tale of Grumman's horribly underpowered F9F-6 Cougar vs. the P-51. VF-51 was aboard the Phil Sea, '53-54, in the far Pacific; mostly in the vicinity of the Philippines and Taiwan. As the only bent-wing squadron aboard, and with Phil Sea still having the old hydraulic catapults, we were at a great disadvantage on the many hot, windless days. Often there just wasn't enough wind-over-deck for us to fly. The other jet squadron, with F9F-2's could still make it, as could the Spads and Corsairs. But often the Cougars just sat it out. I would guess that the maintainers of the arresting gear were also concerned about the Cougar's slightly elevated touchdown speed. Anyway, the powers that be decided to put a detachment of Cougars ashore at NAS Sangley Point, in Manila Bay. Purpose: training. I immediately volunteered, and spent considerable time shore based, getting much flight time, much happy hour time (starting early, right on the flight line, under our thatched lean-to shelter with all pilots and ground crew present). The VF-51 C.O. was nice enough to include the ace squadron scrounger, AK1 P.E. Hall, in our shore detachment: that really helped the parts supply problem at Sangley: there were about a half dozen brand new Cougars tied down on the line, as spares for ours and future Cougar deployments: we never had to worry about trying to get replacement parts in from the Phil Sea; P.E. Hall simply removed the needed item from one of the pool Cougars, always leaving a red tag in the cockpit for the missing part. We were allowed to hassle to our heart's content--with ourselves. But NOT with the Philippine Air Force and their P-51's, from their base way to the south of Sangley. But nobody put the Philippinos under the same guidance. They soon learned about our presence, and they really wanted to fight. And they were good with their little propeller fighters. We never really knew when they were coming, or when they were overhead as we taxied out for a flight. But as soon as we started takeoff rolls at Sangley, down came the P-51's. Real close buzz jobs on the runway, followed by loops and another run about the time the Cougars were getting airborne. We learned quick enough NOT to hassle with them at low airspeed--they would just eat us alive. Instead we would have to accelerate to the Cougar's warp speed, then climb away from P-51 danger. The Philippine pilots learned soon enough not to wait around and hassle with us once we got the altitude and speed advantage: they would simply boogie out to the south, to their area where we were forbidden to go. After a week or so of this embarrassment, our SOPSD (senior officer present, shore detachment) decided that we were due for a payback. A flight of 4 Cougars got loaded down with toilet paper rolls in the forward speed brake wells, which we dumped overhead the Philippine Air Force Base. Reports were that we well-papered the base. But that didn't stop the occasional P-51 sorties to Sangley. But a good time was had by all. (and nobody put us on report). After finally, years later, getting to fly the F-8, I often wonder what the P-51 pilots would have thought had they encountered a Crusader on its takeoff roll, then watched the F-8 rapidly climb out of reach, even at a relatively low airspeed. Grumman did "good" with their Cougar, but as usual, the Navy didn't install enough thrust to make a real fighter airplane. Just as they did a little later with the F11F Tiger, Grumman made a real beautiful handling airplane with the Cougar, but it just lacked the power to be a effective fighter. More serious, our main "opponents" at the time were the mainland Chinese with mostly old Mig-15 variants. Those early communist bent-wings would have made hash of our Cougars, or even the later Tigers. It wasn't until the F-8 Crusader came along that USN really had a fighter worthy of the title, and able to fight the Migs.

bill kelly

Don Jordan -

I sent Jerry K's comments to my neighbor here in Mexico, the skipper of the Blues during their last 2 year tour with the F11, and the first year with the F4H, Bill Wheat. Here are his comments:

Hi Don, I never flew the F11 in formation--my wingmen did--Ha--so I can't say how it flew. We did look at the F8 as a possible replacement for the F11. I was not aware of the burner as a problem, the main concern expressed by those of us who flew it was the wing and the fact that we would be taking on another airplane that was soon to be old like the F11 and would be another problem in support. We chose the F4 because we knew we could get support. Thanks for sending Jerry's comments.

Bill Wheat

I was privileged in 20 Marine Corps years and subsequent time with NASA to have flown 24 different aircraft in the Naval Aviation inventory. Actually counting different versions of those aircraft there were 62 different models in the book upon retirement. On the fighter scene starting with the F9, there were the F11, F8, F4, F14 and later the F18. For me too, the F11 was the culmination of flight training in Kingsville's VT-23 and what a ride with all the frustrated fighter pilots, Navy and Marine, who were determined to preserve both their rights to top daug status while screening and preening Naval Aviation's future fighter pilots.

First hop, back in the break at 400kts, three feet of wingtip to fuselage seperation. Certainly that airplane felt good and flew good in that environment. After about 3000 hours in fighters, the F11 stands out as the best formation aircraft of the lot. Viceless hassling but in the slow scissors, full power and downhill at 6,000fpm minimum. And with a penchant for metalurgy problems (even those days I guess I was a techo-geek prowling the hangar). I remember vividly the metalsmiths reriveting intake ducts.

Then the Crusader. A 1,000hrs under the belt, a 1,000mph in the book and, while strickly a Charlie and Delta flyer, 1.92imn regularily on test hops and over 70K still goin up. The Cadillac of sports car fighters, ridin on the ragged edge of the buffet, kickin anyone's butt. But, before that last F11 to F8 Blues eval, the word was, as we in the fleet knew, you'd either have to change the pitch control system or the close slotman would eventually greet history on the high speed PIOs that were readily available.

Then the Phantom. Power, power, power - always available and for cornering there was a magic speed to make it happen. Rutkowski energy tables and climb schedules. We could make it do everything except gunnery - my old squadron mates still tell tales of my insistence on using the Mk4 gun pod air to air. Hey, at least we made some holes and some lieutenants even shot off the banner! The Blues made it look good - and beat up a lot of metal. But a fleet bird was not a formation honey. But Rhino did the job and brought you home. It's just that I still remember that first impression: yesterday I climbed out of the Crusader and felt that I had put that airplane on, today I climbed into the F4J cockpit and felt that I'd landed in a Mack truck - all us Crusader pilots know that your legs and feet belong out in front of you not down below you!

Then Grumman's penultimate. Before we knew of flat spins and disintegrating engines we'd stroke it to zone 5 at about 200 feet over the water and ride it straight up till it stopped at 48K with a simultaneous smooth power reduction to about 85%. For those who've never done it, it was honest. It simply pitched foward, bobbeled once or twice in the negative tuck and proceeded downhill. And pitch rate, unbelievable. But formation?? For the old gunfighter though, any complaint was made up for by the disintegrator. I'm glad to hear that the guys in Ghaniland got to use it in serious work. Is DoD really serious that the Navy and Marine Corps JSFs won't have a gun? We learned that lesson!

These may be frivolous reflections but if money were no object those two Thunderbird Charlies (they got to be with that nose and wing up leading edge) at Deer Valley Airport [see page 6 of the March/April 2002 Warbirds International] or an F11F-1F re-engined with a J52-P408 would be really great toys for all us old boys. Then midst all the hydraulic, electrical and fuel system challenges, we'd all take turns in order to issue up to date opinions on which one would do what.

Wally Boeck

Since no message has yet compared these two a/c regarding their working-level fleet experiential suitability, and since I had deployments in both, including four deployments with full night F-8/27C class operations, this may help. In 1958, I was a LT and went from sea duty to VF-121, slated to be a RAG instructor during the F4H-1 fleet intro. They had F-lls, some FJ-3's/-4's (all of which I flew) and the F-4 sims. There I met Cdr Jack Godfrey, who convinced me it would be more fun to go back to sea duty as his ops officer in VF-111. Jack was really a great skipper but I was curious as to why the XO was only a LCDR and why he couldn't find a LCDR to be ops officer. (Later, I found it WAS the F-11 carrier suitability or lack thereof.) But, after 24 long friggin' months as a CVA asst navigator/OOD Underway, I was aching to again put a hook down, so took him up on it. The F-ll was a wonderfully-flying yet under-powered aircraft in which the three nuggets of my division had no problem hanging-in superbly whenever I put them through all kinds of Blues' routines. If we had been in F-8s that would have been more difficult. As to carrier suitability, both F-ll and F-8 demanded that you be right on top of things. The F-8 had that bucket-shaped power-required curve so that you could be stabilized with a donut, then get some wind gusts and/or stack gas turbulence and suddenly go from 125 to 140 KIAS, setting you up for a close-in settle. It was, of course, correctible if you were far enough out to do so. The F-ll didn't share that characteristic, but it was much more sensitive to pitch control in landing config. For instance, when we (VF-111 Sundowners) arrived off Hawaii for op-readiness exercises, and ComFAirHawaii told us to demonstrate F-11 full night qualification (3 traps each, I think) during our stay. Upon hearing that, all the LSOs lifted a few inches off their seats and became instantly "full-term with birthing contractions." That included our very own outstanding young LSO, LTJG (later admiral) Skip Furlong. By urgent, probably prostrate, pleading, CAG worked a miracle and had the quals changed to only four pilots, starting when the upper limb of the setting sun was just below, rather than 6 degrees below, the horizon; in other words: "brazen pinkies." So, the Skipper, XO, and I, plus an LSO-chosen pilot and spare pilot made the effort. (Things went okay, and I remember hoping that no one in the other squadrons would notice the irony of it all and start calling us "Sun-uppers" vice "Sundowners.") Another weakness of the F-11 was its MLG struts which had to be "miked" for bulging after many carrier landings -- what a pain that was! The last F-ll item is that while doing "show-time" on a "petty-coat cruise" just prior to deployment, I had to use the ejection seat after J-65 engine self-destruct due to low oil pressure. It was a careful PRE-POS-OX-PULL and then HUGE back pain as the Grumman seat did its job. The X-rays showed nothing. (My oldest son and I made the front page of San Diego Union for Saturday, February 14, 1959, the day after punching out on Friday, the13th.) Five and half years later, the cause of that pain finally showed up in a lot of vertebra radial fractures all-filled-in, in X-rays taken after punching out on short notice from an F-8E with dual PC failure. (It was hard to believe that no discs had ruptured in the F-11 ejection.) The Martin-Baker seat was, compared to the Grumman seat, simply gentle persuasion -- another big F-8 plus. Finally, when a p-CAG in 1967, there were a lot of CAG-assignment changes due to CAGs being "checked-in" at the Hanoi Hilton. So, I was staying loose, getting checked out in various RAG squadrons in PacFlt. In the F-4 check-out I got a 1000 mph down-the-throat missile shoot, followed by joining the MLP pattern at Miramar. After the LSO generously gave me 5 OK's for 5 passes, the RAG IP suggested I had flown the F-4 before. I modestly said something like, "No, really, I'm just a typical Crusader pilot used to working hard and smoothly when on the ball." (Later, I was honored to be CAG-21 and to be able to fly in combat with the F8-driving VF-24 and VF-211 Mig-killers, as well as with some truly outstanding A-4 squadrons.) In sum, it's Crusaders forever!

Hal Terry

The young guys on the big boats are almost cheating. Looks almost like an AF runway. On the other hand, coming back after 6 hours or so, and several tankings has got to be a bitch. As closeas I ever came to being dead was simple exhaustion. Had the SDO duty, flew once during the day, then again at night. Around midnight or so, last one leaving the ready room, anxious tohit the rack. Call comes down when I was literally on the way out the door, "Launch the CAP". Hell, we didn't even have a CAP set to my knowledge. Like a damn fool, I launched; wentout and intercepted a Badger. An hour or so later, they don't launch a relief, they launch a damn tanker. Anyway, by the time I headed back to the ship, I was totally zonked. Had I been inmy car, I would have definitely pulled off the road and went to sleep, immediately. I'm nodding off in the groove; using every ounce of will power I could muster just to stay conscious. Hadthere been any irregularities whatsoever, I would definitely have been dead meat. It took all the adrenalin I could muster just to stay awake. Damn fool. I should have located someone elseto go, no matter who I pissed off. But, you remember how it was.......rather be dead than look bad, or look like you couldn't hack it.

John Allsup

The weight to thrust ratio of the early F8A & B actually was pretty close to the later models. The empty weight of the A was 18200# with the J57-P-4A putting out 16,200#. This gives a thrust to weight of 1.12 vs the F8H of 1.1 The addition of the ventral fins was to attain better yaw stability at the higher mach numbers due to additional thrust but actually decreased the turning performance. The ventrals wanted to keep it going straight whereas without them the yaw axis was much more effective in turning especially during the slow speed scissors scenerio(rudders only) which in most all one on one`s(same aircraft) ended up deteriorating to with pilots of equal talent . The lack of the ventrals in the A/B models gave a much quicker slicing reaction with the rudders & therefore a subsequent chase after the ventral model trying to accelerate away invainly.

John Watkins

Reading Bob Clapp's recollection of the F-8 nose wandering from side to side if you were about to depart brought back some thrilling memories for me.

One time at happy hour, I casually mentioned this to some of the real veterans (many of whom are no doubt reading this) and I can still remember the horrified look on their faces. It was about then that I got the clue that I was in danger of becoming a smoking hole in Marietta, Ga. Thankfully, it never happened but I was lucky to get through those days alive. I still don't know how they wound up so close abeam or if they were also getting the wandering nose. I was just proud to be associated with them and to get to fly that magnificent machine.

Great memories,

Tom Brown

Too bad that the Tiger wasn't scaled up a bit for the J57. Considering that volume is proportional to the cube of the scaling factor, the short duration might have been solved in spite of the more thirsty engine. Another pity is that the Gator wasn't equipped with a pitch damper. Why not? The technology - while not fully mature - was sufficiently advanced for this much needed feature. If it failed, you would just be back to the basic airplane which we all survived. Having flown the NASA FBW F-8C, I can assure all that it was - by far - the best handling Crusader ever. It had a pitch damper.

Phil Oestricher

i'm enjoying these stories from drivers of other than the F8 Crusader as much as i enjoy the memories of the pro Crusader drivers (i consider anyone a pro F8 driver if he endured and survived a tour aboard a 27C carrier with this airplane). my only Crusader time was at paxriv, and flying occasional test flights for O&R, out of Norva. as to carrier characteristics, i only have experience with the first carrier tests of the F8J and with the DLC test version of the airplane. that DLC F8 (direct lift control via being able to instantly change the droop of the ailerons via a momentary thumb wheel atop the control stick) was a beauty; its autothrottle was good enough to maintain airspeed while the pilot flew a constant pitch attitude on the glide slope, and varied meatball position with the DLC. the F8J, as i related earlier, was a real dog on carrier approach with the load i was trying to carry: 4 sidewinders plus a MER on each wing pylon. as to night ops on a 27C with an F8: i'm sure glad i never had to do that. my night carrier experience was limited to an earlier try in VF-51, in Grumman F9F-6 Cougars: i believe that i got as far as completing fclp. several in the squadron actually got to the ship, the straight deck Philippine Sea, out of San Diego: as i recall, the ship captain decided this stuff was too dangerous for his ship, and the rest of us, after the first 4 or so pilots, were relieved from having to do such dangerous stuff. Later in VF-33, in the F11F, i did sort'a get night qualed on the angle-deck Intrepid: as i recall, that "qual" was very limited; something like 3 night landings was all that ship skipper could stand, and the whole squadron didn't get night qualed. some months later, in the Med, i DID get to use that night "qual": me and wingman Art Finnerty were on a late afternoon flight; somewhere during the flight, Art had some sort of problem: hook, landing gear, or whatever, i don't recall; but the ship ordered us ashore to the Nice, France international airport: Art was to stay overnight, and wait for a maintenance crew to fix his problems; i was to refuel and return to Intrepid well after dark; i remember complaining to the air boss that my night qual was long expired; answer "come back tonight, or else". thankfully it was a clear (but black) night, smooth seas, no deck motion, and i lucked into a trap on centerline and somewhere in the wires. with some later minor daytime experience in the F8, i sure would NOT have wanted that impromptu night re-qual in the Crusader. so, hat's off to you Crusader night pilots. How about a little more from some of the F4D Skyray pilots: at least that airplane had a a decent radar and some night capability, and there was some reason to fly them after dark. same for some more input from F3H Demon pilots.

bill kelly, "amatuer Crusader pilot"

A little more about the Tiger. I have ~900 hrs in it, flight training VT-23 in 63 and Blues 67-68. Underpowered, you bet. Took about 200 miles of a max 800 mile leg to get to FL 390-410. Climb schedule a must. We flew from 5000 foot runways at quite a few airshows. Landing was not a problem even though touchdown was 140 kts. Great aero braker and super brakes. Taking off was a different story. Just a couple of interesting ones that I remember; We delayed the beginning of an evening show in Reading, PA until the temp got down to 82 and then made individual takeoffs using all of the runway to get in the air. Made a diamond go at Benton Harbor/St Joe, Mich on a warm day and as slot man I could not move under #2 to get to the slot for fear of hitting the approach lights on the upwind end. Think they were 5-6 feet tall to be above the snow in winter, but they looked much taller when I went by them. The airplane had just enough power to do a nice show at sea level. Burner on all the reversals and mil on the overheads. The mechs used to set the EGTs to give the diamond guys the proper power at mil. Boss 635, wingies 650, and slot 665 which was max according to my failing memory. As the season went on my engine (slot) would get dirty from all the gook ingested and the mechs would have to crank up the temp to allow me to keep up with the boss until we got back to P'cola where they could clean the compressor. Have seen temp close to 700 which made me a little uncomfortable. I said enough power at sea level. It would get us over the top of the overheads at 150 kts or a little better depending on OAT. However, we did a show at the air races in Reno in 68 with a base of about 5000 ft. Burner at the pull up got us over the top at 100-110 kts. I think my call was "nobody touch a nothin". It worked but it was a little sporty. One more quick Tiger story. We stopped at one of those SAC bases in Texas on the way back to P'cola. As we left the geedunk to man up, the horn went off and and we went back inside while the AF launched about a billion lbs of aluminum and JP4. When we went back out to man, it was dark. Approaching the a/c I asked the Boss what kind of takeoff we would make. He looked at me like I had just farted and said "what kind do we always make?". I rogered that. When we lit the burners on takeoff roll it was spectacular. The Tiger had a very blue burner flame with diamonds in it and four of them were something to see. As I moved into the slot a few feet above the ground I remember thinking "take that you AF pukes." I now had one of those burners about 3 feet above my head. Then the Boss said "burner off now." It was like somebody had put their hands over my eyes for about 10 seconds until my pupils started to expand. I held what I had, as the ground was not far away, and when I started to see a little, I was still where I was supposed to be. Better dead than look bad. I think I mentioned to the Boss that I would rather not do that again. As others have said, the Tiger was a good form airplane and it looked good, but it was grossly underpowered.

Frog Allen

I never flew the F-8. We had F-11's in the air group (CAG-19) on our 1958-59 (pre-RAG Program) cruise in VA-191. As a "jet-jockey" turned Spad driver by the wondering wiles of Bu-Pers, I always thought the Tiger to be quite the desirable aircraft to fly (Until during night qualifications off Oahu one broke its back on the round-down and boltered. While he was struggling into Barbers Point, another hit the same place but lower and rolled up the deck in a big ball of fire). I did buddy-refuel the F-11 on a couple of occasions. I never hear about the F-8, however, but what I am reminded of an incident during flight trng. We were on our syllabus cross-country in F9F-2's Corpus-Dallas-Pensacola(RON)-Corpus. One of the instructors was a friend of the Chance-Vought liaison officer who arranged for us a tour of the plant. In the middle of everything was 14 foot tall wall which surrounded a fairly large area. After we had been given the two-bit tour the liaison officer (our guide) advised us he was going to show us something but., since it was classified, we coiuldn't talk about it. He then took us up a ladder (to any land-lubbers: stairway), over the top and down inside the wall where they were hand-building the F-8 prototype. Our first impression was that that thing had the biggest &%$*#@ hole in its fanny any of us had ever seen. We were awed by the idea of changing relative angle of attack and several other "innovations" we saw. Then--and this is the good part--one of the other students asked, "What are they going to call it?" Our "guide" answered, "Well, Corsair II has been suggested. Another possibility is "Crusader," but we think it ought to be called, "The Last Chance!"

Marv Drake

This was inspired by your very good website.

An active duty N.A. from '47 to '53 (TBM's and AD's), when I got out I went back to school, got a BS (AE) and went to work for Chance Vought from '56 to '58 as a flight test engineer. TheF7U-3 was still being produced when I got to Dallas and the XF8U-1 was in the early test stages. I have several memories about that wonderful airplane and Chance Vought:

(1) From the first knowledge of the company, I admired CVA for its willingness to press the design envelope to achieve better flying qualities and performance. The inverted gull wing of theF4U was considered fairly radical in its day; had some growing pains, but you can still watch it every day on TV (Black Sheep Squadron) as a terrific fighter. It's too bad the F5U FlyingPancake was destroyed by Navy edict (the war's over!) before it had a chance to prove what it could do, with a zero to 500 knot speed range. The F6U Pirate was the first of the Navyafterburner jets. Not very successful, though I'm sure they provided valuable data for afterburner design. I remember seeing several of them while under test at VX-4, NAS Atlantic Cityin 1950. The F7U design was certainly on the leading edge. In those days, airplane and engine development were more heavily depended upon to pace each other. When the engine didn'tprove out, you had a cruddy weapons system (F7U, F3H) that you were stuck with, and with the J-34, the F7U was cruddy. But what impressed me was that the F7U was the very first example of the full-power control system, all hydraulic. What a big jump that was! With the F8U, they used what they'd learned from the F7U to good advantage in that respect..

(2) In the early days, the F8U had a hell of a time with its weapons systems. The Zuni side mounted rockets caused flameouts, and the nose mounted 20's vibrated the airframe so much thegunsights were known to fall out of their mounts. There was also a "snaking" in yaw which was common to other contemporary jets and which led to various aerodynamic fixes on thevertical tail. Early on, speed records were established, which led to a questionable coronation as the "fastest one man transport in the Navy".

(3) In early 1957 (I'm guessing at thetime), a new-hire test pilot named Jim Buckley was assigned the task of a fly-by for a visiting group of Naval Academy Midshipmen. He made a high speed pass, south to north; as hepulled up, the airplane pitched up violently, shed the wing, and impacted 2 or 3 miles north, killing the pilot. The accident investigation showed that the pitchup caused about 11 "g's" before loss of the wing. Also, it showed that as the fuselage bowed around the C.G., the kinematics of the control system called for increasing UHT (unit horizontal tail) pitchup command,and the situation fed on itself. A reversing "scissors" was designed into the control circuit as a result.

(4) I was the senior flight test engineer on the F8U-1P Spin Program, a followup to the F8U-1 Spin Program. Don Schultz was the test pilot. Two notable items: First, the chief wizards at theNACA spin tunnel and in Chance Vought aerodynamics predicted that the spin would be even worse than the F8U-1 due to the slab bottom and sides where the cameras were mounted. Missed it! The spin was significantly less severe. This was the first all-telemetered spin demo for the Navy; I sat in a trailer watching about 20 dials showing what Don was doing. He wasex-USAF but a hell of good pilot in spite of that background. Don't let me mislead you...the spin was still pretty wild. But recoveries were satisfactory with emergency landing droop (wingdown), aileron with the spin, and full aft stick. During the F8U-1 spin program, while these unusual recovery controls were being developed, the spin recovery 'chute had to be used;jettison was unsuccessful and afterburner was used to destroy the 'chute (the airplane couldn't be flared to a landing with the 'chute deployed). I don't know who the pilot was.

(5) A word on Black-hearted Contractors: I think CVA played pretty straight with the Navy but during one of the critical NPE's (Navy Preliminary Evaluation) I observed a little bit ofchicanery. CVA was having a lot of trouble with fuel leaks in the wing tank. While the company took the Navy guys out to lunch, the CVA crew hauled the test airplane around behind thehangar, defueled the wing, and squirted quick-set sealer in. As far as I know, the Navy never found out.

(6) I was flight test engineer for the Deadstick Landing Program in late '57. Val Schaeffer was test pilot. As I recall, ground tests showed need for increasing the RAT hydraulic flow rate,which was done with some cutting and trying. The tests at Edwards went better than expected: The SAS had to be shut down to help the hydraulics, but Val called it "no problem" toshoot the approach at 135 kts (wing up, of course). To build up to the actual engine-out work, we'd installed special shutoff valves so we only had the RAT hydraulics, with the engine atidle. LCDR Ted Wagner came out from Pax and repeated the end tests for the Navy.

(7) I finally did get to fly the Crusader. I left Chance Vought to join CAA (then FAA) flight test. They soon sent me to Navy Test Pilot School (I'd continued to fly in the Reserve). My NPE (Navy Preliminary Evaluation) school project, sort of a final thesis, was to fly 4 flights in a F8U-2and make a report on it to the extent of my abilities. Way out! On my first takeoff, I was trying to measure stick forces with a hand-held force gauge! Didn't have a lot of leisure time to enjoy it, but boy, did I love that, after all those years of salivating!

(8) I joined NASA in 1966. In 1967, during the high times of the SST, I was assigned as project pilot on a NASAproject to explore the concept of "direct lift control", using a F8C modified by CVA to NASA specifications, using the inboard flaps, with automatic UHT movement to counterpitching moment changes. Made over 200 ILS-type approaches and had a ball (DLC worked very well - you could make the approach all the way to touchdown using DLC only, withthe stick locked, and be very precise). I've continued test flying the rest of my life, but the experience of flying this airplane I'd admired for so long stands out above most of it.

Regards, Jim Patton

What Marv Drake saw was the mock-up of the F8U-3. The Vought airplane that was in competition with the F4H-1. The F4 won, more because it had two engines and two pilots. The -3 with the J-75 engine had extraordinary performance. It easily out-accelerated the F4 during the NPE (Navy Preliminary Evaluation) at Edwards AFB. It achieved over Mach 2.2, and the test pilot, Bob Rostine, was trying to slow it down by holding it in a 4g turn. It never was tested to its Vmax which, as I remember, the aero types said would be around 2.3MN. NASA flew the airplane for a year or two after the program(F8U-3) was cancelled in Dec. 1958. NASA wrote a report which said it was the best airplane the Navy never bought.

Bob Smith

147030 is a late production F8U-2 (F8C) that was in VMF-333 at MCAS Beaufort. I flew it there as late as 25 September 1964, with a first flight in it on 25 May 1962. What I don't know is which aircraft number it was in the squadron but suffice it to say it was Delta November (DN-??) something. The log book shows that it was the mount that I flew in the President Kennedy airpower demo out of MCAS Cherry Point at MCB Camp Lejeune, later flown by me to and at Roosy Roads in December '63. It must have been good at both gunnery and radar work as I have lots of gunnery hops in the bird and then many active scramble hops out of both Guantanamo and Key West and then later it was my mount for a successful missile intercept compex flight.

What histories our log books can tell!

Wally Boeck

Jim mentioned the F8 spin program, and using the Emerg Leading Edge Droop, wing-down configuration. that brought back my own memories of the F8 departure mode and the Flight Manual recovery procedures of only blowing that droop down. i guess that it was while i was in Air Ops on Lanflt staff, we got info'd on a nasty exchange of letters among the Pacfleet, Airpac, and Navair: it seems that in Vietnam, several pilots had "departed" during combat operations, and recovered by doing a normal hydraulic "wing raising/droop extension" instead of the prescribed Emerg Droop pneumatic blow-down. and those pilots had a reason for it: with the pneumatic leading edge blow-down, you were stuck with an extended leading edge droop, couldn't retract it, and a sitting duck for Migs or Sams, due to restricted speeds and g. but by just raising the wing normally, they broke out of the spin, were able to hydraulically reconfigure back to a normal clean configuration, and depart the area at normal high speed. as i vaguely recall, the argument was that Navair was worried about overstressing the airplane. the fleet was more concerned about pilot safety, and to heck with overstress. maybe some of you vietnam F8 drivers know more about this.

bill kelly

The F4D set records for time to climb in it's heyday but other wise was no comparison to the F-8. While with VU-7 I towed a "Delmar" target 5,000 ft in trail for a Marine F4D Squadron doing a 2.75 air to air rocket shoot. I would go to the eastern edge of the range (about 90 miles if my memory is correct) turn and proceed inbound to Yuma. I was at 40,000 ft indicating .84. The Fords would launch from Yuma as I turned inbound to intercept. Not any of them could get into a firing position the first attempt. As they started to turn to intercept that big fat delta wing killed their A/S and they fell well aft. Their second attempt was at altitude and was successful but then they were out of fuel and had to land and another would launch. I would stay up for about 8 tries logging about 2.5 hrs. Another example of the Fords performance woes occurred while on a radar tracking runs SW of N. Island. We would go out about 500 miles (well outside the ADIZ) and turn inbound at 45,000 ft for radar testing. Even though we would file for an ADIZ penetration we were often scrambled upon by VFAW-3, flying Fords and doing the Air Defense Mission for that part of CA. They never once made the intercept even though we were told to hold heading, A/S and altitude. One time as I was passing Palm Dale I told the interceptor I had to turn back to N. Island as I was getting a little tight on fuel myself. This was after slowing to .70 and descending to 35,000 ft so he could catch me (he didn't). But that bird could climb, believe it held the 0 to 10,000 ft record for some time.

Jerry Kuechmann

This happened in late `62/early `63 our squadron, was based at El Toro and flying the F8E. The C.O., Claude O. Barnhill, was shot down by a Zero in 1945 while flying a Corsair. He told me that "the word" was that all the good Jap pilots were dead by this time, but that there was at least one good one left. Colonel (then lieutenant) Barnhill bailed out and was rescued at sea. The story about Barnhill has nothing to do with this particular story, I just think it`s interesting...Barnhill, by the way, was killed in a jeep accident at Cubi in `64. Anyway, Col. Barnhill was(naturally) leading the division, I was section leader, flying port side. Climbing west through about 250 I saw a single plane conning high at 2 o`clock, and called out same to the Skipper. He said "Go gate, lets get him".As we passed about 40,000, it was evident that the bogie was way, way up there and we weren`t gonna get him. At about this time, what looked like a humongus shock wave appeared behind the bogie. I figured he must have just busted mach in the climb. The next day the papers reported that our "bogie" was a missile launched from Vandenberg. The shock wave was in actuality first stage separation and second stage light off....and by the way, our bogie was over 100 miles up when this happened!

Cliff Judkins

An addition to Jim Patton's comments on the F8U-1 spin program: One of my fellow first-cruisers in VF-24 in 1949, the late David S. Ingalls, Jr., son of the Navy's first ace, was the seat-partner of Cdr (later Vice Admiral and head of the FAA) Don Engen on an airline trip from San Diego to San Francisco. When the fact that we were flying Crusaders came up in their conversation, Cdr Engen mentioned that he had been in charge of the F8U-1 spin program and had "spun the airplane more than 50 times--and used the recovery 'chute only once". After retiring from the FAA, he was killed in a glider accident.

Mal Brown

While an engineer at NAVAIR, F-8 program, I suggested a design change that would have allowed hydraulic extension of the droop without raising the wing (without adding switches). My design wasn't used, but, I understand that an electrical switch was added to the same effect. I also heard that with the droop thus extended the F-8 could out turn an A-4 in ACM. Can anyone out there confirm this last?

Laird Stanton

Experienced a couple departures, first unintentional, second...... exploring possible evasive maneauvers, yeah, that must be it. Anyway, since they were essentially just high-speed stalls, ignored spin recovery techniques, just grabbed the East-coast hassle handles (mirrors) & let it flop around, flew it out of the resulting position. More effective than a high-G barrel roll for displacing someone to your forward qtr., but less predictable end position (actually, a mismanaged HGBR initiated the first one). Entertaining for anyone watching. Probably not a good one to add to the ACM repertoire

Dave Johnson

Bill Kelly is right on target. (spin recovery) The procedure he described is the only on I ever used. Bob Geeding was a fan of this procedure as well. I never say one go for more that a turn after wing deployment and it killed that nasty up & down nose pitching that was so violent. The trick was to get the wing started down as soon as the turn stopped and you had a good nose down attitude

Rich Maughlin

As the SunDowner Historian , I would like to give some more information about the F-8C BuNo 147030 : This Crusader flew with the SunDowners VF-111 det.11 "Omar's Orphans" during the 1968/69 cruise from the USS Intrepid (CVS-11/CVW-10) as the AK-101 , this was something rare as the Mother unit VF-111 flew with the F-8H model and were preparing to go on cruise with CVW-16 on the USS Ticonderoga , (AH-1xx). The F-8C 147030 was later on converted to F-8K and assigned to an USN Fighter Reserve squadron. I have a slide and photo of the actual bird in the museum and there it has a red radome , and the the "AH" Tailcode in red as well , there are some traces of restoration , I don't know the date of this slide ! The OinC of the 68/69 Det. was LCDR W.K. "Dusty" Rhodes , the other officers were: LT Nargi , LT Thompson , LT Satrapa , LT Corah , LTJG Orlob , LTJG Rucker , LTJG Wenzel and WO Smith. The First Det. (1967) was lead by LCDR "Tooter" Teaque. the F-8C's were wearing the tail codes AH and the modex was 1x ( only 3 Crusaders) Besides the F-8 in the Air Park of NAS Fallon , there is also a F-8 Crusader in VF-111 colors ( AH-125) in the Aviation Museum in Santa Rosa CA. I hope this was of any help , if there is some one who have more information for me concerning this Detachment or the VF-111 Cruises in F-8's and/or F11F-1's please send it to me the SunDowner Historian ??? This is especially for the SunDowners who are going to attend the reunion in France , if you have something for the Historian, it's cheaper to post it in France and send it to the Netherlands , then it is from the USA !! Eagerly waiting for your reply , I send you greetings from the Netherlands!

Henk "Omar" van der Lugt

Dave, Johnson called the F8 mirrors the East Coast Hassle Handles.He referenced the use of mirrors during uncontrolled flight/departure. We called the response to a departure... "Oh s**t...what have I done now?" As an IP we used to teach our "Bugs" in VF-174 that if you did depart you're going to lose the fight. But, the first thing you do is let go, reach forward and wind the clock. By the time you're finished, you'd be back to flying the fire breathing dragon.

And, by the way...didn't most squadrons have what we called the hassle handle installed in their F8s? We did. It was a simple U shaped metal handle about 5" wide that our mechs mounted on the upper/aft/center part of the windscreen rail. It folded back and did not obstruct your forward vision. But it was a great handhold when you wanted to pull yourself around to keep an eye on the guy you're fighting.

I also knew guys that would force the fight into a left or right turn as the tactical situation dictated and they'd then unhook one of the shoulder Koch fittings of the torso harness to get a better look at what the enemy was doing. Lotsa crazy guys in F8s. I did it so I know I was one of those crazy guys.

Len "Ski" Kaine

Ask George Doubleday about spin recovery. I experienced about a turn and a halfapplied negative G before it fully developed and flew out of it with a slight increase of pulse rate.

Sam Badiner

As most will recall F8 had numerous problems with gun system. Complete fireout in early days was rare. During 'Nam it gun jams could not be tolerated. LTV engineers came up with several fixes that helped but if you did not have a good Ordnance crew problems still remained. F8C was best shooter but really tearing up banner also was rare. I was able to hit one of those Mig-21 drones one day and it flew apart in a thousand pieces. Target contractor said it could not happen because it was a composite structure. I think the target had been sitting in the desert sun for quite awhile. Anyone for composite major aircraft load bearing structure?

Wing-up spin recovery was never condoned by LTV. I know of several AARs where the wing came off during recovery. I am sure that many of you have found yourselves after departure in an extreme nose down condition with the feeling that the a/c is actually tucked under. If you are at low altitude and with wing up the tendency is obviously to get the nose back up. The combination of Gs and overspeed (beyond 220 kts, actually there was a margin and that limitation was on wheel well doors if I remember correctly) the wing could be pulled off. In cases where material was recovered it turned out that there was stress corrosion in the wing actuator mount structure.

PJ Smith

Skipper chewed me out once for launching wearing my wellingtons instead of steel toes. Made some smartass remark like "when I get woke up in the middle of the nite with the 1mc saying Launch the Alert fighter I thought seconds counted. If that Tupolev hadn't been a civilian pax airplane it could have been important. Anyway, I beat the brand X guy to the cat by about 5 seconds". Beating the other squadron to the cat was o.k. so he settled down. Decided not to tell him I launched with a down gripe for nites. Shoulda gone in my skivvies & slippers.

Dave Johnson

Fun stories. I love em. I used to do Barcaps with my hush puppie slippers. Real comfy. The Safety Officer chastised me one day. Told him he could send me home if he wanted to, so that I wouldn't have to do any more of them there Alpha Strikes. I did wear the regulation boots whenever we crossed the beach. I wasn't that dumb.

Len "Ski" Kaine

When VF-11 made the 62-63 Med cruise on FDR with brand new "multi-problems" F-8Es, our sister squadron in RR-1 Stbd was VF-14 with F-3B Demons. Practicing for some kind of extended strike, we were getting refreshed in tanking outbound at 20,000 ft. Two Crusaders and two Demons were trying to top-off from an A-3 tanker. Waiting our turn, we watched as Dick Thompson in his "Top Hat" Demon, eased smartly into the drogue, but with full throttle, couldn't push in enough to connect and start transfer. After a few tense seconds, he tapped burner, which did the trick. Never forgot his brief comment on the air -- "how humiliating."

Bill Brandel

Tony Farinella asked for inputs regarding A/B line failures and subsequent fires during the early '60's. In July of '63 I experienced one of those. It was a short A/B sensing relay line made of flexible or woven steel that failed in several a/c. As I recall, it carried 600 psi of fuel before opening the nozzles when A/B was selected. When it failed, the leaking fuel sprayed into the hot tail section which immediately torched off. Mine occurred on takeoff at Cecil Field. As it continued to burn, I commenced dumping to lighten up while turning back for immediate landing. At the 45 I experienced severe compressor stalls, engine began unwinding and I punched out. I'm not sure how many others ended in ejections but I think Jerry Unruh experienced the same fate except that he got wet in Mobile Bay or some Texas lake. I believe they replaced that flex line with a solid one and the problem went away.

Snake Morris

In 64 I flew almost all models of the F-8 including the French while Jim Flately and I did the Carrier trials on CVA-38. I was also the project pilot for the Direct Lift Crusader at the same time and made most of the Carrier landings with that wonderkind. After 2 cruises in Phantoms to Vietnam I came back to teach at TPS, and even flew the 2 seat F-8. Had another F-6A control problem in 69 during its last flight at PAX but gave it to Capt. George Watkins to deliver to Pensacola. Here is the punch line guaranteed to create dissonance in the Crusader Community. The F-6A and even the F-4B could beat the F-8 in a turning dog fight when properly flown. Fights on.

Dick Gralow

When I saw the movie "TOP GUN" I was amazed that those "Top Guns" kept departing in a hassle, and I remembered the one time I "departed." It was in a VF-191 Cougar, and I, as a "nugget" wingman tried to get on an F-86 that was on my leader. I hauled back into a tight turn and suddenly found myself looking down at the Sacramento River Delta lurching violently from side to side. I applied standard Piper Cub/SNJ/F6F spin recovery technique to no avail, and decided I would have to eject. However, when I let go of the controls and reached for the curtain, the aircraft recovered, so when Tom Cruise lost it, I yelled "let go of the controls."

Dick Partridge

About 1968 the Egyptians knocked out an Isreali patrol boat off the coast of Egypt with a Soviet Styx surface-to-surface missile, and our navy realized we had no defensive measures for such an attack. So, I was sent from GTMO to Roosy Rds. to impersonate a Styx using an F8. I was instructed to fly about 50 feet off the surface to a point behind Culebra Island, then pop up and dive on the target ships located off the south coast.Great fun! However, when I started my dive with the ships on my scope, the scope suddenly went completely blank. I told them "Wow, what happened?" Their laughing reply: "We just fired a chaff shell." It sure worked - I was impressed, but somewhat concerned that they were firing ANYTHING in my direction.

Dick Partridge

Sounds like Dick Partridge got the fun missile simulations. Did some for some tincan out of Gitmo, but was a profile that began at 20, ended at masthead at mach 1, then pop back to 20 & wait for the next callin. It got hot in that cockpit, so decided to bring along a cure the next time I drew that deal. After about 3 runs, got back to the perch & popped open my cool can of rootbeer. Didn't consider physics -- this was a biological need, after all. Probably the only time an airplane was downed for rootbeer all over the cockpit. Easier to explain root beer than the real thing though, which had been considered.

Dave Johnson

June or July of 1967 in the Death Angels of VMF(AW)235 at Da Nang RVN, Animal Norm Marshall brought back a Crusader with a gripe that reported when he went into After Burner he would get a Fire Warning Light. He completed his mission in basic engine [typical Hero Warrior Norm] and upon return griped the AB induced Fire Light. I was Maintenance Officer at that time and Gunny Vernime brought the gripe to me after "Ground Checks OK" and wanted me to test the burner on the ground. I took the Crusader to the take off end of the runway and requested an aborted take off. A few seconds after I lit the burner, the Fire Light illuminated. I rejected the takeoff. The light went out. I ran the engine up and hit the burner again. The Fire Light came on again and remained on for about two minutes after deselecting after burner. I turned off and taxied back toward the flight line. I noticed smoke blowing past the cockpit from the tailpipe. I called for a fire truck and parked in the arming area. A residual fire was still flickering below the tailpipe in the tail section. A direct fuel line to the afterburner was broken. Panatela Ed Kowalczyk was forced to eject from a Death Angel Crusader at Da Nang in 1966 after experiencing an afterburner fire on takeoff. The particulars of his fire are erased from my memory bank. The problem was not that common as I recall during my two tours as Crusader Maintenance Officer and over 1000 hours in the F8. The after burner fuel line was not the so-called Burner Pressure Sensing Line. That rigid 1/4 inch line was on the basic engine and measured/compared air pressure forward and aft of the burner cans. Snake is right about the rigid burner pressure sensing line breaking and causing accidents. Several Crusader accidents occurred during the 63-65 time frame and finally a problem was solved that had been ruled as undetermined or pilot error on previous accidents. When the burner pressure line failed, the fuel control was given an incorrect reading that caused the fuel flow to drop to the point where the engine would stabilize about 50 RPM, which would also cause the generator to drop off the line. The throttle would have no effect on the sub-idle RPM and the Manual fuel switch if selected would not electrically operate to permit the throttle to advance the RPM in manual. That meant you were in deep shit if at low altitudes like a friend of mine in the FMLP pattern at Beaufort in 1965. He went in before he could even eject. I was more fortunate and punched out about 300 feet AGL after the generator dropped off the line and the throttle would not respond. The chute popped and my feet hit the deck. I was a lucky MF. LTV and P&W put a flex line between the fuel control and the burner cans pressure point and there were no more Burner Pressure Sensing Line failures that I know of. Too bad it took so long for LTV and P&W to solve the broken line problem. Several guys died. Piss poor post accident investigation by Pratt and Whitney! Crusaders Forever!

Semper Fi. Mofak [Ed Cathcart]

As to F8 Crusader departure/spin tales, I'm reminded of one evenings (dusk) little engagment when I was gaining the advantage at about 25k, but just couldn't get enough lead to get the pipper on my opponent (wingie). I'm sure there are some who would say I never got the pipper on my opponent. I pulled a little harder when the nose started to wander still not achieving the necessary lead. I eased in a little more back-stick and was smartly thrown around the cockpit with my head/helmet bouncing off the canopy. Sounds like someone beating on the side of the a/c with a large board echoed throughout the cockpit. As I recall, I think I just let go of everything except lunch. When I recovered, I was passing through 12k, inverted, in burner (after coming out of burner at the banging sounds) and right at Mach1. And it was dark. I had gone below the horizon. Afterward we very gingerly joined up and proceeded back to Cecil Field. My wingie had a little trouble staying with me. I said I wasn't nervous, I was merely quick.

During our brief debrief, at the BOQ bar, my wingie said it looked like the a/c cartwheeled end- over-end and flames belched from the intake and the tailpipe.

Doug White

This is getting to be fun, and i'm hearing stories from people from my distant past. to back up one of those, Dick Gralow, on the F8's maneuverability vs the F4D (F6A) or F4B: i never had that experience, but while instructing in the F11F Tiger little RAG at Oceana, we frequently had the opportunity to hassle with our local F8 squadron, VF-84 i believe. well, i'm here to tell you that the little, underpowered Tiger could also out-turn the early F8---but only if the F8 driver made the mistake of staying in a level turn with the F11F. so long as the F8 made use of its vertical capability, they could make dogmeat of the Tiger, which was rapidly burning up its little bit of fuel in A/B, just to stay more or less in a constant altitude turn. at least, with the Tiger, you could pull weird last-ditch semi-stalled maneuvers, trying to dodge imaginary bullets, deep in buffet, and no F8 could stay close without risking a departure. as to last-minute emergency ejections: we in the F11F envied the F8 ejection system.

The Tiger was rated for zero-altitude ejects as i recall, but there was a long delay if you tried to use the normal face-curtain ejection without first reaching up and actuating the canopy salvo disabling lever, and setting up for a through-the-glass eject. on a normal eject, the face curtain only came partway down while the canopy slowly slid to the rear under normal, slow pneumatic pressure; when the canopy finally departed, the face curtain could be pulled the rest of the way to fire the seat cannon shell. tps experienced a student fatality when the pilot, apparently stretching a dead engine glide after fuel exhaustion to miss populated areas, waited too long, and got to very low altitude. he probably got a little frantic when the seat didn't fire immediately, and must have put extra muscle into it: he broke the 1/16" cable for the canopy/face curtain interrupt, and the seat fired with the canopy only half open; his thighs apparently hit the canopy bow as the seat fired, broke the seat tracks which then disabled the automatic lap belt release: we found him still strapped into the seat, with the chute still in its pack under/behind him, and with his thighs crushed; the canopy was found with the middle third of the bow missing. so much for low-level F11F ejections.

bill kelly

In the seventies, I recall that someone replaced the guns of an F-8J with a twin gun on one side from a pod. I heard that it was quite effective, almost too accurate (no dispersion). That plane was stuck outside the Miramar main gate when last I saw it. Anyone have more information on that project?

Laird Stanton

".... and even the F-4B could beat the F-8 in a turning dog fight when properly flown. Fights on."

And I would reply: not if the F-8 is properly flown.

Bud Collicott

from Bill Kelly, amateur F8 driver: ok, another one, 3rd hand at least, re the F8. i was on Lantflt staff at the time. suddenly came a dispatch msg, Unclas, or maybe Conf at the most, Comgtmo or ComRoosRoads reporting i believe, addressed to the whole world. it seems that the night before, while doing black night intercept practice for either a ground or ship radar, an F8 from the VC squadron had been vectored onto an unknown bogie that had suddenly showed, at very high speed, on the surface radar. the VC bird must have been a late model F8, because he was also able to see the bogie on the airplane radar. but this low-classified msg detailed how the F8 pilot had tried to intercept the bogie, but it suddenly bloomed two big blue streaks, pulled up to a near vertical climb, while also outrunning the F8, and went to astronomical altitude before zooming out of everyone's radar range at warp speed. the message was in the form of a UFO sighting msg, addressed to the whole world. within 24 hours came msgs from several on-high places cautioning everyone to make no more mention of this sighting, do no more investigation, just forget about it, write no more reports. later it turned out that this was one of the first "sightings" of something we had never even heard of---the SR-71---and USN had reported many of its performance parameters---in almost "clear" message form. (and at that time, even the U-2 was almost super-secret).

bill kelly

Back around 1963/1964, over drinks at a location I will not mention, I was told someone landed a VF-174 F-8, in flames, due to an A/B fuel line break. As the story goes, after much expense on attempted repairs to the tail section, a good tail section was obtained from the Marines at Beaufort to get this F-8 back in the air. I never did learn how the Marines managed to break the nose of their Sader leaving a good tail section? Maybe one of the Marine drivers from this period could enlighten us about this? From first hand observations I have never seen a Sader's tail section survived a 'lawn dart' maneuver? Plus I have been told by Marine drivers they were too good to let this happen.

Tony Farinella

I had first gone through the F-4 RAG, VF-101, with guys like Doug White scaring the shit out of me in the back seat of the F-4. After finishing the RAG, I was almost immediately "Retreaded" and went through Flight Training and got real Wings. In Advanced at Chase Field, VT-26, for my class we had 1-F-8 slot, 4 F-4 slots and everyone else, of course, got Scooters. Try as I might I could not gain the # 1 slot in the selection process and missed the F-8 slot and got the first F-4 slot. Oh well, off the the F-4 RAG, VF-101 again. While up at VF-101 Oceana, at the old Oregon Inlet meeting grounds, I often tangled with F-8s from the VC squadron and up from Cecil with an instructor RIO in the back of my F-4. Many of those RIOs were damn good and showed this nugget a thing or two. >From a few of them I learned to go up and down with an F-8 and to try not to ever go 'round and 'round. However, one afternoon I saw what Doug White described earlier, from my F-4 cockpit. I happened to be going 'round and 'round with this F-8. I was losing more and more with every turn. I was flying a fresh F-4J with a leaded nose and droop and a slotted tail and this F-8 was trying to pull that bit more lead on my young self. I was just approaching rudder kick-over from high speed to low speed rudder and was building up enough guts to throw in a Chinese Immalman, a cross-controlled reversal, at him. He's pulling and all of a sudden that F-8 cartwheeled end-over-end and flames and smoke belched from the from the intake and the tailpipe, as Doug put it earlier. That F-8 then FELL out of the sky, it really scared the crap out of me. . . . and I was not even in it ! So I follow him down flabbergasted. Fortunately, he recovered it. We both went back and landed at Oceana, a little worse for the wear. I am sure he had to change his nappies.

Phil Staton

My good friend Dick Gralow threw down the gauntlet and Bud Collicott jumped at the challenge. (I love this stuff) I was an IP at VF-174 for 3 years (61-64) and learned from my colleagues how to fight the F8. We had a whole bunch of great tacticians. To name just a few; Billy Phillips, TR Swartz, Jack Snyder, Duke Hernandez etc, et al. (If you were there and I didn't mention your name, sorry it's just another senior moment.)

I was later the Asst Nav in Enterprise. Once the war(?) started in NVN, I volunteered to go fight the war in F8s. Captain Mike Michaelis shot me down saying I was staying aboard. Good thing cause I ended up flying the Phantoms of VF-92 in combat from Enterprise. Sorry guys, it was a helluva lot better than flying F8s from a 27Charlie carrier. Big deck, air conditioning, no "water hours." Nice!

Back to Dick Gralow's challenge. I was fortunate enough to be a CO of the first Reserve F4 Squadron at NAS Los Alamitos and then CO of 2 Reserve F8 Squadrons at NAS Miramar.

If it was me in my F8 against me in my F4, head on, fights on, the fight would be a draw. Ya gotta know the strengths of each aircraft.

However, here's a sneaky secret that many F8 guys didn't know?? And, here's how we found the secret to beating your F8 buddy in ACM. Dick "Pete" Peters, a fellow IP in VF-174, came in for a landing on Rwy 18L at Cecil. He scraped the hell outta the tail pipe because he didn't get the wing locking handle all the way back. He got it about half way which caused all the magic sequence of things to happen but the wing did not come up. Important note...the Land Droops hydraulically extended. We studied what happened and son of a gun, you could be in a fight with another F8 (or anyone else), move the unlock handle about half way back, pull the VIW handle all the way back and you had Land Droops (or Fighting/Maneuvering Droops if you will) with the wing locked in the down position. You won't find this in anywhere in Natops. It was a devilish thing to do when turning inside another F8 with a bunch of Gs on the bird and then easing off on the Gs while keying the mike and saying to your opponent with the calm voice of a radio announcer..."You'll have to pull a little tighter because I'm tracking...guns, guns, guns". You immediately had to pull back on the stick with the top of your mask now down over your chin with your nose exposed to get back in the turn. It was psychologically devastating to have a guy on your ass, while your pulling 6 Gs and hear them calmly tell you to tighten the turn. Arrgg! The F8 stories are great and I understand that some of them are true. :-)

Len "Ski" Kaine

I must be one of the luckiest F8 drivers alive. I never had one depart (I flew ACMs with my elbow in my gut using only my wrist).

I was launched single-plane after five Cuban MiGs one day (a "Chinese fire drill." Fortunately, we never found each other. They were just looking at the New Jersey on it's way to Nam, GTMO Radar was down, and the controllers had their heads you-know-where).

But someone was really looking out for me the night I ferried a bird to Cecil Fld. I made a night IFR approach in the rain to minimums, and just as I pulled into the chocks I lost all electrical power. The generator main bus came loose when the nut fell off. (Five minutes earlier I would have eaten my seatpack.)

Dick Partridge

From Cliff Judkins, professional F8 driver (CAG 14, Lex `61-62, 27 charlie...no nite traps,one pinkie, ward room movie instead)Bill Kelly joged my memory talking about Banshees and the possibility that it could out turn a Crusader. I can tell you for sure that it could. As a nugget, maybe 150 hours in type, Herb Roberts and I had a weekend X-country to Alameda. Having heard all the stories about what a great Happy Hour Alameda hosted, we wanted to check it out. Left El Toro about 1600 Friday afternoon, zipped up the coast. As we approached the San Francisco area we saw three bogies and jumped same. Turns out they were F2H`s from the Alameda reserve squadron, and they proceed to kick our asses. Now I`m in a near mach two machine, and they are in old, obsolete Korea era jets.Every time I looked around there was at least one, sometimes two, pulling lead and generally making me look bad. The Red Baron was right.."It`s not the machine, it`s the man in the machine". Two FNG`s learned a lesson that day. VMF 323 shared a ready room with VF 141(Iron Angels) on that WestPac cruise. They flew the Demons.My hat is still off to them. Pitch black nights, away they would go..sometimes on the cat shots they would disappear below the bow, reappear, in burner, sometimes kicking up a wake. One night one of those guys came aboard and hit so hard thet the belly was on the deck with both main struts were sticking up out of the wings. "Father Mike" Reardon was their skipper, and a nicer man I have yet to meet.

In checking the Navy web site for a VC/VFC-10 listing, I found a VFC-12 listing but no -10. Inasmuch as I know of only one unit designated VFC, and never heard of a VC-12, am I correct in assuming VFC-12 is my old outfit at GTMO? (The VFC-12 web site is not in operation.)

AFAIK there was no "VFC" squadron anywhere in Naval Air. [ed. note -- not in "our" day, but later yes]

I was in VC-10 at Gtmo in 1973-74, flying the F-8K and US-2B. We informally redesignated ourselves VCF-10 because we had occasional "alert" duties and did have a fighter tasking of sorts. Skipper Steve Zwick tried to get us redesignated VCF-10 officially but no go. We had birds on alert whenever P-3s were looking around, and on the evening of July 26 '73 we actually launched the alert when two bogeys headed towards "feet wet" from Holguin (I think) while a P-3 was milling around. Fidel was making a speech down around where he'd gotten his start, Moncada Barracks or wherever, and I guess we were listening. Word from on high (as in, Stateside) was that the brass was alarmed that we'd actually *launched* the alert, but we (and the radar site) seen our duty and we done it. No shots fired, bogeys turned back.

We were VC-10, VC-8 was at Rosey Roads, VC-12 at Oceana. Only -10 had F-8s at the time, although I believe -8 had them once upon a time. VC-12 and -13 were A-4/TA-4 outfits, like the short-lived VSF-1 that took A-4s to sea on Intrepid as the "fighter" squadron/det on that CVS.

Bill Young "Windmill"

Most of the time the F8 gave indications that it did not like the flying conditions that the pilot was asking so you should let up. If you were not deeply engrossed in kicking ass you would normally let up. At one point in my F8 career I felt that only a "Ham Fisted F....." could depart the bird with all the indications it exhibited. On my acrobatics hop at VF-174 I departed at the top of a loop( after doing one perfectly). The chase driver Lcdr Murray( WW2 vet if I remember correctly) just completed the loop and started looking for the splash. After departure I sat on my hands (ala Doc Townsend's brief and the bird recovered itself. I joined up with leader for trip back home. After that I had confidence that the bird would not spin unless you went out of the way to help! In fact that is what the Vought spin test pilots concluded. Subsequently, there were occasions when pride would not let me let up and I had induced departures, but you know what ? frequently your adversary loses sight and you live to fight again. And before you guys start I am not recommending departures as a winning tactic! The F8E-FN prototype was lost in a landing configuration stall/spin during early flight testing. Pilot ejected after bird pitched up at low altitude. With pilot and seat gone A/C totally recovered and flew into cornfield at Forney, Texas. While out there investigating this accident I ran into Ol' Forney Kate. She was happy to see all the new business. LTV had cameras mounted on the vertical stabilizer and it recorded the total recovery and the very controlled landing into the cornfield. F8 s do not survive such landings, it disintegrated across the patch. At least 2 A7s suffered the same fate except that at least one landed in the corn/cotton patch intact. One was hauled back and used as structural test item. Pilots' names have been omitted since they would add nothing to the story.

PJ Smith

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