Julian Baucom begins Martin-Baker approach. Photos by Rodney Rogers in another RF8, using Bay 2 camera.

 
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THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

201.

I was a TPS Class 43 product, and went to Carrier Suitability in Flight Test in May 1966. I think the F-8 was a D Model.

Many Many approaches in it and other CVS birds. The autopilot gains were not tight enough to be a good ACLS bird, and along with that, the dirty flight characteristics of the F-8 would have been a challenge to the best of autopilots of any era. The A-4 was in the same boat except that it's flying qualities were not so ridiculous.

We were clearing the A-6, A-7, and F-4 at the same time, and they all had good success as ACLS birds.

Even with all the strikes against the F-8D, most touchdowns were plus or minus 50 feet of the target touchdown point, and 3 feet either side of the centerline. We were not so confident to let the weather get down to minimums with the F-8, but I was the A-7 project pilot along with Fred Heuber until he left in 1967, and was well inside the waveoff point on a number of occasions before the LSO's saw the aircraft in low weather. That was after becoming quite comfortable with it. Carrier Suit LSOs were Spence Thomas (VF-211) and Tommy Davis (F-4) at that time.

The other thing that we had at the time that was interesting was a direct lift F-8, which may have been the one that was a D. They had rigged the flaps so you could call for climb or descent by rolling a trim potentiometer and the airplane would just jump up or down one ball height. Didn't take much practice to get the hang of that at all. That lead to direct lift on the Viggie I believe.

Skip Coffman

202.

Vigie DLC ? I was the RVAH-3 LSO from 8/65 to 8/68, never had DLC in the RA-5C or the A-5A.  Once we got to slow the big bird with 50 degree flaps around the boat, it was a jewel to fly.  I got all 10 of my initial day traps on one(1) load of fuel with the "TOAD" Dave Fall the working LSO, but my heart was with the F-8,still is. My tour in the RA-5C came after VF-11/ CAG 1.
Bill Asbell

203.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but the hands on the head illusion was invented or at least was used in the 50's by a few jokers who would insert a coat hanger in the upper portion of the flight suit rigged with the arms folded atop or behind the head just to jerk "paddles" chain. It grew out of the procedure of climbing out of the parachute harness for carrier landings in props inasmuch as the chute was considered to be worse than useless in non-ejection seat machines in the landing pattern. I can recall busy times flying hellcats and disrobing in parade formation before leaving marshall. Thanks for tickling the old memory box.

Best wishes, Fred Ferrazzano

204.

I first flew the YF8U-l, BuNo. 140446, on 17 Aug l956, in Flight Test. Then got the F8 project pilot job when Maj. Lynn Helms resigned. Most of the flying was in YF8U l4l342. Left my project to join our first West Coast F8 sq . Jan 58. after going to FAGU. 5 of our Marines were selected to go to Crusader College, at Moffitt. By that time the planes in 211 and I believe l54at Miramar, were worn out, so naturally they were assigned to the Marines of VMF 334. My job, with the previous F8 time, was to test/and deliver l2 of each F8 to the RAG, and then our first sqdn. My friend since l954, was Maint. of 211, working for the great Red Dog Davis, who bless him, would rather fly than put the planes down for Maint. The tails were all bobbed, , several had no steps,so to get in the plane we had to drive up an NC-5, they leaked, and all in all had been run hard and put away wet. I insisted that all be fixed that could be fixed, and it was traumatic for both my friend, and me. Red Dog keptright on flying, as before!!! The planes on the other hand, from l54 were in quite good condition. They still were quite old and tired, and you could imagine the problems we had trying to work with the Navy in the checkout at Moffitt, and teach our troops with these old airplanes. Eventually we taught the 5 Marines, our troops, and formed the squadron a little later. 

We frequently met VF154 on deployments to El Centro. Until we got our planes back from Moffitt we were flying F4D, and then phased them out as we accepted the balance of the old F8. My next sq. after going to the Air Force Fighter Wpns School at Nellis, in the Fl00, was VMF45l,in l959-60 time frame, with all NEW Planes. What a change. Lots of interesting things with the F8 in Flight Test--56-58. Maj. Tim Keane took over my project, and was killed in 141 342, with a PIO soon after takeoff in l958. 

In conclusion, both squadrons beat us in getting the F8, --dont know who was first--but We were delighted to get the F8 operationally in the first West coast F8 squadron, and loved it, fought against many in the tom and jerry area and checked out many in ACM. Recall Chuck Dacy, and Duane Varner from Navy were about the best in the ACM business?? !! I saw Tom Hayward recently at a Golden Eagle meeting, and talk to Geo Watkins occasionally. Who else remembers back to 55-60 time frame, in the F8 business.?? 
Hal Vincent

205.

In reply to Hal Vincent. I saw his mention of George Watkins. That really brought home some fine memories although I never got to serve with him. I was originally assigned to join VF-132 after RAG training at Cecil with VF-174. I got to know a bunch of the guys at VF132 and really was looking forward to serving and flying with them. Cdr. Watkins (at the time) was CO of VF-132 and he was a great guy. I was married on June 2, 1962, at the Navy Cecil Chapel and, of course, like all jg's at the time I was poorer than a church mouse. I couldn't afford a photographer so George made a call to the base photo lab and they sent a photographer to shoot the wedding. George caught my wife (Dolly)'s bouquet at the simple reception we had at the ORF. I still get a laugh when I tell people that our whole wedding cost $65.00. Truth! George had a big Cadillac Convertible at the time and he parked the damn beast so I couldn't get my car out to take my bride home. (no leave available) I still remember taking off the parking brake and pushing that 5000 pound monster out of the way so I could get out of there. Where is he now? I would love to remind him of the fact that he was supposed to be the next to get married after catching my bride's bouquet!!! It should have worked cause I am still married to the same sweet girl.
Brady James

206.

P.S. If flying a swing-wing, twin engine plane aboard a super deck is  "UNFORGIVING" how would you describe landing a F-8 on a 27C?  and at night...eeek!

Jim "Fox" Harrison)

207.

Jim, I'm sure most all the rest of us adamantly agree with you. And then some gremlin makes me think about the F7U guys who brought them aboard 27C's at nite and even before then, the F4U guys making a 50' to 100' foot pass at nite using a mast head lite for reference, looking for a guy in some lit up suit with nothing but a straight deck, barrier and pack ahead of him. I think LTV / Chance Vought had a desire to make it tough. But I believe I am correct that the F8 "enjoyed" by far the highest accident rate of any jet aboard 27C's. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm in error 'bout that. 
Jack Finley

208.

Gee Whiz Guys. What do you want? I was still in Navy when Vought designed the first carrier based supersonic fighter. The drag component even in landing configuration was so low that additional drag was needed to slow it down for carrier landings. Remember how efficient it was at altitude. .83 mach at 41-43000 ft and 1800 lbs fuel flow. And compared with today's fighters it is still comparable in top speed with equivalent configuration.

Also good to hear that Hal Vincent is still out there amongst us.

To "Zoomie" as he was affectionately known when he was "Company Officer" at "Canoe U". I believe that there was a VF-132. "Gorgeous" George is running a sailplane operation near Edwards. Saw him last at an F-8 reunion. George is not as colorful as he used to be but who is these days. From the glint in his eye I do not believe I would push him even slightly.
PJ Smith

209.

Phillip Smith wrote about the early F-8s above. In 1963, the F8Ds [F8U2N] cruised at .94 mach at 1600# fuel flow. The J-57 just got better and better. I believe the F8D could have reached 2.5 if anyone had the guts to violate NATOPS and do it. Another reason guys were timid about trying it was because of the inadvertant jettison of an F-8 near max mach by Jim Strawn (sp?) which damn near ended his flying and his life. 
Mofak

210.

Actually, "Gorgeous George" Watkins was CAG of Air Group 13 not the CO of VF-132. I was a J.O. in VF -132, and our skipper was "Herk" Camp. But you're right about one thing: George was a great guy. I was scheduled to fly with him one day in our brand new -2NE's and I was waiting and waiting in the ready room for him to brief me. At about scheduled takeoff time, the SDO looked out the window, and said, "Hey Mike, aren't you flying with CAG today. When I replied in the affirmative, he said, "Well, CAG is climbing in his airplane"! I was out the door like a shot, did the worlds quickest pre-flight, jumped in, and just made it to the runway where we made a burner section "go" not coming out until we reached 45K, where George proceeded to brief me over the radio on the inner and outer workings of the APQ-97 (or whatever kind it was) radar we had on board. By the way, he didn't bother to debrief either. A man of few but well chosen words!

Mike Denham

211

mofac--- plez tell me you dont really belive no 2.5 in a d cause natops sez dont do it.??? since when did natops stand in the way of an f8 driver? i flew all but a's & d's, best one i flew was h. big motor( 420 i think) & not to heavy. no 2.0 there. best i did waz about 1.8 in a c.jack, love the site even if we got ex vigie drivers on. hi lizard. dam good lso but i gave you a lot to work with. 
v/r weaZel

212.

Well, do you remember the dark nights before lighted decks? I can recall moonless/overcast nights when even on deck you could not see anything but a taxi directors wands. A pilot from my brothers squadron, VA86, walked over the side of the flight deck one night. What I do recall about the first lighted deck we operated from (Red lights from the mast) was that I could actually see other things on the flight deck!!! Later I understand that white lights were and are still in use for night ops.

Hall Martin

213.

In the early 70s the F-8 night carrier landing accident rate was 36.6 Alpha accidents per 1000 landings. At this time everyone was crying how the Vigilante was so bad at the boat. The Vigilante night rate at this time was 15.7---on a large deck! Believe the A-6 rate was close to zero. I hated to sit in marshal at night. I start coughing almost to the point of dry heaves but once I started down it all went away. Most of been something about self preservation and it worked. No accidents in 127 night landings. Won't say anything about the close calls but one would make a good story sometime. 
Jerry Kuechmann

214.

F-8 Hotel would do M 2, but above 1.8 it tried to escape in all axis. I would liken it to putting a 4 ft. disc on top of a flag pole and and trying to balance it there while sitting on it. It would also recover in 1 turn from a spin if the proper procedures were used. It's behavior in spins was nearly identical to the T-33, and the recovery procedures were the same except on the T-33 you did not use ailerons in the direction of the spin.
Ted Chandler

215.

Bragging rights, I had a F8C up to about a little over 2.3 one day, ATC was picking me up every third sweep in excess they said of 1400+ WHO KNOWS FOR SURE It didn't come apart or burn up.
Duane Kalember

216.

Vought Test Pilot aka "VEGAS" had an unofficial vmax for an F8E at the J57s most efficient altitude(37K) of 1.96 or thereabout. The bird was trimmed high and the aug systems had backup batteries in case the bird started to trade ends and flameout. Those who have been at the upper end will remember a very different airplane and it could become very uncomfortable. There are others online who should remember this event as I believe that it was somehow documented by the support crew.

Re accident rate on 27Cs. Move an F8 squadron from large deck to 27C and AARs went up 25%. Probably true for other airplanes but not as severe since approach speed a major factor.
PJ Smith

217.

Does anyone remember f8 instructors from '61 & '62? Dale Kimble ( flew into the ground on last straffing run opposite direction, uphill) Fritz Beidenwig ( died of cancer) Lt Hickey Bruce Morehouse (last seen at Reno Air Races in '98 ) I went thru the Navy RAG in '61, '62 with a bunch of other nugget Marines. 
John Sledge 

218.

Concur with the comments of others regarding F8 stability in the max mach range. Early in 1963, as a VF-174 FRP, I took a brand new F8E to 1.78 before the remaining fuel became a problem. As I recall, Pete Peters was chasing me in an F8C and wound up several miles behind due to the power differential between the two aircraft. Above roughly 1.6 it started getting so squirrelly I was happy to deselect A/B when I got to bingo fuel. "Slewing" is perhaps the best word to describe it.

I also seem to recall that it wasn't until the F8E that the mach meter was accurate at the high end speeds. So a reading of over 2.0 in a F8A-F8C was in actuality quite a bit less when the corrections were applied to indicated mach.
Tom Corboy

219.

I have followed the Crusader stories for the last couple of years. I saw the recent duel on speeds develop and didn't think I qualified . I recall just after the ventral fin equipped planes (C?.D?,other) came out we were supposed to be restricted to 1.8 as I remember. Coming back from San Diego in '59 or '60 with a nice new bird, I hit 1.82 The plane seems to be getting a little more sensitive than usual so I decided that maybe I should back off. It would hardly be an endoresment for me, the squadron, the Navy or anyone else for the skipper of the RAG with 40 Crusaders, to lose one that way. The F8 was a great bird and remains so, even if only in our memories.
Bill Houser

220.

Another thought on the F-8 accident rate. It was also in the early 70s that AIRPAC listed it's accident rate with and without F-8 accidents. Apparently they felt that the F-8 was making them look bad in comparison with AIRLANT, which had no F-8s. It was also just prior to and during this period that the minimum Training Command score for a nugget to get assigned to F-8 was abolished. A few years latter it was reestablished but a lot of damage was done during this period. 
Jerry Kuechmann

221.

In response to PJ's Question about CV accidents in the 'Sader on 27C's vs. the BIG DECKS I must confess that before I retired from Vought as the head of Flight Safety my files could have given an absolute year-by-year landing accident rate. I doubt those files still exist even on microfilm or punch cards (remember those?) Let me put it this way----I day and night Qualled on the Indy in the 1P then deployed in Intrepid. Next cruise was on Enterprise (note: Big --little-----Great Big) Last day and night qual in F8H in Ranger as CO of the Recalled reserve Squadron VF-703.("Punchy" note that I said day AND Night ((like all but four of my pilots)). My point is not to give a resume" but to give credence to my conclusion: landing an F-8 on a big or very big deck is piece of cake and bears no resemblance to the 27C difficulty.  Forget about pitching, rolling and heaving (all a lot less on the big'uns) just consider one thing; hook-to-ramp clearance. You former LSO's back me up on this-----Center ball on 27C hook-to-ramp 9 Ft. Enterprise/Kitty Hawk---17 Ft. Those big decks were like Landing at Cecil or Miramar
Fang Liberato

222.

I thought I could keep still/quiet. But having been a long time LSO and F8 nite driver, primarily on 27C's, I have to agree with Fang. But my gut kept telling me, it was all just varying degrees of "hairy". Where's the bar stool and foot rail? Are there any Safety Center types out there that can attach some facts to this?
Jack Finley

223.

I would never, make that NFW never, go into an ACM event with even my best friends, and be satisfied to "lose". If I know the ROE is set against me, I cheat. If they want one for a 1 vs 2 hop, I send 4. I use chaff, clouds, the sun, UHF jamming (simple keying the mike on their freq). I use the old "Marine Hook". I launch early, etc. Whatever it takes. There is always a way if you are willing to cheat enough. In Have Drill there would often be a second bird show up when the guys began to get the hang of the 17. Pissing and moaning about cheating. Tough shit, expect your enemy to cheat. Better yet cheat them first.

Israeliis were good drivers but our F8 and F4 guys kicked their ass most of the time when we had them at NKX at the old Top Gun. Ask Frosty, Hollywood Dan, JC Smith and the others there. They used 10,000 ft as the knock it off altitude. We used the deck as the deck. Our guys had more balls. They were good, but even Randy Cunningham could have held his own with most of them.

What this whole thing tells me is that our leadership, CAGs, COs, etc. are not fighter pilots. Fighter pilots would never rationalize losing to anybody for any reason. If I am CAG and the rules are stacked against us so much that even cheating couldn't get it, then I don't go. Remember Aim/Ace eval? We let the USAF dictate the rules and the F-15 beat our F-14. This would never in a million years happen in real combat.

In my heart I know this is true. Our guys will always be better if our leaders allow it. Our airplanes, even the Blue suiters, are always better. Carrier pilots are better because the weak get filtered out. In the USAF the weak get promoted. Higher accident rates equal better pilots, law of survival. That's why the F-8 community was better during the 60's, weak asses were splattered on the ramps.
Bob Heisner

224.

After reading all the mail about F-8 max speed, I had to break out my old copy of "Aerodynamics for NavCads" (college trained Naval Aviators already knew that shit), that we used in VF 174 academics. When I say we I mean the hard core who put the program together from their TPS experience, like Doc Townsend, Art Derrick, Jack Snyder, et al. I recall the schlieren photographs of the F-8 in supersonic flight that depicted the (model in a wind tunnel) shock wave at various ss mach numbers up to 1.9, of course becoming more oblique as the Mach increased. Theory was, as the F-8 approached 2.0, the shock wave would start to lay back over the rudder and yaw stability was reduced, hence the published max Mach limits, higher for the ventral fin models, and lower somewhat without stab aug. Art had rigged a Topping model between a yoke with a handle (visualize a slingshot), held with rubber bands attached to the wing tips. As he cranked the handle faster, the nose and tail would diverge in what we described as the "dumbbell effect". Crank fast enough and the thing would go through neutral stability then unstable and presumably break up in real flight.

Most of us thought it all a ruse to keep it the FNGs from breaking the speed records and of course took any opportunity to test the theory. You all know the rest, get the machine up to 50k, do an easy bunt to get through the number, then let it cook at the isothermal layer (36089' on a standard day). If you're serious, get a photo bird to tag along to report the outside air temp. Lower the seat just in case, and watch the Mach meter and the fuel gage. Sure enough at about 1.7 IMN the nose would start "slewing" as Tom Corboy says. The later Es seemed to have better stab augs. I do not recall any one going out of control, but it was not the same solid feeling as pushing a Phantom or later thru 2.0. And no one had the courage to turn the stabs off at max Mach. We had some -2NEs delivered with water injection, don't know why, but the systems were disabled before any new attempt at a speed record was tried.
TR. Schwartz

225.

In response to some of the recent traffic on the F 8 accident rate on 27C class carriers. One has to realize that on most of these small ships the F 8 had a hook to ramp clearance of 9.5 ft on a perfect, 3 wire pass. This small margin for error coupled with the relatively high approach speeds made for some pretty dicey work, especially at night or with a heaving, pitching, rolling deck. Those of us who worked the F 8 from the LSO platform have seen or experienced many close calls that never showed up on any AAR or other report. Hell, I still remember the night I slapped the hook on the round down on the Shang. Scared the absolute shit out of me. It was my third flight of the day and we had been pulling G's all day in a CAWEX with the French. Lucked out with nothin but a well deserved ass chewin during the debrief.

VF-62 had the privilege of making a few landings on the Enterprise during its shakedown cruise south of Gitmo. The whole division taxied to the one wire. We couldn't believe how far down the deck we had to land and the height we experienced above the ramp on the approach. What a treat. I do not doubt that the accident rate on a big boat was much lower than on a 27C.
Brady James

226.

 Re: VMF-323 0n the Lady Lex We had 1 barrier engagement- hook wouldn't come down- and no other onboard AARs. Max arresting fuel wt- 1500#. We also flew our -2ns up to 1.9 and if some of the Lts didn't do more than2,0 I'm surprised. You Know how Lts are. How about that, Jud? 
Fred Watts [Black One]

227.

Time dims the memory and I am not quite sure of the following information. The 27C with it's shorter deck required the lens be set at a 3.5 degree glide slope to get a 10 foot hook to ramp clearance. The Midway class used a 3.0 degree slope to also get a 10 foot hook to ramp clearance. I have had no experience with the supper class CVs and do not recall the lens glide slope settings.
George Clare

228.

Gentlemen, It appears that we are accumulating considerable input re the F8's more critical carrier performance than most, if not all, of the tactical a/c of its vintage. That criticality was even more pronounced on 27C's and raised to another level at nite on 27C's. While a lot of it has to do with minimal hook to ramp, lighting etc., I believe there was another major contributor. My recollection (and we are in deep trouble when we use that) is that one of the items that made all of the variants except possibly the J so critical was the "flat spot" in the power-airspeed curve. Because I am a little rusty on this, I will certainly defer to people such as George Aitcheson or Hot Dog Brown, Bill Brandel, Bob Heisner et al who have kept their Aero, and Stability and Control texts open and referred to as opposed to myself who would have to go digging in the attic. I believe this "flat spot" was mentioned by PJ Smith in one of his very fine inputs. In very basic terms, in the dirty configuration at one power setting, nose or attitudinal change would hold the a/c on its intended flight path over a range of about 10 kts. Naturally those 10 kts were pretty much in the desired approach speed ranges. And what exacerbated that deficiency was the fact that when you reached the back side of that curve, the slope was "horrendous" and the bird really fell out of the sky. All of us know how the problem became literally and figuratively a killer at nite, where attitudinal changes of a small nature could readily and easily go undetected - most particularly by the pilot. LSO's were better at picking it up then we were. Go on guys, admit it. All of us have watched PLATs and LSO's can ALL relate incidents where the bird is on the rails for a reasonable period and all of a sudden-------------. Again, George, Hot Dog Bill, Bob et al - jump in and make it right if required. Thx, 
Jack Finley

229.

Jack, you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with the flat-spot- in-the-power-curve explanation. This was especially critical if the pilot was slightly high and slightly fast. The APC power would be back, decelling, coming down. Now we're on-speed (momentarily), but the power stays back, sensing that the power required is correct. When the ball starts to drop, usually in-close it seemed, the nose comes up and the power comes on, but it's too late. The power required increases much faster than the power available, and there's no way to go but down. Day/visual gave the pilot a horizon, and the incipient deceleration was easier to detect.

We had 14 ramp strikes, from tailhooks to tailcones, on Hannah in '69 in spite of numerous calibrations of the ball, at least one fatal and three or four alphas.
Cole Pierce [Nickel 105] / LSO

230.

The flat spot on the curve. -- As you all remember the Sader would handle quite nice a little on the back side once you got the hang of it but the visability was bad and the tailpipe and your reputation was in jeopardy. If you fooled around with a wing down, land droop down PA configuration for chuckles, the thing behaved like a Demon (Oh my God). I recall some early days , before the angle of dangle was installed, when we did flat paddles FCLP at Fentress, in case the new-fangled mirror couldn't be trusted. Jim Shannon was the LSO. No cut, just lower the nose on the cut signal. I don't remember anyone trying it aboard the ship.

The early birds. light, were real gliders. Hence the notion that your F8 carrier landings were only as good as you were with your right hand. Power controls the altitude, sez Grampa Pettibone, who never got a little high in close in the F8 and really wanted to get aboard. Ask George Watkins.

Fortunately, the AA lights let the LSO keep track of the stick twitchers in close at night. My standard brief always included the statement " if you haven't practiced it in close before in the daytime, don't try it at night". And, before the LSO Natops, "you're starting to climb" meant now is the time to finesse the stick so we can all get to the movie in time. Prefaced with the alert that the deck is moving, the call indicated that it's time to put more faith in paddles than the optical landing device. "Attitude" meant just that and meet the deck with full power.

I always thought we had the glide slope set at 4 degrees on the 27c, providing a nominal 10 ft hook to ramp and 3.5 on the Midway. Anything less and it was hard to see over the nose for line up if the WOD was 35kts or +, especially in the Whale. -- And we let helo drivers in Tailhook? 
TR.Schwartz

231.

Jack, I thought I'd weigh in (lightly of course - Sader drivers never have strong opinions) on the Sader's speed ability. The old log book says that late in '62 I became a squadron test pilot and while I got shanghai'd out of the bird in 65-6 and early 7, from the start to the finish in '68, I flew a ton of test hops. While one had an engine blow up and lots of other emergencies, most had the prescribed speed run.

In the same way that T R Swartz describes it, starting at in the 46-48K range and letting down to the isothermal layer, the F8U-2 (ne. C) would reliably hit its 1.92imn. Duct buz at 1.4 was occasional and fairly regular in the decel. Yaw was touchy above 1.6 but not hairy. Frankly the biggest concern was engine rpm and temp limits. All in all, rolling the bird on its back for a negative 1G check close to home before letting down into the break, produced far more excitement when unexpected things quit or fell into your face!
Waldo [Wally Boeck]

232.

First a comment, then a question. My squadron(VMF-323) did the last WesPac cruise on the "Lex",a 27 charlie, prior to the old girl becoming the training carrier(F8U-2`s, we got `em from VF-142). We were young, we were bullet proof, we had a good time. About six months after we returned to the land of the big PX, we requalled on a "big" boat, whose name escapes me now after37 years. I think it was the 62 boat but can't be sure of that. Anyway, that was like landing at NZJ after the Lex, course like all really good fighter pilots, we never missed a movie in the ward room after the sun went down.  We left the night stuff to the "Iron Angels" and their Demons, but that's another story. Now my question, and I guess this is directed at the test pilots among us.  Does anyone know of a fighter with a more vicious snap/spin charactersitic than the U-bird?  I suppose that "the double barreled shit can" might be, but can`t be sure. Comments welcome.
Cliff Judkins

233.

Re: APC -- I was skittish from the outset at trusting George, but we were directed to use it [LSO's could tell from the smoke trail if APC was/wasn't being used, it would jack the throttle around].  I would block the throttle from about the burble on in; if George tried to pull it off, I went manual. After my close encounter of the worst kind, I added another twist--busting APC when the ramp went out of sight no matter what. [Yes, I became a deck spotter. Paddles debrief after a no-lens, no-Movlas OK-3: "Johnson, I always thought you spotted the deck, now I know it". Trick was to spot ahead of the angle notch so there'd be no DNAR].

Also learned early on that the stabs would sometimes give a vigorous kick off the cat, so would shut 'em off before the shot, until cleanup. Some heavy gave me a lecture for doing that, so I quit admitting it.

Wonder how many other little non-standard gimmicks guys used that they can now 'fess up to. 
Fireball Johnson

234.

A few years ago, when VF-43 was the primary East Coast adversary squadron, they had a bag of Kfirs as their primary (small fast) bad guy a/c. The IAF was kind enough to send one of their Kfir squadron commanders (multiple MIG killer) over to fly w/43 for two weeks to show us how it should be done. During the two weeks the guy was @ Oceana he did not win one fight. He got his butt kicked by all the 43 pilots, 1v1 Kfir/Kfir, and all others that he went beak to beak with. He went home licking his own butt. I teach these young guys in F-14 sims and as Brick said in his msg, "these guys are good". You all should be proud of the legacy you left them. They wear it proudly and with great skill. The quality cut is very high and it shows. Todays political environment does them no favors and, God love'em, they ask none. 
John Allen VF-24 63-66 

235.

re:  the nostalgic message from Jim Westberry (Ole' Blue), an Air Force Exchange pilot who accumulated 500 hours in "our" F8.

I had the privilege of flying with Jim in VMF-312 in 1964. Despite his deprived cultural background, he was an exceptional officer. He learned from us, and we learned from him. It was a textbook example of what the exchange program *should* be. But much more important, Wes was a very fine stick, and he fit right in with us.

The only thing I have against the man is an incident he has probably forgotten: he deprived me of my only real shot at an ejection-seat experience. We were on a two-plane GCI exercise out of El Toro during rapidly deteriorating weather. My airplane started to fail within 30 seconds of wheels up, with one of those sneaky nozzle-open afterburner failures. [Remember those? I think the real faults of that airplane (F8E) would not even take one hand to count, but the A/B nozzle-open failure gets my vote for #1. Maybe #2 was the occasional failure of the inflight full-fuel automatic shutoff valve, as discovered by Cliff Judkins in mid-Pacific; would you agree, Cliff?] Anyway, me'n Ole' Blue got sort-of on top between the rapidly building cumuli, and as the weather crapped out, so did my airplane. By the time the GCI guys got us back together maybe 15 minutes later, it seems to me (through the haze of time) I had no more functioning electronics of any sort (nav, radio) *and* the pitot system was frozen over, so I was a little short on situational references, and the nearest hole in the weather was probably Cabo San Lucas.

Since he was my only ticket back to base, I was glad to see Wes back with me, and we started to let down through what had become some very thick and occasionally turbulent clouds. Wes was leading, of course, and it was only when we were within the clouds that I became aware that due to some control problem, I could not fly straight ahead. Either I was sliding into him or I was sliding out into the goo, and it would sort of snap from one state to the other - not conducive to good formation flying. As we let down, the clouds got quite thick and I was worried about losing him; if I had, I would have had few choices left. The point of this story is that, despite the idiot too-close in on his wing flopping around like a dying fish, Ole' Blue never wavered. He flew an absolutely solid, beautiful lead, and I remain impressed by his steely nerves. 'Course, maybe he just had his eyes shut so he wouldn't have to watch me out there flailing around.

I found out a couple of days later that the weird and subtle control problem was due to a cable clamp that, with ailerons neutral, was exactly centered on top of a hydraulic line. Bizarre.

Thanks, Wes! Really good to hear from you!

Rem Stone VMF-312

236.

Concur with all the above. After nugget CQ (Day/Night F8-E) on Enterprise (cirica 68). No real problems except several hard power and your low calls while passing through the the 90 at 150 msl (was not going to miss the ball) conducting night CQ with an extended day pattern (no CCA) why I am not sure. I thought that was the way it was done then weather permitting? I was a must pump maybe there were other reasons I needed not to know at the time. Seven days later I was looking at the rear end of a 27C (Bonnie Dick/Day IFR) in the Tonkin Gulf for the first time. Almost waved off at Ball Call to regain composure get a little better mentally prepared for the next look at the short deck. With a comforting roger ball from the LSO (Cole Pirece ?) all worked out OK. We had some really great LSO's during this period. Of course great ones in other periods to but this was mine as a nugget! Thats the way it was then Fly Learn and Win. I recall that VF-211 (Nichols) was the day/night Fighter Air Power (F-8E) and the VF 24 Page Boys were the Day Fighter Air Power (F8-C) Generator limitation at night? God Bless Guy Cane a great Gentleman, Naval Officer and True Warrior.
[unidentified]

237.

I've been wanting to say it for a long time Bob, but you said it much better than I could have. Real fighter pilots know the feeling - That big adrenaline rush at the first opportunity to fight. Never a thought of losing, and doing whatever it took to win. Hell cheating was always part of it. I learned it way back in training command flying T-28s. I was just getting the feel of ACM and my instructor started easing towards my six. So, screw the 40" and 2400 rpm limit, it was all levers full forward and I had him for lunch. He probably still wonders how I did it. I never forgot that experience and never entered a dog fight just for fun and I always used the whole airplane and the entire Vn diagram to win. Never met a real fighter pilot who didn't do likewise. - - and the last guy back into the ready room never had a chance anyway. 
Jim Roberts 

238

Cole Pierce mentioned the '69 Hancock........."14 ramp strikes, from tailhooks to tailcones, on Hannah in '69 in spite of numerous calibrations of the ball, at least one fatal and three or four alphas."

As a student in the RAG '69 to '70, all us FRPS that were paying attention knew that something was way wrong with Hancock, as opposed to the other boats. That was proven when my RAG roommate Guido Carloni, off Hawaii on the way to Westpac, hit the ramp, wiped the mirror off of Hancock, and was killed. When CNAP came out to Hawaii to put the mirror back on they discovered that it had been misinstalled for some time......like the last overhaul. It had been installed too far aft, turning the 9.5 foot hook to ramp into something way less than that. So much for the many calibrations. That little oversight also turned another of my Boat School classmates, Rick Amber, into a paraplegic after he hit the ramp, and severed his spine, having his parachute caught in the superstructure, when he hit a stub of angle iron with his back on the island.

Yeah, we all had the "true attention getter" nights on the 27C's in our Gators. Anyone who said that they never had a night when their knees weren't shakin' when the plane captain poked his head over the canopy rail, after putting the chocks in on the #1 A/C in the "4 row", is a liar...........but aren't we all. All of the eccentricities of our most favorite ride in the world set us apart, and I for one am thankful for it. I'm also thankful for Hotdog, Moon and Bug, who kept my sorry, somewhat myopic, ass off the ramp many a night.

Keefer Welch

239.

I had the YF8U project in Flight Test way back in l956 and then went to VMF334, and after Nellis Fighter Wpns School, to VMF45l for a short period. Then on to VX-5/F4 etc. During test work we received one of the first telemetering birds, and it was an F8U around l957. It came with van, engineers, readouts etc. Most of the test planes had a photopanel with selected instruments, and a big light, and when we pushed the button on the stick and recorded the frame counter in the airplane, we could bring back data for the engineers. This panel was normally installed in a recessed area/hell hole, and included a set of the primary instruments we wantedto record. 

In any case, one of my early flights, after the test part, resulted in a really bad spin. I was pulling a lot of g, and the old fashioned snap, that we used to use to hold on the mask, came loose, so I rolled in a lot of back trim, to keep the G on-- refastened mask, and then forgetting about all the trim I yanked the stick back a lot more to get more g. as I ran in a lot more aileron. Boy, was I surprised, as it went into a violent snap roll and spin. A classic inertial coupling maneuver, caused by the G, with aileron, at high angle of attack. The wind tunnel work had not been done, and no one knew how to recover from an F8 spin. I had done a lot of spin work, and tried the full aft stick, opposite aileron etc, but to no avail. Started at around 26,000. Legs banged below the knee on the inst panel, wild gyrations in pitch, and high yaw rate--a most uncomfortable ride. Nothing worked, and no one would ever have dreamed to blow the wing. Anyway after some l2 turns (unknown that the telemetering was transmitting a mile a minute to the ground van) the rates dropped a little. Roy Gray, a wonderful Marine pilot/test pilot, was watching and said you had better GET OUT. I tried one final effort by pushing the stick all the way forward, at the bottom of a pitch, and the planes nose dropped to the classic l90 deg. nose down position, at l0,000 and recovered at around 5. Went over l2 turns, and all miserable. 

Turned out in test work later that the LTV fellows could only recover l in 3 times, without using the spin chute, with clean airplane, but as we know with droop blown out it was easy. It is interesting that the telemetering data obtained in the van exposed my goof, but helped in the final F8U test/recovery procedure development. Sounds like you had the same spin experience and would love to hear your impressions, did you blow the wing, turns, etc. Perhaps you heard from others?? .In all my years of ACM I always kept the stick close to the center of the left and right area, using only perhaps l/4 to l/2 inch of aileron for inertia coupling to increase the turn in real heavy ACM. Again, All the Best!! 
Hal Vincent.

240.

I believe you are right on with your comments concerning the F8 power curve. Unlike the classic fish hook curve it did indeed have a flat spot right in the approach speed range and as you pointed out, the back side of the curve was extremely steep. Thank goodness for super LSO's who got quite good at recognizing the a/c was slowly decelerating and keeping us from getting into the back side of the curve where as we know, one would find himself sitting on a man hole cover with wings. Of course night ops were far more difficult for the LSO's to catch the changes since they could be very subtle. I believe the root of the F8 carrier suitability problems resided in this area. Other areas brought up certainly were contributing factors. Hope this makes sense because I don't have a clue as to where all those flying qualities and performance manuals have gone! 
George Aitcheson

241.

It's not so much whether you cheat to win, it's the joy in doing it! 

In early '66, Randy Rime, Bob Grammar, and I were transferred from VF-13 and the sunny Med to join VF-111 at Miramar. Upon arrival, we were greeted by some monstrosity by the name of Tooter Teague, who by his own admission, was the "best in the West!" Within a week, Tootor arranged a 1 v. 1. His brief took only enough time for a haughty stare and thirty seconds to inform me that we would do broadcast control intercepts to start the engagements. As we were walking to the aircraft, he did take time to ask if I had any questions, to which I replied, "East Coast rules, or West Coast rules?" Certainly, Tooter had no idea what I meant and at the time neither did I. However, he gave that old Texas Aggie snort and granted me "East Coast rules!" 

Tooter headed out south of San Clemente while I orbited west of La Jolla. He turned inbound and started calling his Miramar TACAN every minute ('member how that went?) We engaged about 50 miles out, and it didn't take him more than 2,000 lbs to show me he could "walk the walk." When he broke away from my six to go orbit off the coast, it suddenly occurred to me what "East coast rule" to apply. In his turn away, I was blanketed by his wing. I maneuvered into a position about 200 feet directly below him. At the appropriate time, I started calling TACAN positions to make him think I was inbound. It worked like magic! Tooter made a perfect intercept on my broadcast position and began searching frantically, while I set quietly below him. After a few minutes, he finally called "No Joy," and I slipped up into a position about 200 feet behind him, with that age-old call "Bang, you're dead!" Until you, and he, just read this e-mail, he never knew how I did that! I bet St. Peter's ears are ringing right now from his "Brown Bear, you S...O... B..! God rest you, Tooter, you magnificent bastard!
Dick Schaffert

242.

Just a few thoughts on TR's treatise. I think we measured the hook to ramp on a 27C with the lens set at 4 deg at around 7 1/2 feet. I always remembered that with an 8 ft deck pitch you could have a comfortable centered ball but your ass end was in deep kimshi. When you plugged in auto throttle, in the birds it worked well in, you could see what it took to keep on speed. The throttle was constantly moving. Each speed correction took three throttle movements. One to get it accelerating, another to stop the acceleration, and another to hopefully hold what you had.

I was a mediocre carrier pilot but I had a couple of laws I followed. A centered ball was evil. No idea where it would go next. Ball between the top and center was good. Get it moving toward the center in close and always "go for it" crossing the ramp. The 2, 3, and 4 wires were gravy. Throttle never controlled the ball, the stick did. Granpa Pettibones never flew a Crusader at night where a wire, any wire, was about as close to ecstacy as one could get. Always buy your LSO drinks, especially stingers, at every occasion. Never beat an LSO at Ace Duece. That was gross stupidity. Never fly an airplane with a s/n of 13. Never sit in ready room chair #13. Always pee in the "lucky' crapper before manning up. If you are the spare on a dark night, plan on launching.
Bob Heisner

243.

Back in spring of '63 I took a brand new F8U-2NE out over the ocean east of JAX for a speed run. I got up to 1.86 mach (after doing all the computations). At this point, while still accelerating, the aircraft started to oscillate in yaw to both right and left accompanied by a dipping of the wing by a few degrees on the side of the yaw. In short the thing was moving along in this sort of squirrelly motion with the nose oscillating from side to side and the wings rolling back and forth slightly. What is called "Dutch roll". The yaw was about one full swing per second (swag). The cycle remained about the same but going faster increased the amplitude of the yaw and the wing rocking, both became much more pronounced. Skipper Zee Loftin would have had my ass if I had busted one of his brand new "two million dollar Cadillacs" so discretion got the better part of valor and I secured the burner and backed out. I thought at the time that the YAW STAB merely needed some minor tweaking and griped it as such.

Someone else mentioned that they thought no one had ever tried to shut off yaw and roll stabs while at high supersonic speed. Yaw stab popped out on me one time in a shallow dive, about 20 to 25 thou, somewhere in the area of .96 IMN and the nose started to whip violently from side to side, I mean it was really knocking my head back and forth against the canopy. Quick application of speed brakes solved the problem. I'd hate to think of shutting down the stab systems at high supersonic speed. Someone told me that John Conrad experienced something like this once and the aircraft wanted to "swap ends" on him. It "blew the tin in on the side of the airplane" as the story went. Another one of those moments of stark terror!
Swede Hedberg
"Never ask a Naval Aviator if he is a fighter pilot. If he is he will tell you, if not you will just embarrass him!

244.

 Hal Vincent reminisced about his 1955 F8 flight testing and VF-124 flying and wanted to hear from others from that era. I and many others came right out of flight training to VF-124 before they had any F8U's. Some of us got checked out in the FJ-3 and flew that for awhile until the FJs went to the reserves and the RAG got cranked up in early 1958. All the Navy pilots in the first VF-124 classes went to VF-24 (old VF-211) and VF-154. I was assigned to VF-24. Incidentally, we were told by the old guys in the squadron that VF-211/VF-24 was the first West Coast F8 squadron. 

The new and the old in VF-24 were the skipper, Ray Raehn, the exec Jim Stockdale, Gene Gardner, Ed Hickey, Tim Hubbard (deceased), Mal Brown, Harry Sarajian, Larry Renner, Rex Wood (deceased), Jim MacDonald, Dave Ingalls (deceased), Pat Crahan, Jim Caldwell, Hank Smith and Charlie Williams. There was a picture from the San Francisco paper that the guys in VF-124 put on their bulletin board shortly after we left the rag. It was a picture of Ed Hickey and I with s..t eating grins on our faces shaking hands. Someone had added the headline "Crusader College Grad Makes Good" over our heads. In my fourth hop in the new squadron Ed and I had a mid-air. It DOES ruin your whole day. On our Midway cruise, Hank Smith's keel broke apart resulting in a very bad cat shot as he hit the water about 60 Kts. Hank was the first pilot to live after a bad cat shot into the water in an F8. I think someone from VF-154 during that same period also survived one. I think we lost four airplanes in just a few months and then won the safety award for the year.  I have many fond memories of VF-24 and all the fine men who served in the squadron. What a time! And we got paid to do it!
Herb Hoffman.

245.

Enjoyed reading TR's note on F8 flat spot, flat paddles FCLPs, etc. But take exception to his final line ".... And we let helo drivers in Tailhook? "

I don't personally know TR or what his total experience is, but my guess is he may have been limited to flying fixed-wing only. In my case I was lucky enough to have a variety of experience. Made a Med Cruise on the Shang and have over 100 CV landings in the F8U-1E, including night. The Marine Corps "gave me an opportunity" to fly helos as well. I also had two tours at TPS. On the first I took both the fixed and the rotary wing courses. On the second I was TPS Ops Officer and continued to fly both fixed and rotary wing. The most challenging flying I have done was recip helo night external pick-ups in a totally black zone (overcast night, no horizon, out in the boonies) with the only light source being two wands held by the LSE about 100 feet in front of the aircraft. This was particularly tough when you knew the hook-up guy was standing on a vehicle to do the hook-up underneath the aircraft (vertical space about 4') and if you got a little low, you might smash him. Close behind that are two other situations of essentially equal flying difficulty. Night landings in a F8 on 27C (VFR or CCA pattern), overcast night, at sea, no horizon. Different situation, but equally challenging were night landings in an H-46 on a LST, running cross swell with plus/minus 10 to 15 degree rolls, again overcast night, at sea, and no other ships/lights visible, thus no horizon. Over the years I found that jet drivers (not limited to fighter pilots) who bad-mouthed helos had missed having at least one of two telling experiences. They had never been rescued by a helo and/or they had never tried to fly one. While at TPS I had the opportunity to give helo fam rides to lots of fixed wing pilots. Over time almost all of them learned to get their hands, feet and head to work together -- and it seemed to help control the lip-flapping a lot too.

Honestly TR, would like to get with you someday and buy you a martini, beer or whatever and swap some more stories.

Best Regards, Lloyd (Cess) Pool

246.

Keefer, Your rpt on the Handjob rampstrikes was quite interesting and will be aired tomorrow. I do have one question that I wondered if you might know. Did they (the LSOs or ships Mirror Maintainers) pole the mirror. That would have told them basically what the problem was (1 o 2 things) right away. I apologize, but being a long time LSO it is an interesting question. If youre not into Mirror/lens dynamics, it probably won't matter. Anyway, If you happen to know........... Thx, Jack Finley

247.

As a fresh "nugget" to VF-124 and on my second flight in the F-8 , I took what I had always used for the interval behind an aircraft on landing. I was behind an F4 hog on 27 left. Touchdown was on the numbers and everything seemed normal when the F4 popped his drag chute. The chute got bigger and bigger. I was closing too fast. I got on the brakes too early with too much lift and the wheels "stopped". I did not realize what had happened until the plane landing on 27 right told me "You know you're on fire, don't you Hoppy"? At that time I was losing directional control. The Aircraft took a slow left turn onto the grass. I popped the canopy and leaped out as fast as I could. The Fire trucks were there almost as I hit the ground. Their "Purple Magic" worked quickly and the fire was extinguished. At the regular Friday "Once again, skill and daring has triumphed over ignorance and superstition" celebration at the "O" club I was of course ragged about the incident but as luck would have it, one of the C.O.s of one of the other squadrons had dragged his tail cone and ground it down by over aerodynamically braking and so my incident took second place. My indecent required the usual write up and the plane was flying again in a few hours. I increased my interval especially behind F-4's. Just a note: Tooter Teague was one of my instructors during the RAG training at 124. I will always remember when he said: "We are the luckiest pilots. We get to fly the best plane in the world. Even Mr. Ling can't fly it, so fly it proudly".
Bill Bell

248.

Herewith my recollection of my F8 spin, pursuant to Hal Vincent's request for other like encounters:

It was an Ad Tac flight out of MCAS Beaufort in an F8E. I was a nugget, recently assigned to VMF(aw)-122 in early 1963 as part of the squadron stabilization for overseas deployment to Japan in Jan 1964. Good weather, cool temp. Flight leader was Capt Mike Phillips (one of the best airmen I have been privileged to fly with). Mike and I went nose-to-nose at Angels 40, and the hassle was on. Hopelessly outclassed, with less than 20 hrs in the bird, I pulled the nose around smartly, seeking some miracle to keep me in contention and avoid being totally humiliated. I was in a left turn pulling hard when - without warning - my aircraft snappped to the right and entered a violent falling leaf maneuver, everything in the cockpit -including myself- gyrating wildly. I applied the spin recovery technique (thank you, Hal) without blowing the droop, and I guess one had to be quick about neutralizing the controls, because the bird immediately went into another spin in the opposite direction. I would estimate I made three or four turns in the first spin. So... spin recovery technique was applied again, and this time I blew the leading edge droop. Maybe three more turns in the second spin, when -hallelujah- it came out and began flying again - just as advertised. Whole incident took a matter of seconds, during which I lost 20,000 ft. Limped home at reduced speed, hoping no one would notice. Normal landing, sneaked back to the flight line, and if you recall, the emergency droop extension is done with compressed air, so once you had blown the droop, there was no hiding... And that's how this pilot gained a lot of respect for our magnificent bird and learned to treat it carefully.
George Doubleday

249.

Herb Hoffman's description of who was in VF-24 was mostly correct-- however it wasn't Jim Caldwell it was John "the senator" Caldwell. And I THINK my speed on entering the water was closer to 110 kts as opposed to 60 kts. Whatever it was, it was enough to break the very thick windscreen when the jet hit the water ( the water coming in from the windscreen had so much force that it peeled my mask from my face and I had to use both hands to put it back in place to act as a barrier. The water was being forced down my throat from the pressure) I also had enough elevator control left to keep my nose attitude at about 20-30 degrees nose down ( I didn't want to hit flat because I thought that would break my back and I of course didn't to go straight down for obvious reasons.) Whatever-- it is an experience which will always be with me --- I especially like the statistic of being the first one to live through it and be around to give a bunch of shit to guys like "nickel" . I promised Larry Durbin before our trip to Franch to see the last flight that I would write the complete description of this "cold cat" I guess pretty soon I'll have to get me shit together and do that. For one thing, I was told at the time and since then that this was the first time anyone had gotten out alive. By putting this story "online" it will give others who have had similar experiences to match dates. By the way, I still have the raft from my seat pack in a prominent place in my garage-- the coating on the fabric is flaking off but otherwise it is OK -- at least it is still colored yellow--- which was the color of my spine for every cat shot after that one--- Every salute to the cat officer after that looked like I had seveer palsey, my hand was shaking so bad. But I still had those "Steely Eyes" and the shorts manufacturers had a steady customer for the rest of the cruise. 
Hank Smith 

250.

Reluctant though I am to mingle remarks with such august raconteurs as those on this net, a few comments are merited on the subject of glide slope/hook-to-ramp/power-required versus power-available curve. In order of last-to-first, concur with all the sages on the "insidious decel" which most of us experienced at one time or another on final, and all of us LSO's learned to recognize from the platform. Regarding ramp clearance, my recollection is that in order to get ten feet on 27c's we had to go to a 4 degree glide slope. I worried that they might reconsider the validity of hazardous duty pay during the shakedown of Enterprise by the lashed-up collection of squadrons (including Joe Moorer's VF62) under CAG 1 George Talley in 1961. 3.5 degree slope and all the non-Smokey air you could eat! For what it's worth, am attaching a view of CVAN 65 from the forward firing camera of an F8U-1P on final, as well as the same approaching Shang. [webmaster note: See both shots on the Photos page of our website]

Here is the only new thing I bring to the table. The old FDR did not get the same angled-deck mod that classmates Midway and Coral Sea enjoyed. Instead of about seven hundred feet of angle, Roosevelt had only 535, which exceeded the 528 on 27c's almost imperceptibly. Point being, we who flew with the Red Rippers and Fighting Photos off Rosie in the early-to-mid 60's could not tell much difference during occasional cross-decks with ShangriLa.

Off the subject, but when did T.R. Swartz become such a silver-tongued, articulate rascal? I am really impressed. When he waved us in VF174 all I ever heard was short, declarative sentences, liberally punctuated with the f... word and the s... word. During carquals, when I got my first OK-3 after several less than perfect traps, TR wrote "AFT" in the LSO log. Upon inquiring why such a pass included a remark, and what it meant, his answer was "About F...ing Time"!
Mo Hayes

251.

As a fresh "nugget" to VF-124 and on my second flight in the F-8 , I took what I had always used for the interval behind an aircraft on landing. I was behind an F4 hog on 27 left. Touchdown was on the numbers and everything seemed normal when the F4 popped his drag chute. The chute got bigger and bigger. I was closing too fast. I got on the brakes too early with too much lift and the wheels "stopped". I did not realize what had happened until the plane landing on 27 right told me "You know you're on fire, don't you Hoppy"? At that time I was losing directional control. The Aircraft took a slow left turn onto the grass. I popped the canopy and leaped out as fast as I could. The Fire trucks were there almost as I hit the ground. Their "Purple Magic" worked quickly and the fire was extinguished. At the regular Friday "Once again, skill and daring has triumphed over ignorance and superstition" celebration at the "O" club I was of course ragged about the incident but as luck would have it, one of the C.O.s of one of the other squadrons had dragged his tail cone and ground it down by over aerodynamically braking and so my incident took second place.

My indecent required the usual write up and the plane was flying again in a few hours. I increased my interval especially behind F-4's.

Just a note: Tooter Teague was one of my instructors during the RAG training at 124. I will always remember when he said: "We are the luckiest pilots. We get to fly the best plane in the world. Even Mr. Ling can't fly it, so fly it proudly".
Bill Bell

252.

Hi, I was looking at the photos on your web page and was reminded of a web site I had come across that had some photos of a crashed F8 that might have been from VF-53. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like there is a "53" on the tail section. They were personal photos taken by a Marine., not official military ones. Don't know if you are interested in looking at this sad group of photos, but if you are, the URL is http://www.wardogs.com/crash.html . Don't want to rekindle any bad memories but thought they were interesting photos... 
Tom Ingalls AQF3....VF-154 1964-67

253.

Rem Stone correctly mentioned fuel shutoff valve failures in F8E as Occasional. In addition to Cliff Judkins I believe that there was only one other spectacular and it also occurred during a Trans-Pac with KC-130s. In fact the "valves" functioned as designed. I participated in an investigation using an F8E fuel system and a KC-130 following these accidents. We could not replicate until we tried one more time after a week of fueling and defueling. That final run caught all fuselage fuel shutoff valves closing simultaneously. When this occurs the KC-130 refueling pressures just blew the hell out of the F8 system as those who did experience can attest. I believe that the only changes were made to the KC-130 to allow lower flow selection to fighter aircraft.
P.J. Smith

254.

re: recent helo remarks -- I remember watching a practice pickup from the LSO platform, about 1/4 mile off stbd. quarter. Helo would disappear between swells. It was night - really black. I was much nicer to them after that.
Fireball Johnson

255.

Here's a Whitey Varner story worth retelling.

Whitey was the senior LT in my TPS class, which was the first and only TPS class of all LTs. Don't know if that was a coincidence or deliberate on the part of the BuPers/NATC crowd.

In mid-1962 TPS received its first F-8, a worn F-8U-1E, in the stable to replace even more worn F-4Ds (they were former-Marine airplanes). Whitey had more time in F-8s than either classmates Jim Flatley or John Holtzclaw did, so he was picked as the first student to fly the F-8. In 1962 NATOPS had taken hold in the Fleet and had just stuck its nose under the Test Center's tent, sorta. Therefore, the TPS management decided to add some sort of discipline to this event, so they opted for a chase airplane…..a tired long-nose F-11F-1.

The great day came and out taxied Whitey and the chase manned by Bill Kelly. A big crowd of staff and students gathered on the ramp to witness the milestone event. Whitey and Bill lined up for a section takeoff. After brake release Whitey's airplane roared down the runway, as Bill's F-11 lumbered. Whitey sucked up the gear and lowered the wing and kept the F-8 down in the weeds as Bill still lumbered down the runway. The next thing we saw was a plan view of the F-8 as Whitey began an overhead maneuver that was completed as he joined smartly on Bill's F-11 as its gear door clunked shut. Many loud guffaws and cheers from the gathered throng.

Wouldn't expect such an undisciplined act could be repeated in today's Navy. Whitey's wings probably would have been melted down, along with his gold buttons, in front of NATC headquarters.
Pete Purvis

256.

George Doubleday talked about his ADTAC spin - I got my indoc to the 'gator bite a bit earlier.

In January or February of '68, I was on my FAM-2 with Snake Morris (I think). The WX was usual winter Miramar: solid layer from 1500-2000 over the water in W-291, and several layers in between. Good enough VFR at NKX for a launch. We were supposed to do the 1,000 mph thing, so we motored around and couldn't find a hole big enough to get on top. Between layers at around 4000-6000 ft, I did some FORM for a while, then Snake sez, "Why don't you drop back in trail, and practice some tail-chasing." Now, this was an FNG's dream! Put the pipper on the IP and keep him there, no matter what. We we holding about 400 knots and Snake started to progessively pull harder and harder on the pole. I "knew damn well" that he was trying force an overshoot, so that he could reverse our positions and apply a sufficient dose of humble. I don't think he knew that I was hell-bent on staying right where I was. I figured anything his plane could do, mine could do. What I didn't figure though, was that mine had to do a tad better to stay on the inside. I don't remember any buffet or pre-stall stuff, but I do remember that all of a sudden, the airplane was beating the hell out of me and I was in violent disorientation, feeling something like I was inside a giant cocktail shaker. I couldn't tell which way was up or down, it was gray in all directions and we (the gator and I) were totally out of control. I remember Snake transmitting' "Let go of the stick!" and I probably did, because just as sudden, the tumbling stopped and I found myself going straight down at about 4000 ft without enough airspeed to "fly," but accelerating. I entered the 2000' undercast about 20-degrees nose down, and held what I thought was the max AOA it would stand, and shortly thereafter I popped out again on top. I should have been scared shitless, but I wasn't. I was probably too dumb or too surprised to realize what happened. The next thing I remember was Snake transmitting, "Let's go home." Later, he told me the damn thing swapped ends.

Note: If it wasn't you, Snake, I apologize. But, you were there. 
Sam Marinshaw

257.

Cess Pool, having been qualified in both fighters and helos cited some good examples about the difficulties of flying each type. I too was "blessed" with an opportunity to fly helos after having served in VMF 232 flying FJs and VMF 333 flying F8s. As a formation instructor at Whiting Field where I had the opportunity to fly with some of the best from the Navy and Marines, it became apparent that the title of "fighter pilot" belongs to any pilot who possesses that special "fighter spirit". It doesn't really matter what kind of plane they fly. There were lots of great pilots but not all have the fighter spirit. Cess Pool was a good example of one who did. When you flew with him or had him on your wing; you could tell, he fit the mold of a fighter pilot. In Vietnam, the fighter spirit was demonstrated time and again by my helo brethren; they simply personified bravery, skill and determination to accomplish their mission no matter the odds. I was proud to have served with them.

Speed Vision TV channel recently had a special on the fighter war over NVN. Most of the footage dealt with carrier based F4s and the Air Force flying out of Thailand. F8s were mentioned in passing. One of the "facts" revealed was the kill ratio of 200 enemy and 80 US losses in the air battles. At the conclusion of the documentary I was overwhelmed with emotion, and gratitude. So, before I let the chance escape me, I want to thank each of you who served, and your loved ones, for your sacrifices to our great county. I salute you all!

Semper Fi,
G. Larry Brown 

258.

Re F-8 yaw at high speed. On my Vmax fam in the rag I had a "E" (F8U-2NE) that had only 4 flights in it's log book. I called out to the chase when I got to 1.9 IMN (Vmax by the book) and he said keep it going. I was going through 1.98 when he said he had lost me and to slow down (his "C" could not keep up). I am sure the bird would have easily made something above 2.0 IMN. The bird was as stable as a lead sled, no hint of yaw problems. Maybe it was due to being a new bird or maybe a really good yaw stab. However the F-8 could get twitchy. Took a RF-8A for a requested supersonic pass over the Brit carrier Victorious. The photo's Vmax was 700kts, slower even than the "A", due I guess to it's square fuselage and no ventral fins. It took about 735 kts to go supersonic on the deck in the South China Sea and I let her go to about 745 kts. As I approached the fantail (at flight deck level) the nose started yawing side to side and the motion build up rapidly. My first thought was yaw stab failure and I started to turn it off. My next thought was SLOW DOWN. Out of burner and a pitch up did that. I hate to think of what would happened had I secured the yaw stab. The Brits sent me a picture of the pass. All one could see of the plane was the nose and the top of the tail. All else was covered by vapor. They called it "The Real Flying Cloud". 
Jerry Kuechmann

259.

The following was something I saw some time ago on the History Channel on one of its shows about The Battle of Britain. It is in a church stained glass window memorializing the RAF pilots of that wondrous battle. I chased it down and it happens to come from Shakespeare's King Henry the V. I thought it appropriate just to pass on for the core group. We few We happy few We band of brothers For he that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother.
Jack Finley

260.

I have read with interest the stories of the F8 departures (we all have a couple of our own favorites) and would like to offer an observation. While I am not near high time in the bird and don't have the technical experience of some of the LTV or test pilot types, my background in instructing gave me an analytical approach to the big Cat when I did get to fly her. After beating around long enough, my point is the angle the stick was mounted in the cockpit at a slight forward and (asI recall) a slight left tilt so it was comfortable for the right hand. As sqdn. natops, when I checked out someone new in the airplane, I always made note of this angle. When the shaft of the stick was straight vertical in the cockpit, the grip was slightly forward and left. When looking at the top of the stick in the centered position, the shaft was angled slightly aft and to the right. My experience was that at high AOA with the stick pulled back into what felt like the center, neutral position, there was actually right aileron applied. I have witnessed several departures in which I felt this was a factor. Anyway it might be something to stir up some comments. 
Tiny Mize

261.

Without my old NATOPS to turn to , was i wrong in thinking that you could only get land droop when the wing was raised? You got cruise droop with the throttle switch or you could blow the droops pneumatically( spin recovery) 
Jack Allen

262.

Pete Purvis told a great Whitey Varner story (Whitey was my first lead into NVN in '67) .. reminded me of another similar story involving Bruce Morehouse and a Phantom.

Seems MacD was delivering the 1000th Phantom to some lucky squadron at Miramar. The Phantom arrived, with a big "1000" painted on the side, roaring down the runway in front of dozens of dignitaries who were there to celebrate the event.

The F-4 did an interceptor pullup into the vertical in front of the crowd. From out of nowhere, Bruce appeared in his F-8E, joined on the hapless F-4, and did canopy rolls around the Phantom in the vertical before disappearing into the sunset.
Cole Pierce nickel 105 

263.

Crusaders in Steel Pike
The VMF(AW) 451 Warlords were assigned many tasks which were firsts for the Crusader and for Marine Aviation. The pilots attached during the period 1963-1965 were arguably the most qualified F-8 pilots in the Naval Service. Our wives felt like widows because we existed out of our seabags and dop kits. We lived in zoom suits, puffing into rubber jock straps that slid down our sweaty faces while we pulled, rolled and strained for advantage. The loyal, dedicated troops kept safe F-8s available for pilots to overwhelm the odds and opponents. In contrast, VMF(AW)235 was next door and weaseled out of deployments by using the excuse of not being qualified. For a May 64 JCOC Weapons Air Show, 451 not only got 235's commitment, but were provided four of their F8Es to fly for the week. I was the lucky Lead for that choice Joint Chiefs demo. Virtually every month the Warlords were deployed as a squadron or in flight detachments on joint exercises, aboard carriers, Hot Pad alert in Gitmo or Key West, weapons training and Translants. Always preparing for people to pieces programs!  We had three Skippers during the two years: Tom Nichols, Fox Dempster, and Tasmanian Devil Davis. The F-8 Squadron excelled in work and play under all COs. 

Both 451 and 235 were ordered to Europe via Highboy VII Translant to support Operation Steel Pike--an Oct-Nov 1964 amphibious landing exercise to install and operate a SATS site at Almeria, Spain. 451 had 20 F8Ds ready, but 235 had many F8Es down. With only four days left, the MAG-31 Commander ordered 451 maint to get all 235 f-8s Op Ready. As Maint Officer, I flew two full card tests in actual IFR on 14 Oct. My violations were necessary for all 235 F-8s to make the 15 Oct translant.

451 departed on 18 Oct. 36 Crusaders made the 3700 NM trip. VMGR KC-130s refueled the F-8s 500 miles east of Bermuda on the 1900 NM leg. RONs were made at Bermuda, the Azores and Rota. Three days of Rota reveling followed. The Warlord F-8s flew into Almeria SATS on Oct 24. The 4000 ft runway with Morest had been constructed in just six days. The 235 lightweights remained at Rota. The tent camp was our introduction to Vietnam type duty. Instead of two-step vipers, we had Scorpions. Ted Berwald crawled into his fart sack and promptly jumped out shrieking after being painfully stung. The shots hurt too. 

Reach Smith was our Supply Officer. He loved the Skipper and his band of F-8 drivers. He was named Reach after accompanying the pilots out to a traveling carnival with a strip show. A one-armed dancer was writhing just out of reach of the hooting spectators who strained against the rope barrier as they tried to touch her most private part. The dancer teased them by saying no one could reach it. Suddenly, a long arm snaked out of the crowd and clasped the prize. The stripper jumped back shouting,  What a Reach! Thus Reach was born. One night Reach consumed too much Mateus, regurgitated on himself and his fart sack and passed out with his head resting on his right hand propped up by his elbow. Long candles hung from his nostrils. Joe Smart, Tiny Wanless and I picked up Reach's cot and toted him 50 yards to the senior officer abodes. We could hear the voice of Tazz emanating from the O'Club tent as we deposited the untidy Reach and his cot inside the skipper's tent. We hurried back to our 12 man tent. In about ten minutes, the night quiet was broken by shouts, curses and screams as Reach was tossed from Tazz's tent. Moments later, Reach stumbled into our tent dragging his cot and fart sack. We could hear sniffling and figured Reach was suffering distress after being assaulted by his hero. Reach eventually became an F-4 RIO and was shot down and rescued in North Vietnam. He died years later in a farm tractor mishap. 

The day of the actual Huelva landing, Tazz designated himself lead with me as section leader. Herb Jellander and Fly Cunningham were our wingmen. Dust and blowing sand were a problem at the SATS. On post-flights, tape was put over the static ports and pitot covers were tied on. It was dark as a cave when we manned our aircraft. From my cockpit I could dimly see the Tazz with one hand on the back of a plane captain's collar and the other hand gripping the pants seat as he tossed the E-3 toward the tent camp lights. Tazz could be heard roaring over the TUD-80 din. Doug Lawrence climbed up to tell me that Tazz asked the lineman if his F-8 was ready. The plane captain answered affirmative while the flashlight revealed the pitot cover flapping in the wind and the static port tape glowing. Not the way for a PC to kiss up to the Tasmanian Devil. During climbout Tazz lost his radio and passed me the lead. Then he was gone. We proceeded as a three plane and arrived overhead the Landing Zone. Nosing the F-8s over, we commenced the attack at H-Hour. A Crusader zipped by with wings rocking violently. It was the Tazz! We slipped into tail chase and Tazz led us through some 600kt low passes down the beach which sent Amtracs, troops and choppers scrambling and dodging for cover. Tazz was unique! He passed the lead back to me and flew off in burner. We returned to Almeria to find the Morest fouled. Malaga got an airshow. We landed and strolled across the runway to the restaurant/terminal. We had just begun teaching the Spanish tourists how to drink when a KC-130 landed and taxied to our Crusaders. Damn! We ran to our F8s, quickly ground refueled from the tanker, and then launched back to the SATS and the scorpions. The exercise was accident free while only one aircraft incident occurred.

A static fuel leak from an F-8 dump valve created concern. The Super-Safes kept bitching about the dripping wingtip. Finally, the Tazz got worried about a fire with all the brass watching us. The brain dead Tech Rep said F-8s had two wing fuel dumps and two pressure relief valves so just plug the dump valve hole at the wing fold while at Almeria. During refueling after the next flight, the center wing tank on 148657 erupted and spewed fuel throughout the pits. The Tech Rep went AWOL before the Tasmanian Devil could rearrange his body. Juan Lara put a temporary metal patch across the huge hole and I flew the damaged F-8 to Rota with Jim McRoberts as chase. Tazz wanted desperately to have the crippled F-8 flown home. There was talk of an Air Medal award if I flew the F-8 back on internal fuel using repeated plugins or staying plugged in for a slow trip west. The Air Wing leaders intervened and the F-8 went by ship. Tazz was not happy. The old tiger would be flying one less F8D back home. The Translant back to Beaufort was uneventful. The F-8s arrived home on 4 Nov. The Warlords were eager for some stateside nookie and primed for a Marine Ball. 451 proved that combat operations from SATS would succeed. 46 F-8 sorties were flown from the SATS site in support of the Huelva amphibious landing during the week of operations. Steel Pike was the shakedown for Chu Lai, Vietnam.
Mofak

264.

Good story. I was on Steel Pike also. Was an Air Defence Radar Controller with MACS-7. Flew over in a C-130 ( long, miserable trip). Came back on a ship. More miserable! Rough crossing. Stayed seasick the whole time. Note: One of the guys I got to know around the wardroom was then 1Lt Harvey Barnum, later MOH winner.
Bobb Clapp

265.

Some of the later F-8s I flew had a means of raising the droop after you had blown it down for spin recovery. Also in the early 60s there was a Navy pilot out of Cecil, I believe, who, as a last resort, raised the wing and recovered from a spin. The aircraft was undamaged. The NSC put out all kinds of strong words about this procedure not being approved. I made up my mind on the spot that I would do it rather than punch out. 

As AMO I have flown more test flights than you could believe. One of the items on a full test was to check the Autopilot. At 40K trim the aircraft up hands off at .78 IMN, engage autopilot, select altitude hold, select afterburner, CD up, and run out to 1.8 IMN. The aircraft was allowed to lose 500 feet and gain 1,000 feet. I never saw one that didn't pass. I had a yaw stab failure at a high mach number once and was thrown over in a corner and had a hell of a time crawling my way over to the throttle in order to deselect afterburner, get the speed brake out, and turn the yaw stab off. It was just like uncontrolled flight (swapping ends) or an upright spin wherein you are pushed over in the corner of the cockpit. 

Talking FNGs through their first high G barrel roll could produce some of the most unusual flying I have ever seen. What was interesting to me as an AMO was the fact that each time I had a wingman (or I) get in a spin and after recovery we would fly directly to the base, shoot a straight-in (no wave off- Tower) and pray the aircraft stayed together. It always amazed me that the damage, after observing or experiencing the wild gyrations, would be so minor, ruptured hydraulic lines or some such item. It's not surprising when one considers the beating they took on a trap. This is a well built aircraft that Grumman would have been proud to bear it's name. 

I was never in a flat spin. This is the one where NATOPS recommended you apply pro-spin controls in an effort to get the aircraft in an upright spin so normal? recovery could be attempted. That's got to be the ultimate discipline test. I am interested in hearing about the flat spin recoveries. I pushed Vmax on the deck once. It was fine as long as I was over the water but when we hit hot land the stick started moving all over the cockpit. I put my arm in front of the stick and prayed. Sure enough God got me out of it. I promised God I would never pull that again-and I didn't.

Marv Garrison (Tomcat) 

266.

While instructing in VF-174 we IPs believe that Dick "Pete" Peters unintentionally discovered that you could get the Land Droops extended without blowing them down. Pete came into the break and smartly pulled a whole bunch of them there "Gs." He unlocked the wing but didn't bring the unlock handle all the way back. He then moved the VIW handle all the way back which extended the Land Droops but would not allow the wing to come up.

He hit the tail pipe on landing. (Had to buy lotsa beers at the Club for that one.) We realized what happened when he taxied in and saw the position of the unlock handle. It didn't take long to figure that we now had a secret, unauthorized maneuvering advantage over anyone in an F8 that hadn't heard about this little trick. It seemed that everyone was using the Land Droops in every dog fight. I know I did. You had to be sure not to exceed the speed restriction or you might tear them off.

After a while the maintenance officer showed us some wing locking mechanisms and how we were beveling the edges of the 3 cogs on the locking shaft.  We all nodded our heads and promised we'd never do it again. Uh huh. Of course we wouldn't. Sure as hell we wouldn't. Yup. hehe.  I believe we only used them in an emergency...like having someone's ass that you really wanted to beat.

Hope Dick "Pete" Peters will correct me if I'm wrong. Pete?

Len "Ski" Kaine

267.

On most F8s the hydraulic sequencing valve for the wing/droop operation caused the wing to start down to the landing droop position slightly before the wing incidence handle got to the full up position. Most old hands made a note of this when starting up their airplanes and going through the wing sequence post-start checks. They made note of exactly where the incidence handle was by scribing a mark on the console. This was handy, they told me, if you wanted to put the landing droop out but keep the wing down for a slow speed fight. Bob Rice was one of them I think. I always thought it was too tricky and gave it up after a few abortive tries. It was also risky. Stu Harrison did it once while flying off the Shangri La and couldn't get the wing to come up after that...had to divert to Sigonella...very embarrassing! 
Battleaxe

268.

I read Tiny's comments regarding the offset grip with the stick in the centered position with keen interest. Although a VU Puke, I recall this point being well briefed by my VF-174 RAG instructor, Duke. He and others suggested that by using two hands to smartly pull the stick straight aft, it was more likely to remain laterally centered, thus greatly reducing the chances of causing an unwanted departure/spin. It worked.
Russ Longley

269.

. I have received an email from someone involved in the restoration of a Crusader aboard the USS Hornet museum ship; the airplane is done up in my old squadron's 1958 markings and he found our web site

(http://www.htcomp.net/kelso)

which deals with VF-154's F-8 years. The canopy rails are marked "Ltjg Crash Miotell". I believe Mr. Miotell is the man who recently made an interesting submission concerning his origination of the Black Knights patch. The Hornet gentleman would like to know whether the forward surface of the raised wing displayed "WBJS" (for World's Best Jet Squadron) during 1958. I suppose they're trying to do an authentic restoration, but I have no recollection of any such markings on our F-8s during my watch (1964-66). I'd like to ask if anyone has a picture or a memory of this detail of 1958.

While I'm sounding off, I'd also like to know if anybody except Admiral Gillcrist (who devoted a chapter of his book to the subject) ever actually used the AN/AAS-15 Infrared Detecting Set. I spent much of 1965 getting all the IR gear operating on VF-154's D-birds while at sea but as far as I can tell the system was never even selected while airborne. It would be gratifying to know that someone somewhere actually made some use of that gear, but I know that the system was unpopular among the pilots and required its nitrogen juice-up before each hop. Granted, it was crude by today's standards, but it was very advanced for its day (solid state in the days of vacuum tubes). It was great to read Mr. Gillcrist's account of using the IR in flight, but he's the only pilot I've ever known who did use the IR system. 
Randy Kelso, former AQF2 

270.

For the entire King Henry speech, and a lot of other really good stuff, try FLIGHT DECK at: www.3dgrafix.com/index_2.htm?B1CONTINUE
Nick

271.

Nice write-up. Fortunately I never got in a spin in the "B's" I was flying with 212. They had "D's" also, though I never got into them---don't remember why now. I Did see a bird swap ends coming off the banner once as he pulled really hard trying to save a bad run during high altitude gunnery. I was Tow. He left the pattern after recovering down around 10,000 ft. Went home---probably with a load in his flight suit. Don't remember if any damage to the bird. I can tell you MY eyes opened wide watching it!
Bob Clapp

272.

The quote from Act 4 Scene 3 is more apprpriate than you may think. It is St. Crispin's day. the morning of the Battle of Agincourt and King Harry and his English Brethen are hopelessly outnumbered by the French. Westmoreland, the King's cousin, says "O that we now had but one ten thousand of those men in England that do no work today!" (Some things never change.) But Harry chides him, saying that more men would just mean they would have to share their honor. He says he does not covet gold "but if it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive". He Tells them that if any man has no stomach for this fight let him depart-"we would not die in that man's company". He then makes a magnificent speech abouth those "that shall live this day and see old age" will tell their sons ot this day while showing their battle scars. He then talks about the band of brothers, the famous happy few. And finally, "gentlemen in England now abed "Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon St. Crispin's day".  It reminds me of some politicians I could name- and those that stayed and fought remind me of some of the Crusader drivers I had the privilage to fly with
Martin Johnson

273.

In VMF - 451 in the middle sixties, we had a USAF Exchange Officer pilot by the name of Major George Rule. George was the best of the few Air Force sticks I had been around. I imagine they sent their best, as exchange gigs were probably good for the career.

We got to know him well as the Ops Officer, and he had a great sense of humor. But concerning flying he always also had that sort of cool varnished exterior that the Air Force engenders and we heathens love to try to crack. You could tell he was nervous, for example, on early fams without an instructor pilot aboard, on AIRREF missions, live fire exercizes, etc.

The closest any Air Force pilot comes to breaking into an inferiority complex is when somebody mentions aircraft carriers. They always asked about it when we went on cross countries. So we took to telling them that we had taken off and landed the KC-130 aboard ship, (true) and we'd see them out there soon - and watch the jaws drop.

The time came for us to workup to take the lead all weather (yes, night flyin') fighter squadron's place on the Saratoga so the guys who usually did that work could go somewhere to check out in the Phantoms. George's varnish cracked, but did not break, as we started FMLPs. Being as good as he is, he got the hang of that area on the back side of the power curve after just a couple of hops, and was soon as "Joe Cool" as the rest of us. 

Came time for first flight to the Sara, however, and George seemed to me to be sweating under his varnish - like I did taking the T-28 aboard the Antietam for my first time. I realized how much tougher his first trap was going to be than ours. The Skipper of the Sara wanted to try to work for a 20 second landing interval, which involved getting out of the wire without help from the deck crew, and hauling ass over the foul line.

After the first "touch the boat somewhere" touch and goes, I got my first trap, which was a spacious pleasure compared with the Antietam, Lexington, and Shang. As I was coming down wind after the cat shot I heard George in a not-too-shaky voice call the ball. The usual minor LSO calls from Quaker Bill Rice ensued, and I saw George get the first trap of his life. Now as we all know, the throttle goes to full power as the wheels kiss the deck and the bird stalls, in case of a bolter. George was still in the wire when I rolled into the 90. A laconic call came from the CAG, "VM in the wire, you can shut down your afterburner now. We've got you, son."

After that embarrassment, George just became one of the gang, and I believe flew out of the SATS gear at Almeria, Spain, during Steel Pike I with the rest of 451. (Incidentally, I got an intercept on an echelon of 5 Spanish Air Force Messerschmit 109s on that trip - I though Rod Serling had shoved me into the twilight zone. But that's another story.)

Anyhow, I trusted George enough that, on what turned out to be our last strafing hop with live 20mm, I did an airleron roll from his right wing parade position over the top to the left wing. He never mentioned it.
John White "Snoopy"

274.

Concur on the leadership problems, as evidenced by how they handled (or mishandled) the Tailhook thing, especially the Bob Stumpf part. The point intended was, there is no lack of enthusiasm, aggressiveness, talent, knowledge or spirit, in the today fighter pilot. They are good and they know it. They also know that their leadership is not what they want or expect.  If it were, retention would not be the large problem that Navy now faces.

There is no doubt that we need leaders that are willing to say BS , when required. Witness the USMC, especially Krulak, who said on many occasions, "No, not in my Marine Corps". No to coed boot camps, et,al.

We certainly need that attitude in leadership from the top down. That would allow these young lions to take the bit in their teeth. There is no doubt in my mind that if they were allowed to "lie, cheat and steal", with some20 impunity, they would prevail in every exercise. They need more "Moose" Meyers, "Snake" Morris, Lew Chathams etc.type leadership. Unfortunately, the politicians, not the warriors, end up in DC, making the decisions that have too much influence on the outcomes. Unfortunately, with the size of todays Navy, there is a lot less room for free lancing at the lower levels of leadership.

Still a believer in "No points for second place".
John Allen "Frog"

275.

Wonder if anyone can fill in the blanks on what sounded like an interesting Crusader mishap. Date, must have been early to mid 1970, and about midday, West Coast time. Place, NAS Miramar, on precautionary landing approach toward the West (forget the actual runway heading).

I was about a year into my tour as F8 Class Desk in NavAir, trying to stomp on some of the snakes in the beleagured F-8J program, and was talking to someone in one of the squadrons getting same, when he said something like "Look, gotta go; I'll call you back later; some plane just flew in through the door on the other side of the hangar, and there's a lot of noise and commotion."

Seemed like I was up to my armpits in so many problems with the intro of the "J" that I can't recall the details. However, think it involved a Crusader that was returning from an operating area with low or no oil pressure making a precautionary approach. Somewhere on final, just about crossing the highway, the engine quit; pilot didn't think he could make the runway, but at least the plane would crash "inside the fence," so he ejected successfully. The Crusader had a bit more energy than it looked like, so it veered slightly to the right and went right through the open doors of the hangar. Had a couple of quick phone calls from several viewpoints out there, but can't recall now if I ever saw a mishap report on it.

Bet there are a few folks on the net who remember and can give us a better summary. 
Bill Brandel

276.

Gentlemen, in order to cut down on the traffic, I have selected Jack Musitano's fine recap of the sad F8 into the hgr at NKX event for publishing. It covers the incident pretty well. I have taken the liberty of not publishing the pilot's name for obvious reasons. As I suspected , there were a number of fine responses - and I expect more for the next couple of days. I have fwd'd the ones not published to Bill Brandel. Unless you have some more of a significant nature to add to what you read in Jack Musitano's msg, maybe we can close this one off. Thx for your consideration. Jack Finley

Re the rare crunch at Miramar:

I was instructing in the RAG at the time and I remember the accident vividly. I got to the hangar about an hour after it happened and it was quite a sight. The aircraft hit the east end of the eastern-most hangar, about mid-way up the doors and continued inside to impact several F-4's. A number (12?) of enlisted were killed. It would have been far worse if it weren't for the brave action by the Miramar crash crew that literally followed the aircraft into the hangar with their truck, spraying foam as they went, and put out the fire. The fire still did a lot of damage; several F-4s with strike damage. I remember seeing a hole in the hangar roof that was the result of one of the ejection seats cooking off.

As I heard the story, the a/c was on a routine training mission when it had an oil pressure failure. The pilot declared an emergency, dropped the RAT and shot a precautionary approach to 24R. Everything looked good until he crossed 395 and then the engine seized. He felt the stick froze up at that point, even though the RAT was out, and he punched. The a/c rocked a little after he ejected and then banked slightly to the right and flew into the hangar.

The accident board confirmed that the engine had seized prior to impact by inspecting the engine shaft bearings. I saw a photo of them and the rollers had melted and flowed through the race at impact. They found the cause of the oil pressure failure was a leak from an oil system component that they said should have been safety-wired.

For some reason, possibly because a number of enlisted had been killed, the accident became very political and an inquisition was launched. Their target became the squadron maintenance officer, none other than Rick "Cobra" Parker. Rick told me the story one day after he heard me expounding the virtues of doing maintenance "by the book". Rick had a different perspective on the competency of the powers that be to provide correct maintenance manuals. The accident board apparently had faulted him for not ensuring that the oil system component was safety-wired. The truth was, there was no requirement in the manuals to safety-wire this element. When the navy realized this, then sent an emergency change bulletin to all F-8 squadrons, instructing them to safety wire this element from now on. Rick showed me the bulletin and the accompanying photo of the affected component and the photo was reversed! I guess the navy dropped any action against Rick after that.

One immediate outcome of the accident was that an aircraft on the VF-124 flight line was set up with a hydraulic jenny and all the pilots given the opportunity to feel the difference between normal flight control and RAT-provided hydraulic pressure. As you would expect, there was quite a difference. You had to be extremely smooth with only the RAT providing pressure or you could bleed down quickly to a frozen stick.

That's about all I can remember about the accident. I'm pretty sure the squadron was 194.
Jack Musitano

277.

It was my pleasure to have been a confidant of John Boyd while working in Tom Christie's OSD (PA&E) office in 1974-77. Indeed, if not for he and Tom, ACM might still be an art instead of a science. Together, they gave us the concept of the egg (fighter pilot language for Energy Maneuverability), which all of us at one time or another have drawn on the blackboard during a flight brief.

At least twice a week, normally from about 7 to 10 in the evening, John would be at the blackboard in my office, enthusiastically claiming to anyone who would listen that the concept of aerial combat could also be applied to life. It was very basic, whether you wanted to kill an opponent, or to understand something or someone, you had to enter into their sphere of operation.

On Wednesday evenings, it was a treat to hear him and Tom go at it in the Fort Meyers "O" club, where Tom always gathered our group for a little "close-hold" (ha) conversation about the waste of Stealth, Big Mother, etc.

John Boyd was absolutely the Father of the F-16. It was he and Tom Christie, along with the OSD (PA&E) boss, Leonard Sullivan, who flew it right down the Air Force's throat when they wanted to spend all their bucks on the F-15. Of course, that's what got him cashiered by the Pentagon Air Force. It might have hurt, but it didn't slow John down one bit! His explored a different concept of the egg after that, explaining that one should get in the egg, do your business, and get out again before it absorbed you!

Because the coalition of Tom Christie, Pierre Sprey (IDA), Chuck Meyers (DDR&E) and John Boyd won the light-weight fighter battle, in both the USAF and USN, they were osterized by the Pentagon Generals and Admirals. However, they were admired by those with the bigger picture and closer to the pointy end of the sword. The kind of people you generally find in CincPac, TAC, SHAPE, etc.

Before I left SHAPE, and the company of Admiral Roger Box in 1983, John Boyd was already "on tour," throughout those commands, briefing his philosophy on how to fight and win in all phases of life, with his ever-present egg on the blackboard. There was a FIGHTER PILOT! There was a MAN! With deepest respect, Brown Bear

Ps: If you lost a hat in 1956-57 in Trader John's, it was likely to the Tom Christie gang. He and other teenage boys growing up in Pensacola got their revenge by stealing NAVCAD hats - I tried to convince him one of the collection he still had belonged to me, but I couldn't prove it. One hell of a nice guy, and an exceptional boss!

278.

I am a walking "senior moment" but I do remember the Tazz tossing his plane captain on that dark D-Day launch. When we staged out of Rota, Lou Pritchard was my wingman. About half way to Almeria he had a PC1 hydralic failure, and as briefed we diverted into Malaga which was a 10,000 concrete strip with no UHF radio. Lou landed first following which I turned down wind and also landed. Fortunately there was no traffic as I soon found that this was a civilian airport as well as a military field. We were approached by a Spanish follow me truck and proceeded to follow him over to the military side of Malaga where we parked and shut down. When we got out of the birds we were surrounded by 4 soldiers with machine guns and Lou became quite nervous and kept trying to push his 38 into his armpit. I tried to use a little spanish and they took us to their Duty Officer who spoke English pretty well. He then took us up to their BOQ where we met their CO and for the next 3 days we were treated like royalty while you guys were having a great time on the desert with your tents blowing down etc. Finally a chopper came in with parts to fix Lou's bird. We were able to put enough fuel in the planes by taking the top panel off the center of the wing and filling the wing cell using a plain old gas pump nozzle. It wasn't really JP4 but kerosene. Anyway we were able to take off at around dusk. An hour before this about 100 or so Spanish soldiers came down to check out these strange birds. The 2 officers that we befriended went up to the control tower and fired up their one UHF crystal so they could communicate with us. When I saw the audience we were drawing I briefed Lou for a section take off with an immediate burner light as they were grouped about 25 yards from the take off end of the runway. So we ran up to 100%, feet on the brakes and lit the burners. Our buddies in the tower went nuts yelling "fantistico" and according to the Gunny who got us flyable, every soldier hit the deck as they thought both planes had blown up. So after a short hop to the SATS and a night arrested landing on that tin field I had my ass thoroughly chewed out by the Tazz for living in the lap of luxury while he was having so much fun on the Spanish desert. Malaga was a base for the Spanish Air Force and they flew Heinkle Bombers in which Lou and I got checked out. They also were in Steel Pike. When we left I was given a beautiful pair of Spanish winter flying gloves which I still have. Other recollections were Ted Berwald getting into his sleeping bag with a scorpion and the scorpion won. I also remember flying over the beach when the boats were landing and will never forget that picture.
Doug Lawrence

279.

Versions of the accident have been basically correct up to some points regarding the investigation and subsequent speculation. Since I was the squadron XO and head of the accident board there needs to be some clarification for alcon. The cause of the engine failure was loss of oil pressure due to the oil pressure relief valve backing off the engine. We found the valve on the ground next to the engine. (no safety wire was attached) Maintenance records indicated the valve had been changed some 5-6 flights previous. As part of the investigation we set up an engine run at North Island--this proved to be very revealing. We found the valve without safety wire would unscrew itself at idle power--you could actually see it unwinding. The board concluded that had the valve been safety wired it would not have backed off. We inspected all other squadron airplanes and found them with properly safety wired valves. There was no doubt that those oil pressure relief valves were supposed to be safety wired. This was also confirmed by F8 maintenance experts.

There was no inquisition or anything political about this matter. The accident board was tasked to find out what happened and why. Yes, Rick was the maintenance officer and yes there was a Jag investigation (there always is) but to my knowledge there was no one out to "get" him. We found out what caused this terrible accident.

I know of absolutely no effort by any member of the accident board (all members of 194) to impugn anyone, particularly a loyal squadron member. 
Jim Ryan

280.

Got to admit it. MOFAK keeps me spellbound with his powers of recall and great sea stories. From the detail that he puts in each story, I can only conclude that he has been taking notes ever since he got out of Preflight and still has every scrap of paper still with him.

The email he forwarded from Doug Lawrence brought back some memories of my own.

While he and VMF(AW)-451 were enjoying their SATS field in Spain, VMF(AW)-235 was supporting Steel Pike out of Rota. During the exercise, one of 451's aircraft had to divert into Rota with mechanical problems (minor) and our squadron's (The Death Angels of 235) maintenance folks put it back into flying condition overnight. I could be mistaken, but I think that Mofak was flying the sick machine but I could be wrong.

As was the tradition, any time the maintenance folks laId hands on the other squadron's aircraft, the squadron patch of the host squadron would be emblazOned on the victim squadron's aircraft. It would usually be in a conspicuous spot (or spots) in order to provide maximum emberassment when the pilot returned home.

When the 451 pilot finally preflighted his crusader, it had the wing down and he went over it with a fine tooth comb. Couldn't find a blemish (that wasn't there when he dropped in to visit). He remarked in astonishment as he climbed the steps into the cockpit, "I can't believe you missed an opportunity like this to put your F------ patch on my bird."

He cranked up the J-57, did a few preliminaries, smiled again and shook his head at us as he closed the canopy to taxi.

Then he raised the wing. A bright red, white and yellow Death Angel patch (painted on the center of the wings leading) edge rose behind his head like the Phoenix rising out of the ashes. As he departed, you couldn't miss his puzzlement as we all smiled and waved him on his way.

Thanks for the memories.
Tom Elser

281.

A little late but I'm reminded about some uncontrolled flight characteristics of Vought A/C. The F4U was known as the "Ensign Eater".In a slow-speed departure e.g. the carrier pattern,it was known to snap to inverted nose-down .The stall wedge on the stbd wing helped some but not completely We all know about the F-8 but "Duke" Hernandez taught me in VF-174 to let go of everything as soon as it departed. That worked for me and I used that procedure numerous times (before the days of energy maneuverability) When I went to work for Vought on the A-7 in the test program as a safety puke we soon discovered that the A-7, in a high G departure, had the same characteristics as the F-8.  So we tried the same recovery technique and it worked!!! When I was training A-7 pilots I recommended that they write the departure procedure on the palms of their gloves, to wit: left glove LET on the right glove GO when you departed read the directions on your gloves----if you did that soon enough the a/c would recover itself. I also remember how difficult it was for us, the lyin' cheatin' thievin contractor, to convince the Rag Squadrons to institute departure training in the syllabus and then get approval from the powers that were to do it. One well-known former F-8 jock said that departure training would be like practicing bleeding until he tried it in the A-7 
Fang Liberato

282.

I was on the CVG-6 staff with Phil Craven., and XO of a sqd. when he was CVG-19 -- what a great guy. We were going to VN in a few days when my bride developed a cranial aneurism, a very life threatening situation. The medics told me I shouldn't go (deploy) since any undue stress could kill her were I to get hit, or what ever, before or after her surgery. I went to N. Island to tell Phil what they said, and that I couldn't go -- a truly dismal day. He said," that's the right decision and if you hadn't made it, I was going to make it for you".
Tom Domville

283.

We almost lost Hal Terryone black ass night transiting the straits of Gibraltar with about 50 kts over the deck. The ship was just making enough water over the rudder to maintain heading. The wind was howling like a banshee. Hal was just an outstanding stick. I loved to fly with both he and Phil because they were the best leads to fly wing on. In my minds eye I can still see Hal's aircraft coming out of the black night into the moonglow lights on the Shang. Just as he was coming through the burble his wings began to rock and he landed on the right main gear which exploded like a 5 inch round. The aircraft bounced back into the night and Hal stroked the burner just about the time the stick became concrete. ( pc-1&2 failure) He punched out just as the aircraft left the moonglow and he landed off the aft port quarter. Right into 20 foot seas and 50 kts of wind. I was standing on the LSO platform and had an incredible view of the whole scene. Hal quickly disappeared into the sea as the skipper put the ship into a hard turn. The aircraft, being trimmed nose up began what was one of the weirdest maneuvers I have ever seen. It continued to fly...for about 6 minutes or so. It would climb out in burner and hammerhead off into a dive. Then being trimmed nose up it would recover and climb again. It must have done this three or four times before the burner blew out from fuel exhaustion and it spun in about a mile or so off the aft starboard quarter. I have to tell you it was the strangest feeling knowing that no one was in the aircraft and that it was basically mindless. It was unnerving to some degree because it stayed over the ship just about the whole time it was doing this solo death dance.

In the meantime Hal was having serious problems getting rid of his chute and cutting the shrouds. It kept pulling him under and his bail out bottle was being quickly used up due to all the effort and adrenaline that he had working for him....and against him. The was I remember Hal telling it he was just about to pack it in..he couldn't fight much longer and he knew he was basically gone, when out of the night he felt a strong hand grab his shoulder and pull him to the surface. A Navy Seal had jumped into that horrendous ocean with a line and swam about 100 or so yards through 20 ft waves to reach Hal. They pulled him aboard the plane guard destroyer and he was saved.

I can tell you that every JO in VF-62 said a thank you prayer to The Lord that night. Phil and Hal where just a perfect leadership team. Every one in the Squadron admired and respected them both tremendously. I spoke to Hal a few months ago when I learned he is living near Tucson. I get to Phoenix every month and by God this month I am going to call him and make a date to see him. I have some things to say to him that need to be said now.
Brady James

284.

Here is the story of my "F8 Cold Cat" story. I have used this accident in many ways to different audiences to underline the importance of knowing the emergency procedures for which there is not time to refer to your NATOPS or procedural manuals. It was very useful when I taught Human Factors topics in the School of Aviation Safety at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey. Especially so because while I frequently went over my emergency ditching procedures and demonstrated that I knew them cold, I tried to abbreviate them as much as possible and left out the last part which was to inflate my Mae West which was a major mistake ( what Mark 3 C?). 

In conversations I had with my roomie ( Pat Crahan) after CAP ( Combat Air Patrol) missions he would mention how boring these flights were because all we did was fly in a race track pattern about 200 miles from the carrier. I thought they were exciting because the piloting requirements were so little I could practice my emergency procedures and these got me all juiced up. He said something to the effect that I must be some kind of masochist. While I was told at the time that I was the first guy to get out alive from an F8 cold cat shot and I have never had this part of the accident challenged, I hope someone will speak up if this is not true. 

The date was 28 July, 1959 aboard USS Midway, off the coast of California during a missle shoot exercise. During our brief in the ready room I was assigned an F8 with a Bureau Number of 145390 ( I don't remember the side number). Apparently I arrived five minutes early to man my airplane because the squadron mate who I was to replace on the "ready" ( Harry Sarajian) was pissed. All of us were trying to get as much flight time as possible and five minutes could be crucial when a launch signal was given. I had to climb up on the side of the ship and bang on the canopy to get Harry to get out. It was shortly after getting all strapped in that we did in fact receive the order to launch the F8's. After getting all hooked up to the Sponson Catapult ( the single cat on the angle deck) I gave the cat officer the customary salute to indicate that I was ready to go. He dropped his hand and away I went. However, about halfway down the track, I heard a loud explosion under the nose gear, similar to a 20 MM canon going off. Instantly my head came foreward and my body slammed into the shoulder straps from the change in acceleration. My speed was about 110 knots and I needed about 155 knots to fly. I immediatetly pulled back the power, got on the brakes and tried to nose gear steer it up the axial deck, (thinking I could get it stopped before going over the side). However, when the catapult shuttle went out from underneath the F8 it broke my hydraulic lines and thus made my nose gear stearing inoperable. In addition it was clear to me that my braking was ineffective on the steel deck ( plat photos show smoke coming from my tires). Therefore I jammed the throttle back on planning to get burner and become airborne with what deck I had left ( hope springs eternal doesn't it !!!!.) As I glanced at the engine RPM gauge, it became apparent that since it was just spinning past 70 percent and I needed 87 1/2 percent before the burner would lite, I was going to get wet!!!! After completing going over my emergency ditching procedures I still had about 25 feet of deck left before I would reach the edge. At that point I remember relaxing somewhat because there was nothing more I could do "until the bubbles stopped". ( Our water ditching training was adamamt about waiting until the plane stopped before trying to unbuckle and get out of the seat). 

As I left the edge of the deck I had enough elevator control to keep the nose about 30 degrees nose down. I didn't want to go straight in because the plane would go too deep but I also didn't want to hit flat because I was afraid it might break my back ( 163 foot drop?). I remember the ride from the edge of the deck to the water as being very pleasant and quiet as I watched guys along the cat walk looking at me as I passed them and the gun turrents on the side of the ship. When I hit the water all hell broke loose!!! The airplane literally exploded. The wings came off, the engine blew turbine blades up onto the flight deck and the front of the canopy broke. All I remember seeing at that point was the pure white water coming into the cockpit so forcefully that it pulled my oxygen mask to one side as it forced water down my throat even though my mask was securely fastened to my helmet with hardeman fittings. With both hands I reached up and pulled the mask back into place so it would act as a barrier to the tremendous water pressure. The water pressure was so great it was like a firehose being directed right into my face and the cockpit was filled immediately with water. During this time it also seemed like the airplane was being rolled around. I waited for what seemed like a long time for the bubbles to stop. Then it started to get dark and I was afraid I wouldn't be able to make it to the surface so I pulled the ejection seat face curtain 3 times. Nothing. I then realized I was going to have to get out of the airplane manually so I pulled the "T" handle near the sunscreen which sheared the rear canopy hinges and blew the canopy up about 6 inches from a 2600 psi bottle of nitrogen. I pulled my umbilical chords ( oxygen, g-suit, and radio chords) with my left hand, squeezed my ditching handle with my right hand, and chinned myself with both hands on the canopy bow to free myself from the airplane. 

I breaststroked my way up to the surface of the water and noticed that the carrier was now about a 1 1/2 miles away from me. At this point I was gasping for air and because I had so much weight mass ( parachute, seat pack with raft and other supplies, boots, torso harness, g-suite, helmet, oxygen regulator, mask, 38 pistol in holster, belt of 38 ammunition, flight suit, survival vest with 10 pounds of equipment, and my uninflated Mae West. Every wave that came by engulfed me because my mass was so great that I couldn't ride up with it. It is important to note that I never remembered to inflate my Mae West. Every time I went over my emergency ditching procedure I left out this part because I thought that any dip shit who was in the water would naturally think to inflate his Mae West !!! But I was in what is sometimes referred as cogitive overload. It was all I could do to keep my head above water after each wave went by !!!! Fortunately it wasn't necessary to attract the helo and in a short time they appeared over head. They lowered the horse collar down slowly and I had to hold my head under water to maintain a position correct for hoisting. Man was that ever a chore !!! Gasping for air whenever I could and then finally holding my head underwater while they took the slack out of the cable and hoisting me up. When I finally got inside the door of the helo the crewman couldn't believe all the gear I had on me and kept saying all the way back to the carrier " Jesus Christ you're a strong swimmer-- Jesus Christ you're a strong swimmer" !!!!!! finally, I said You'd swim too !!! After the traditional shot of brandy and return to the ready room still soaking wet I went over to Harry Sarajian and said " Harry, I'll never take your airplane again!!" Larry Renner, our schedules officer said I told him I heard the screws of the ship go by as I sank with the airplane. ( some studies have shown that aircraft sink at about 7 knots)

Two days later they shot me off again and this time it worked as advertised. But just to emphasize what a tremendous effect this cold cat shot had on me, every time after that when I saluted the cat officer my whole body was in shaking convulsions all the way down to my feet on the rudder pedals !!! The only way I could calm myself down after that was to tell myself that it was going to happen again on this shot and get ready. You did it before and your can do it again!!! Part of the reason for my concern was the fact that the problem was not fixed. It was a manufacturing defect in the swaged claw of the catapult pennant. After my accident they reduced the number of uses of the pennant from unlimited to 100. About 2 months later another F8 on the Hancock had the same thing happen and they reduced the number of uses to 50. Then about a month after that another F8 on the Hancock had a cold cat caused by a bad pennant and they reduced it to 10 !!!! So it might be understandable why my body turned into a shaking blob on every cat shot for the rest of our cruise- ( 8 1/2 months).

As a funny footnote-- About the middle of our Far East Cruise, the catapults themselves went down and no one could fly from the ship. Out X.O. who was a test pilot school grad and looking for ways to distinguish himself, took out his slide rule ( no calculators in those days) and said to the skipper during an All pilots Meeting ( APM) , that it was possible to deck launch the F8 without the catapults if we only had half a fuel load and 40 kts. of wind over the deck. Needless to say I was shitting bricks because I was sure they would launch one of the most experienced water landing Junior Officers  first. You can't begin to imagine my relief when our brash maintenance officer said in a loud voice," OK XO, here is the plan, we'll launch the Skipper first and when he goes into the water we'll launch you and when you go into the water, I'll be next in command and we'll shut this whole fuckin thing down".
Hank Smith 

285.

During the last couple weeks have visited some old F-8's. Here are some places to help satisfy the need for a Crusader Fix. All will eventually be posted on the website, with pix, when I get the Museums & Hulks page constructed.

Seattle area (something for you to do while everybody else goes to Pike St. Market, etc). Original XF-8U-1: Boeing's Museum of Flight Restoration Facility, Paine Field, Everrett, WA. You can walk around all over in here, no fee. Also Cutlass being restored to flying condition here.

"The Air Station", Arlington Apt., Arlington, WA. Sat in this one, has low-time engine, lacks engine mounts, instrument panel. Odd hours of operation, best bet is a Sat. 360-403-9352

L.A. area: "Planes of Fame" at Chino Apt., Chino, CA. F-8U-1 BuNo 145336, VMF-251 markings, "Capt. Guy Neeley" on canopy rail. Looks like they taxiied it in, shut down, put in seat pins, gear/wing locks, duct covers, & walked away. Climbed up on this one but not in. Fake AIM9-D [? the pointy nose one] mounted. 9-5 7 days/wk. 909-597-3722 [Swede, FJ-3 BuNo 135867 is there too, "Lt. Malcolm Barrett"]

"Air Force Flight Test Center Museum" Edwards AFB, CA. NASA DFBW & Supercritical Wing a/c on outside display at the NASA-Dryden Research Facility, along with other things. You must call ahead to the museum there to get permission to get on the base; will need registration & insurance documents for vehicle, & drivers license. Also an RF-8G, but not on public display. You could probably drive up to it if you don't mind getting shot; place crawls with security cars. 661-277-8050
Fireball

286.

I would like to comment on Hank Smith's cold cat story. Along with some other ex-cat officers like Chuck Dimon and Joe Muka, we sort of cringe at the term "cold cat". It was a holdover from the days of the hydraulic cat, where you actually could get a cold shot. With the advent of the steam cat it became nearly impossible to have a cold shot. Most of the incidents which occurred were from bridle or pendant separation where the cat worked just fine but the shuttle just didn't have an aircraft attached to it. Another possible mishap could come from not having the proper steam pressure set. That's purely human error and not the cat's fault. I had one once while launching an A-4 tanker who had taken a full internal fuel load instead of the normal light load. The pilot was told by the plane captain, but the pilot didn't tell anyone else. He was considerably heavier than his advertised weight and he even acknowledged the wrong weight from the cat checker. He was slow on launch and as he sank off the bow, I saw a huge splash, followed immediately by a slick winged A-4 flying out of the spray. He had shucked off everything, including an expensive buddy store, as he went off the deck. The only way you could get a technically cold shot was to have the sealing strip let go on the launch. In that case, the steam would escape from the cylinders along with a couple of hundred feet of steel strip which would do all kinds of bad things to an aircraft. I never heard of that happening on an aircraft launch, but I believe it may have happened once during a check out. Probably not a crucial item in the overall scheme of things, but humor us since we spent lots of time out in the cold rainy nights and hot sun. 
Chuck Klusmann (Bonny Dick Cat. Off. '60-'62)

287.

For those who didn't pick up on the date of my cat shot and thought the best procedure would have been to eject---- The ejection seat envelope at that time was 200 feet and 90 knots of airspeed-- It was only later that we had the Zero Zero seats. That would have certainly made the whole thing a lot easier. !!!! Also it was later that we developed oxygen masks which had underwater breathing capability-- during my time neither of these fine developments were in place. 
Hank Smith

288.

Charlie Carr forwarded Hank Smiths Cold Cat Shot story that had wound through several "forwards". It was interesting to read, as I knew so many of the people mentioned. He mentioned that Hancock had dribbled a couple of F8's off the front end about the same time. One of them, that survived, was Sandy Button, in VF-154. I joined 154 when they returned from the Hancock Cruise and made the next two cruises with 154 on Coral Sea. Sandy and Stretch Tucker often flew my wing, and took turns on wing or slot when we flew the back-to-back formation. Copies of that wound up in a lot of Chance Vaught ads, and on the back cover of several aviation magazines. As usual, I was the one wrong-side up. The aspect of not inflating the life vest, is a lesson we seemed to have to relearn. In the 1955-1958 time period we had Advanced Training Units at Memphis where I instructed. 105 with T-28's for instrument training, and 205 with T-33's for jet transition. We had a situation where a student punched out near the field, but was killed on impact, still in the seat, without deploying his chute. We had several instances when only a portion of the ejection sequence was done, with fatal results. When we reviewed our training procedures we realized that we were only teaching part of the ejection sequence with the PRE-POS-OX-PULL. Preposition the body, Activate the bailout oxygen bottle, and pull the ejection handle. We would never review releasing the straps, rolling out of the seat, and pulling the rip cord.

A personal "sea story" with more favorable results was a time I picked up an F8 in El Paso to ferry it to Atlanta. In doing a lot of high altitude work when we had pressure suits when we first had "all weather" F8's - like an autopilot - we never had the walk around cooling units. At Miramar that was not comfortable. I hated it so much I just plain stopped using it, but realized that on some of the zoom work I'd be in a bad region without cabin pressurization. I constantly reviewed that I would pull the throttle to idle, run full nose down trim, and pop he speed brakes, figuring that even if I did pass out I had several minutes before I hit some solid - like ground. The F8 had been at El Paso for several weeks, and the repairs had been made, but it hadn't flown for awhile. I did a quick take-off, fly around a bit, and then land before heading for Atlanta. I launched and went to 44,000' to get the winds etc. that I needed to go non-stop. As I leveled off, I checked the cockpit pressure, noted 8,000', and as I reached for the dump valve the forward port windscreen blew. That was extreme explosive decompression, and I remember the cockpit filling with condensation. My next conscious recollection is noting that I was descending through 36,000', at idle, trimmed full nose down, and speed brakes deployed. I have no recollection of doing those things. I was fortunate that nothing worse than a cold, and some rather severe windburn on my neck resulted. About a week later I did pick the plane up for delivery, but stayed at low altitude, and went to Dallas for some Navy servicing, before going on to Atlanta.

So, aside from that Mrs. Lincoln ---
Roger Sheets

289.

Ron: It's good to hear from you! Your asked about the ice cream. Actually, the helicopter that came over to get me the next morning brought 5 gals. of ice cream, (the kind I don't know). The skipper of STEINAKER, who was quite a character and wonderful guy, told the carrier "hey, this pilot is an XO, so we rate one more container of ice cream before we'll turn him loose!" (I was also impressed and grateful to their young 1st Division Officer, who voluntarily put on a wet suit and swam with a line out to me, after the ship had so much trouble maneuvering to get close to me. Later, I wrote a grateful, highly commendatory letter to his parents. The ship had almost smacked me with that world's largest sonar dome under the bow when the bow fell away towards me in the storm. I was sculling for my life.) Anyway, getting back to the next morning, the helo went back without me and the "hostage exchange" was completed an hour later, after the second container arrived. The seas were still high and so trying to snatch that horse collar lowered by the helo to that wildly pitching fantail was as exciting as the ejection. Sure beat the amusement park rides. Best regards, 
Hal  Terry

290.

Response to Chuck Klusmann

"The only way you could get a technically cold shot was to have the sealing strip let go on the launch......"

We had one on Kitty Hawk in 1980. In the layest of terms (I was never a cat officer) when the catapult ram hits the water brake it trips a relief valve that vents excess steam pressure so the shuttle can be retracted. This particular day the left bow cat relief valve was inop. We needed the cat and the book says the valve can be manually released. A sailor is posted at the relief valve with a tool. When the cat fires and slams against the water brake the guy was supposed to wait 10 or so seconds and manually vent the steam. This day there was an inexperienced young man at the valve (weren't we all..) when the ship was using BOTH bow cats to launch.

The kid was at his post when he heard the big slam. Unfortunately he had heard the right cat ram impact while a VA-52 A-6E was put into tension on the left side (the relief valves on the fwd cats shared a vent line so the valves were located closer to one another than you might expect). He counted his 10 potatoes and vented the steam a moment after the left cat was fired. The A-6 got about 100 KIAS and went in. Both crewmem ejected and got good canopies, and gave thumbs up as the ship passed. Sadly we didn't recover them, the board concluded they got entangled in their chutes as the ship passed them.

They changed the procedure to require sound powered phone communication and other safeguards.

Regards,
Charles Nangle "Beto"

291.

In response to my neighbor Klusemann------He may have missed the story of the Hornet Driver who had the sealing strip come unglued and get injested.  Helluva story! For Hank. I was required to defend several lawsuits because of the Zero/Zero misunderstanding. We all know what that REALLY means.  Try telling to a Plaintiff Attorney that we didn't include the guy who punches at 100 ft in A VERTICAL DIVE or INVERTED at 50 ft. not to mention several other scenarios that we never tested for such as a rapid decel as you drive into the mud off the side of the runway. We won a few and we lost a few before I got that term removed from our manuals and other literature while I was at Vought. 
Fang Liberato

292.

On one my cruises on Hanna Maru, either 64-65 of 65-66, they night launched a fully loaded VA 212, A4E tanker (the best kind) off one of the cats at a speed too slow to fly. The guy was an experienced driver, but he rode it in and did not survive. Fuzzy on the details, but think they blamed it on the launch valve not opening fast enough. I do remember not using that Cat again until we went to Sasaebo. They did some serious work on the Cat and fired many dead loads into the bay. Maybe Dave Winiker (one of our Cat Officers) could shed some light. Related item; I also remember when we had the serious bomb shortage that we really did not have (pentagonese), the ordies scratched around in the magazines and found a bunch of Bull Pups. They had little ones and big ones. A's and B's? Tex Birdwell was the Skipper of 216 and decided his A4C's could launch with one of each if they carried one drop on a wing station. There were some serious end speed considerations however. I was sitting in my trusty F8U-2 in the landing area when Tex taxied to the Cat for the first try to launch this load. I remember the "Boss" telling Tex, " you will only have a couple of knots of excess on this shot". Tex's reply was something like "I'll try it and if I make it, launch the rest of my guys." If you knew Tex, this should not surprise you as he had no apparent fear of death. Well he disappeared off the end and went down into ground effect and stayed there for several miles while he milked the flaps up and then he instructed the Boss to launch the rest of his flight with the same load. As a first tour JO, I was suitably impressed. Oh by the way, 216 was a hell of a squadron with Tex and department heads, Lew Chatham, Dave Glunt, and Fred Baldwin and some super JOs. They compensated for their old A4C's with abilty and guts. 
John Allen VF-24

293.

----LT Denny Cook was the gent's name. Second tour LT who joined the squadron mid-cruise. I was #2 behind him on the cat the night that happened. Problem as I recall was that a 10 cent piece of gasket material had jammed a steam valve.

-----I vaguely remember that we got extended on line due to Ranger's having a cat down. So they stayed in Yoko with only three good cats and we flew an entire at sea period with _one_ cat and never missed a sortie.

------Re: Birdwell and low excess airspeed launches: The A-4 was not supposed to launch with less than ten knots excess due to the chance of one of the aerodynamic slats getting stuck back on the cat shot. We routinely launched with less than five knots excess in the South China Sea. Lots of buffet (and sphincter tightening) off the cat!

-----Our JOs routinely flew night tankers while VA-212 limited night tankers to second tour A-4 pilots only. Birdwell believed that if you wore wings you should be able to hack anything.

.................................................As a first tour JO, I was suitably impressed. Oh by the way, 216 was a hell of a squadron with Tex and department heads, Lew Chatham, Dave Glunt, and Fred Baldwin and some super JOs. They compensated for their old A4C's with abilty and guts. John Allen VF-24

-----All great guys. Lew was my division leader and led the flight the day I got bagged. Baldy was Lew's roomie and our safety officer (worthless job in Birdwell's squadron: "Safety Officer is the most worthless job in the squadron. All the SOB does is try to hamper operational readiness." - Birdwell, AOM Spring '66). Cleaver Glunt, Maintenance Officer was my boss - I had Aircraft Division.

Thanx for the memories, John!
Paul Galanti

294.

With the recent rash of messages concerning cold cat shots, I could not help but remember my tenure aboard USS Bon Home Richard as aircraft handling officer. Lts Chuck Klusmann and Joe Muka were my catapult and assistant catapult officers. It was the first time the Demons were to be aboard our ship for carquals and we decided to visit the squadron ashore not only to brief the pilots on our procedures but to learn something about the aircraft as well. I can't remember the exact figure Chuck used, but he started the briefing by saying, "We've had 89,000 successful catapult shots and we don't want any of you pilots spoiling our record."

It was a great, successful carqual operation.
Claude Navarrette, Jr. 

295.

A well written account of his own "cold' cat, some engineering expertise and some rememberances of other sad incidents off the "point end" from Bill Brandel.

Some thoughts on Cat Shot Mishaps.

The several accounts of "Cold Cat Shots" and other variations on the launch event on the circuit recently, caused me to re-think a personal "defining moment" from a long time ago. As mentioned in some of the stories, seems like there have been Cold Shots, Cool Shots, Non-Shots, and even Too-Hot (attempted) Shots. There may be other categories. Didn't know it in those first critical seconds, but my ride was more like a Non-Shot (or unsuccessful deck launch).

Time was about 2130 local Feb 28, 1962, about 75 miles SE of MCAS Cherry Point, on board USS Independence CVA-62, in a sizeable CarQual detachment from Crusader RAG squadron VF-174, along with a bunch of A-4s. Had been underway since the 21st, running up and down the coast dodging winter Atlantic storms looking for weather suitable for quals/diverts. I had accumulated ten day and three night traps in four separate attempts, with interruptions for heavy weather, wire(s) out, and running out of sea room. The hop would have completed my qual; just three more shots; three more traps; top off fuel; work in two more CCAs to a waveoff, and on to the beach.

Wx OK; low scattered to broken; showers; sea moderate; water temp 72deg (in the Gulf Stream); poopy suit NR. Manned F-8D S/N 213; qual load 4,500 lb; starboard Cat; ease into the holdback; on signal, to MRT; tension signal; slight "thunk;" -- Gasp -- A/C MOVING; Cat Officer holding "brakes" signal; stand on brakes to no effect (not surprising in retrospect, wet deck and MRT); didn't feel the shuttle go under the nose wheel (must still be hooked up and getting pulled -- WRONG -- one of the several scenarios discussed in "what-if" sessions during idle hours in the RAG). At about the two second mark, realized that we were not going to stop, and definitely not going to fly. Similarly, not even close to being in the seat envelope, and not wanting to end up in the wake tangled in a streaming chute, was committed to riding it in. In one unplanned "ad lib" move, lit the burner, figuring that every extra pound of thrust might hurl us a bit further from the ship's hull. Last planned action was to yank the canopy jettison handle just as we went off the bow; it parted cleanly.

Short pause during the fall, followed by that bright flash ("seeing stars" like a good jab between the eyes when you're boxing). Then the realization that the cockpit is full of water; I am alive, because I can seen the canopy outline lighted by the light green phosphorescence of the warm Gulf Stream water; and (bad news) my oxygen mask, with its newly modified user friendly fittings, had come off. (Had had several sessions in the dunker at NAS Jax practicing prolonged breathing with the mask and dark visor for underwater egress.) Good at holding my breath, so to release and get out. Of course, in this situation, we don't think quite as clearly and methodically as the ditching procedures outlined in the book.

Pull the ditching handle (release) and it works as advertised; I'm cut free (almost). Out of the cockpit, but with the seatpan-to-console lines still attached. Working the problem; running out of breath; and wonderful surprise. Nose pops up out of the water for a few seconds, and I get a welcome big gulp of air before it starts down again. (Figure that with a light load, the wing stayed attached, and when it dug in, did one "scoop" and pitched back to the surface. No way of knowing what happened when the fire went out -- and in A/B at that.) That extra breath was just what was needed. Got my feet against some part of the cockpit, and one heave-ho pulled the umbilical free. Things were looking up.

First surprise was noting that I came to the surface well clear of the aft port side of the ship. Get to that later. Flotation ring (MC-3?) worked fine. Loaded a few tracers, and fired two rounds at the carrier as it moved away in a port turn (missed the bridge). Water a comfortable 72. Floating easily in about eight foot swells. Sighted plane guard DD Manley; fired one tracer in her direction. Held off the night flares until she came closer. Second flare at about 100 yards, and she came dead in the water with me about twenty feet abeam the bridge. Started up the rope ladder on a big swell with all the wet gear still attached (dumb). Discarded same; tried again; made it up second time.

The "Doc" was a great Chief Corpsman. Gave me the customary shot of brandy with a few aspirin; took a few stitches in my chin (which had ricocheted off the top of the stick) and tacked a couple butterfly band-aids on the split on the forehead which had just hit the APQ-83 scope bezel (broke the clear visor first). Weather was too rough to transfer back to the carrier next day and night. Got checked out in riding a DD in rough weather with a few newly acquired aches and pains. Second day, left Manley's fantail via helo sling back to Independence. Wrote the customary "pilot's version" statement; scrounged up some add'l flight gear; got two day refresh traps, and launched again that second night hoping to finish up. After three cat shots, two traps, and two bolters (two wires missing) got sent in to Pax for the night. Back out next afternoon to finish up that night. That last hop was a story in itself, beyond the scope of this tale.

A few postscript notes. Recall that the Crusader's holdback and tension-bar were different than most. Like many detail features that pared space and weight, the airframe fixture was compact (compared to A-4, F-3, A-3) and the business end of the T-bar was shaped like a section of a cone. Whatever the early experience, the F-8 T-bar was normally held firmly in its socket by a separate small fitting called a retainer. No real problem in regular cyclic ops, but a nuisance during quals running through the deck. Don't know the history up to Feb 62, but t-bar retainers were not being used during our quals. Hookup -- be extra careful; check with a light, etc. -- tough assignment at night, under the fuselage, between the ventrals. From the gouges in the end of the t-bar in this launch attempt, it wasn't seated properly, and just pulled out prematurely. Never heard if this incident was the first or only time this occurred, but it did lead to an engineering change and incorporation of the "integral T-bar retainer" which stayed with the aircraft. Over the next seven or so years I flew the Crusader, never heard of another pre-release just like this one.

Next item -- how and why the carrier didn't run over the aircraft. There was a guardian angel on the bridge. Starboard Cat; a/c loose; plane (headed for) in the water; OOD call -- "All Stop; Right Full Rudder." However, C.O., Capt (later VADM) Pete Aurand, noting that when I was turned loose, the initial braking attempt must have caused a swerve to port, and the a/c dumped over the bow just left of centerline and aimed to port. He leapt off the chair; shouted "Belay that; All Stop; Left Full Rudder" which would throw the main body of the hull away from where the a/c would hit the water. Doubt that any part of the hull ever touched the aircraft. It must have scooped down and out to port; was probably under water the first time for less than 15 or 20 seconds, and when it popped back to the surface, was well clear. Know I was too darn busy to remember if I ever heard any chunking of the screws or the like.

Last element of survival -- luck of the draw. Considering my lack of experience: about ten day and three night cat shots after an almost four year hiatus since a VA squadron on Intrepid, all the "pre-thinking and what-if logic" couldn't detect and interpret what was happening in those first couple seconds. Thought for the next few seconds that my career in fighters was going to be over before it got started. What's the old saying -- just wasn't my time yet.

There are a few other cat mishaps that I will always remember -- not all Crusaders. But in Crusader lore, Jumpin' Jim Foster's genuine "Cold Shot" on the flyoff from the Shang on return from the '65 Med cruise is a classic. Slow opening launch valve dragged him slowly and deliberately down the track. Brakes and engine shutdown had no effect. Bridle still attached, plane was just tossed off the bow at about 30 knots. Went into the water with the canopy still on; ejected under water through the canopy; broke the surface by ten or twenty feet; separated from the seat; inflated MC-3; picked up by helo; back on deck.

Young tiger who went through the RAG with me in '62 (will skip his name) went to VF-33 and the Enterprise. Day launch; waist cat; early on, the new C-13 (think it was) cat had some sharp impulses during the start of the stroke that tore out the keel, but got enough of a push to dump him off the angle at much less than flying speed. Hit fairly flat; floated for a moment; no apparent attempt to egress; probably knocked out by the impact; went down with the plane.

Early 1962; FDR day launch; VA-12 A-4; " Cool Shot," just not quite enough excess air speed to accelerate. Staggered ahead for half a mile before settling in. Didn't drop tanks; looked like the "little engine that could" only that one couldn't.

FDR Med cruise of 62-62. Watched from Pri Fly as a VF-14 Demon on the port cat lit the burner; broke the holdback (found out later it was an A-4 tension bar); off the power; then back on, and re-lit the burner; then cut power and dribbled over the bow. No chance.

Later that same day; first night launch; VF-14 XO in a Demon on the starboard cat, lit the burner; broke the holdback (also an A-4 tension bar, discovered this time after the event). Having thought about going over the bow, XO cut the power; braked hard and tried to arc across the bow for more room to stop. Ended up hanging part way off the port side with the nose wheel out in space; the centerline tank ruptured and hung on the deck edge; mains still on deck. ( I had a ringside seat for that one; was turned up and tensioned for launch on the port cat when this big old Demon cut across and stopped in front of me spewing JP all over my good Crusader.)

Having made the mistake of going to Naval Justice School one time, got tagged to do a one officer investigation of a very slow shot on the Shang -- can't recall what happened to the aircraft. Took a while, but the cause of the slow opening launch valve was an errant headless set screw in the hydraulics that had been trapped in the system for an undetermined time, but had finally been "flipped up by turbulence" to partially block a metering orifice in the launch valve hydraulics. Took a while for engineering to find it, and could never determine when and where it came from.

Expect many of the Crusader "long timers" recall other weird "bad cat" stories. I've read AARs of others, but thought these represented a few of the ways a good cat shot could go sour. Fortunately, things have improved a lot at both ends of the boat.
Bill Brandel

296.

I read Bill Brandel's very fine account of his successful taxi off the bow night water landing with a good deal of interest. I still remember the rendering of the occurrence on the front of "Approach" when it was reported in the magazine. Bill mentioned a VF-33 catapult failure that did not end so fortunately. It happened during the Cuban crisis while we remained on station for something like 45 days at sea in Enterprise after the dust cleared. Steve Sutro was the pilot. He was a very energetic, talented " nugget"whose eagerness to learn was fun to see. There had been several "hard" shots reported on the #4 waist cat. The cat maintenance crew inspected it , but could find no discrepancy. They shot "no loads", etc.,etc. Unfortunately, the hard shots had been reported by some of the less experienced aviators who had never experienced the slam of the old hydraulic cats( H-8's/H-4's, and it was thought to be an anomaly. Particularly since no other squadrons had reported similar happenings. The F-8's were fired from the waist and the F-4's went off the bow - most of the time. I was shot off one day so violently that my feet were slammed back from the rudder pedals and knees rose as did the raft and seat cushion from the seat pan. Needless to say there were a few seconds of stark terror until I could pick all the marbles up off the cockpit floor and call the tower to tell them to down the cat. Again, it was inspected with no discrepancy found. I don't recall how many days passed before Steve had his tragic launch. His shot was so violent that it pulled the cat pin out of the keel of the a/c. The pin was still in its' retaining connections with pieces of the keel attached - some force to do that. On the stroke, the shuttle pulled the pin out and shot forward into the water brakes passing under the nose wheel. Surprisingly , the nose gear did not shear. He was at full MRP and his head was off the head- rest following the initial jolt as the a/c proceeded up the cat track and over the side. He was looking forward for the entire roll, and there was no attempted ejection. A few hours after the accident, the pieces of the keel, and cat pin were on the deck in the front of the ready room when the Captain arrived to look at what was left - cat pin, pieces of the keel and some other small bits of metal. He surmised that the cat would be back up by the end of the day (a real pilots' pilot!!)- there were some expressions of incredulity at that point. The CarDiv (Adm. Chick Hayward) vetoed that and said the cat would be down until something was found wrong- God bless him. AirLant sent an expert who found that a valve was sticking and allowing a huge blast of pressure to proceed to the ram/ shuttle when the cat was fired. It may have been a double failure - I don't remember - since there should have been a by-pass or some safety redundancy. Maybe one of you former cat officers will know. Anyway, there was an immediate safety inspection of the other cats ;and they were okay. There were no more "hard shots" , the damn cruise finally ended, and we made it home by Christmas - the first in 3 years for CAG-6.
John Watkins

297.

John -- Thanks for the comeback on the "Cat Tales." Re Steve Sutro's tragic  loss -- didn't mention his name because of prior undesirable experience associated with the identification of a mishap victim.

Some additional filler -- Steve was in the RAG same time, and on that same qual cruise. He had yet to have his first night go when my hairy show occurred. Thought at the time what an extra "lump in the throat" watching that happen must have provided for the few first-timers. Knew Steve well enough to rate him as a first class "Nugget," and when I heard of his accident, and worse yet, saw the film of the plane in the water with him motionless in the cockpit, it made me sick.

Another young gent going through 174 with us at the time was Norm Gandia; good friend of Steves; think they might have even roomed together somewhere. Think Gandia went to Oceana also, but to VF-84. Met him a few years ago at one of the Last Crusader Reunions (which I'm now calling Crusader Survivors Reunions). Norm gave me some background on Steve and his family, and how hard his loss had hit them.

Do appreciate your writing, John. Can't recall if we have ever met. Seems I knew and flew with about a hundred Crusader guys over about nine years, and manage to misplace and mis-remember who, when, and where. Interesting problem, considering I never got in on anything important in all that time.

Close out note: Good things about VU squadrons. I came right our of VF and Jet transition just about the time Korea shut down. Went to Gtmo for a two year tour -- they wanted to see if I was really serious about staying in the Navy and flying. In retrospect, it wasn't so bad. Bagged 1200 hours in two years in the likes of F6F, F7F, F8F, F9F-6, TBM, JD, and even a few hours splashing in a PBM-5. That got me a tour in VA-66, a "Baby Bomber" squadron in Couger 8s and A-4s. Took a tour in PG school to break the string and get (belatedly) into VF and the Crusader beast.
Check Six, Bill Brandel

298.

TT-1`s(Pinto Pioneers) & received our wings together on the same day. Steve was like a brother to me & my son is his namesake. Needless to say, his departure brought tears to my eyes. Your detail on the cat malfunction is the best I had heard. Thanks & a definite pat on the back for the Admiral. If he had only done it after your shot-------. Were you in 33? John Watkins

299.

John Meyer's wingfold accident occurred during Kitty Hawk's inaugural WestPac cruise 1962-63. John was launched from one of the waist cats. As his RF8A went down the track, the right wing began to fold. The A/C banked uncontrollably to the right as it left the deck and entered the water with at least 90 degrees of right bank. Neither John nor the A/C was recovered. Any ejection attempt would have put him right into the side of the ship.

Kitty Hawk's first two WestPac deployments were made with VF-111 Sundowners flying new F8U-2Ns and VF-114 Aardvarks flying new F4Hs. VFP-63 Det Charlie shared Ready 1 with us in VF-111.

I was the senior member of John Meyer's Accident Board. I had also been on an accident board in 1958 when our squadron (VF-211/24) had an A/C experience a left wing fold on a field take-off at Atsugi. In that instance, the A/C never got airborne but tipped sharply, left the runway and lost the entire wing when the wingfold area struck a drain culvert. The fuselage skidded on its side to the end of the runway and stopped against a pile of dirt without catching fire. The pilot (Phil Bolger) survived with bruises.

During that investigation we had to do several demonstrations to convince folks that, even with 3000 psi of hydraulic pressure holding the wing panel in the spread position, with effort, an average sailor could push the outer wing panel up off the stops when none of the locking pins were in place. It was calculated that an unlocked outer panel would begin moving to the folded position at about 80 kts. There was no way an F8 was going to fly unless at least some of the outer panel lugs were engaged by the locking pins.

As a result of the Atsugi accident we recommended some changes in the wingfold locking pin rigging and wing lock operation. Changes were also made in the wingfold preflight and operating instructions for pilots and, ultimately, the locking pin inspection ports were added. However, in spite of those changes the winglock system remained unforgiving when maintenance personnel didn't follow the rigging instructions precisely, when pilots were careless in operating the wingfold locking handle and finally, when helpful people fixed protruding wingfold warning flags by stepping on them.

There was a lot more revealing detail to the Meyer accident investigation that I could share directly with anyone interested.

Flying new F8s from Kitty Hawk's big deck (even at night) was such a pleasurable experience and in such stark contrast to the white-knuckled nights in the "briar patch" of the 27 Charlies. A shame it only lasted a few years. 
Dick Cavicke

300.

Guess what? No pictures! by the time the F8U-1P had rolled about 50 feet on a basic engine T.O. the wing snapped folded past the stops! Probably was going less than 25 Knots.

Sounds to me like the accidents at the boat were not the result of a unlatched wing fold mechanism but rather a failed pin. Otherwise, with 25 knots or more of WOD, the wing would have folded before the cat stroke.

Or was it possible that the pin could pull out due to cat forces? I seem to remember a pivoted flange that dropped in place behind the head of the pin when the pin was home .. that should have prevented the pin from coming out. Wonder what the failure mechanism for this flange was...
Cole Pierce nickel 105 

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