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THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN
SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO
ATTEMPT
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FASHION.
1301
Interesting auto-throttle discussions. I only had F-8 E/D/J carrier
experience with the system. I very seldom had the auto-throttle engaged
after the ramp. I did use it consistently during transition landing
configuration to assist in slowing the jet to a trimmed (nose
dwn), wings level, 1G, on speed & then would always break out
when lined up & right after calling the ball, very seldom was it
engaged after the ramp & I have no recall of a carrier landing in
auto-throttle. If I was on speed @ the 180 it was off before turning to
final. I think (maybe the squad. LSO,s Cole? could refresh what the
policies were in the 67-70 circa) the LSO's briefed it was pilot option
except for required training???
Bill Bertsch
1302
That's how I remember it, too, Bill. A bird was a no-go for nights, however, if the APC (automatic power compensator) was down.
Cole Pierce
1303
I used APC on every pass that it would engage. I found it to be great,
forced me to be smooth. No cut passes and no blown tires in my 295 F8
landings. On the Shang there was a pilot who had a string of about 20
OK's and then a ramp strike followed by about 10 more OK's. He flew
manual. I never had that many OK's in a row but I never hit the ramp
either.
Will Gray
1304
While the discussion is still active regarding the F-8 auto-throttles I
would like to add a comment about the F-8J. Obviously, in the late 60's
LTV needed the business because I still cannot see the benefits of
taking one of the finest aircraft in the fleet, the F-8E, and adding
boundary layer control, thus developing the "J" model. Of course I know
the reasoning, but adding several hundred pounds of weight for the
tubing and stealing several hundred pounds of thrust for the air did
not leave the auto-throttles as much to work with.
During cold weather ops off the coast of San Francisco, utilizing the
carrier USS Constellation prior to the cruise, no problems were
encountered by any of our VF-53 pilots. However, as temperatures rise,
thrust is reduced. On my first approach in hot weather coming aboard
the carrier USS BonHomme Richard, during ops off the coast of Hawaii
while enroute to the Tonkin Gulf for my second cruise, the
aforementioned additions and subtractions nearly cost me my life and
the loss of a Crusader.
Using the auto-throttles, I was going slightly high in the middle, when
I made a small (or so I thought) nose correction to ease back down to a
centered ball. The auto-throttles took off too much power. As I eased
the nose back up I instantly went to a slow chevron and continued to
sink below the glide path. I went to full power as soon as the slow
chevron appeared. I saw a low ball, then a red flashing ball, and then
the entire flight deck disappeared ... I was looking directly at the
spud locker. I probably should have ejected. But bullet proof as I was
in those days, I pulled the nose up into shudder. With full power and
the light weight, the aircraft was coming up fast, but so was the ramp.
As soon as I could see over the top of the ramp, I jammed in full nose
down stick to lift the tailpipe over the top of the round down.
Obviously the procedure worked, but I honestly thought at that moment I
was going to hit the ramp. My reasoning for the procedure was that if I
could get the cockpit above the flight deck, I would still have an
opportunity after impact to either eject or end up on the flight deck
sans fuselage. When the adrenalin kicks in, everything slows down ...
giving the mind time to think, reason, make decisions, etc. This is not
to imply that one would make the correct decisions, but the adrenalin
does give us the time ...
The LSO and his platform staff all ended up in the net as he was sure a
ramp strike was imminent. I don't think I cleared the ramp more than a
foot or two. The LSO suggested a manual approach on the next pass, but
I was already ahead of him on that!
Later, during the cruise, because of problems throughout the fleet of
F-8J aircraft, a modification was made to the throttle quadrant: a
pilot could force the throttle forward beyond the normal military power
position, dumping more fuel into the engine, thus giving the pilot more
thrust; but this usually resulted in over-temping the engine, possibly
necessitating an engine change. This modification was called War
Emergency Power. There was a patch designed, and worn proudly, to
illustrate our plight: Large letters W.E.P. surrounded by the words,
"In God we trust, Our need is thrust". While auto-throttles were still
used to a great degree during the '69 cruise, we were all spring loaded
to go manual if needed.
By the way, the second approach was (OK) 3 FAW.
Ron Lambe
1305
With only small deck carriers the French Navy wanted an airplane with at least a 15kt slower approach speed.
In the early sixties there were a few F8U-3s in the Norfolk boneyard
and were scheduled to be scrapped. LTV was allowed to salvage the BLC
systems from those birds. LTV engineers designed and built one of the
most durable BLC systems ever built. And in the landing configuration
the F8E(FN) was the best handling of all models.
After the break the pilot noted the airspeed when the AOA was on speed
for that configuration. Airspeed was manually set on the APC. Wing
leading edge was split into two sections, 35 degrees and 8.5 degrees.
Outer wing section was 35 degrees and 20 degrees. Wing incidence was
lowered 2 degrees and the UHT was a bit larger. The 15kt approach speed
reduction was achieved.
NAVAIR read the PAX River reports and decided that the Navy needed BLC
on the F8E.(later F8J). After that the counter measure systems were
also added in the only space available. All in the nose section.
Results were a cg that was continually moving forward.
In the meantime wing incidence had been reduced, leading edges split,
larger UHT and the flap position was dropped even lower into the
airstream. Wave-off problems were noted prior to Fleet introduction and
many variations were tried to improve capabilities. Even a temporary
emergency engine response was added.
However, bottom line was still that if you got into hole on carrier
approach the power available from that position on the power curve left
very little margin for error.
This was probably when APC became a down item for night flying. And in
my past comments I'm sure that I used AOA vice APC, which I know caused
confusion. Engine power was upgraded later but I do not recall results
other than it maybe too late.
The DLC (direct lift control) was never put into production. It was a
very good assist in precision landing. Probably came on scene too late
to get scarce funding.
On a cloudy day near Forney, Texas an LTV test pilot was exploring the
stall envelope on F8E(FN) prototype YF8D 147036. This was on a Saturday
which would indicate that LTV was behind schedule. Cloud layers were
such that the planned altitudes could not be utilized.
As the pilot edged the bird closer to stall speed the very differently
configured F8 pitched nose up and departed in a familiar F8 maneuver.
Pointed straight down and no control the pilot ejected, 'chute opened
and he slammed into a dam on a cattle pond. A little sore the next day
and a bout with Bell's palsy later.
The bird flipped to a normal recovery and flew a fine landing approach
into a farmer's field. All recorded by this heavily instrumented YF8D.
I flew 46.9 hours in F8E(FN)s in the mid sixties. No ejections.
Phillip Smith
1306
I remember with sadness when VF-162 swapped our nice batch of F8-E's
for F8-J's. As soon as we hit Japan, most of us bought squadron hats
embroidered on the back with "BLC BLOWS".
I used auto-throttle all the time in the E. Unfortunately, there was
absolutely nothing better about the J. I never had even a hint of
increased safety with the slower approach speed. Of course, the reduced
thrust available caused all sorts of problems. If you started a carrier
pass from a normal abeam position on a really hot day, the
auto-throttle would achieve the proper approach speed and as you rolled
into a 28 degree left bank, it would go to 100 percent and stay there.
If you held everything steady, you would hit the water about the time
you crossed the wake. The answer, of course, was to start a little fast
and a little high. Once in the groove, there was sufficient thrust for
the auto-throttle system to fly the approach, but with little margin
for error.
The sluggish auto-throttle system, which worked OK in conjunction with
the reasonable excess thrust of the E model, was a real danger with the
J because there simply wasn't enough thrust. If you got a little high
the auto-throttle usually didn't reduce power sufficiently as you
lowered the nose and worked you way down to the glide path;
consequently, you found yourself a tad fast. The throttle would stay
retarded for too long attempting to bleed off a couple of knots and
when you slowed to an on-speed-doughnut, it didn't respond as quickly
as desired. We all know about the flat bottom of the F-8's power
required chart. As the aircraft decelerated along that line without
much AOA change, suddenly you would be slow as the throttle finally
responded: too little too late. In other words, because the
auto-throttle couldn't anticipate future conditions, it was always a
little bit behind.
However, the auto-throttle system had inputs from UHT position as well
as AOA. I discovered it was possible to take advantage of that feature.
When high, you could pulse the stick forward and then immediately
return to a normal position for the desired rate of decent as you
worked your way down toward a centered ball. That rapid pulse would
make the throttle reduce power both more quickly and more dramatically
than it would if left to it's own devices. Then, when approaching a
centered ball and an on-speed-doughnut, you could give the aircraft a
quick aft stick pulse. The UHT position sensor would tell the
auto-throttle to begin adding power before (literally) getting behind
the power curve. The effect of pulsing the stick when you needed a more
dramatic power change than the system would ordinarily provide,
prevented a high start from becoming low-in-the-middle, or (more
importantly) it could prevent a little high-in-the-middle from becoming
a low-in-close (or worse).
Bottom line: The rougher you were with the aircraft, the better the
F-8J auto-throttle system worked. This fit in perfectly with my style
of flying. I didn't have an over abundance of OK's but I never broke
anything or got a cut pass either. I always thought that smooth carrier
approaches and long strings of OK grades were for sissies.
Bob Walters
1307
As the gentleman from VF 53 spoke of the F8 Js, our bolter procedure in
the J model in the Tonkin Gulf was to go to military power, level off,
accelerate to I think 135KIAS and turn the bounder layer control off so
the airplane could climb! How insane was that!? In the cobwebs, seems
there may have been a temperature actuated procedure, just not sure of
that. I do seem to recall that our weight had to be reduced above a
certain ambient but don't recall the details. Just who's bright idea
was it to ruin the E model is an unknown!
Ron Coalson
1308
Frank Bachman was assigned to our sister squadron (VF 211) on one
of the two WestPac deployments we made on Hancock from 1970 through
1972. One dark evening on Yankee station I was in Ready Room 6 and
assigned to man up a spare as the Nickels (VF 211) only had two up and
ready Crusaders on the flight deck for the 0400 BarCap launch. I had no
sooner strapped in when the flight deck guy in front of my aircraft
signaled that I would launch because one of the 211 aircraft had gone
down. So, off we went and I joined up on Frank Bachman's wing and we
headed north and checked in with Red Crown. It was a normal (read
boring) BarCap and we switched the lead after we hit the tanker.
Shortly before our relief arrived on station, either Frank or I spotted
a "suspicious" craft gaining altitude rapidly over Hainan Island while
seeming to change colors. We reported our sighting to Red Crown and
they gave us a vector toward the mysterious craft. We both had good
APQ-124 radars (top of the line in those days) but even at max range
neither of us got a return. We both selected our AIM 9's to see if we
would get an IR return, but no good again. As we got closer to Hainan a
very authoritarian voice came on the radio (later identified as Air
Warfare Commander in the Gulf) and said something like "PageBoy,
Waterloo Yellow, vector 200 degrees." (Meaning we were getting to
close to Red China). Soon thereafter, our relief arrived and we headed
for Rampage. It was a beautiful "Pinkie" and Frank and I both bagged
night traps in one attempt. Frank headed for Ready One and I was in
Ready Six when we were both ordered down to AI to debrief our
"encounter." We met down there and gave the Intel folks the whole
story. Listening in was one of the meteorology officers and he then
asked us to give him the time of our sighting and the bearing and
azimuth. We did and he thought for a moment and said something like,
"well, congrats guys, you took a vector on the Morning Star (I later
learned to call it Venus). We lived and learned.
Alan Gaines
1309
VF-162 on Ticonderoga (1968-69) was the first squadron to deploy with
the "remanufactured" F8J Crusader aircraft which had gained a bunch of
additional weight and drag and lost a somewhat similar amount of thrust
in the landing configuration due to the new BLC system. When we arrived
at North Island on a Friday in the Fall of 1968 to load aboard for
carrier qualifications, the Pax River test pilots had just completed
the fleet acceptance carquals and were off-loading. They essentially
told our skipper that if we had not been scheduled to carqual the
following Monday, they would have failed the F-8J landing trials
because of the G's landing problems! (And just what was the purpose of
the fleet acceptance sea trials???). We were immediately restricted
from mounting any racks on the wings (aw shucks!)– and those
restrictions continued throughout the cruise.
We had severe problems throughout the cruise in the gulf because of the
high temperatures with the resulting inadequate engine thrust to weight
ratio of the F8J in hot weather. Eventually we were configured with a
max of only two of four potential missiles and two of four potential
guns. Because we had some very hard-working pilots with good flight
discipline we suffered only two major accidents during the cruise. Out
of 12 planes – we had one collapsed nose gear at night in bad
weather and a day engine failure and pilot ejection in the landing
pattern -- both pilots OK.
At one time early in the cruise, to further reduce aircraft weight and
help solve center of gravity problems, the staff wanted us to remove
the third of four guns from the planes. Its worthy to remember that the
20 mm cannons in the F-8 had a bad tendency to jam under high Gs --
right where you'd need them -- in a guns fight! Our CO and I (Ops) met
with the Air Wing Commander and told him we would not fly with three
guns and two missiles removed. He backed us and we completed the cruise
flying with two missiles and two guns but as a result were always
essentially below bingo fuel on night landings because of
temperature/inadequate thrust and CG problems. We survived because we
had great LSO's (J.P. O'Neill and Ron Coalson) and hard working pilots
but we were also very lucky!
The following numbers are forever "branded" in my mind! With the
temperature in the Gulf above 87 degrees, our J's had a two percent
range between approach power and full MRT power! As a result, there
were a lot of early wave off's early in the cruise because the LSO's
(correctly) would not take you if you were low, slow or coming down
approaching "in close" and because of the minimal additional power at
MRT, wave offs wee initiated further out than normal for other F8
models. The one saving grace was that the approach speed was 120 to 125
kts at our landing weights.
Our F8Js also had a CG problem in the landing configuration. As a
result a cockpit switch was installed with which the pilot could turn
off the boost pump in the tail cell (about 800 pounds as I remember
it). We had a kneepad card with the critical parameter (temp, landing
weight and tail cell fuel) and our pilots used the card to determine
how much fuel to leave in the tail cell) on landing approach. How about
Fighter Pilots having to figure CG during their landing approach! As a
result, the boost switch was normally turned off during the early
stages of the flight and it was used to move fuel forward as needed
approaching landing. I always sweated someone forgetting to transfer
that fuel but it apparently never happened. At Bingo weights, pilots
were naturally very conscious of what fuel we had and where it was
located -- you didn't let any fuel get away from you. I did suspect
however that some pilots held on to extra fuel at night.
In the Gulf, we had one nighttime in flight engagement on a wave off in
the first month of the cruise. The result was a nose gear collapse. The
weather was solid from approximately 300 ft to near 35,000 ft. and, to
the best of my memory, the nugget pilot had either saved 300 to 400
pounds of extra fuel -- above max trap -– or was late in dumping
the extra fuel.
After all these years, just today I finally realized from reading Bob
Walter's recent email AOA input the reason I survived that cruise. To
quote Bob, "The rougher you were with the aircraft, the better the F-8J
auto-throttle system worked" -- and I was rough!
Our pilots had the individual option to use the auto-throttle system or
to make manual passes. I do not remember what percentage of our pilots
used either mode but a number used each mode. I used the auto-throttle
on most passes but every few passes I would make a manual pass.
Al Fancher
1310
I can probably provide some insight into the F-8J discussion regarding "How can something like this reach the fleet?"
Assigned to the Carrier Suitability Branch at PAX when the F-8J
appeared, I was not initially involved because I was knee-deep with the
British F-4K project. The F-8J Project Pilot was Sidney "Kent" Billue,
a highly qualified fleet-experienced Crusader pilot. The F-8J was the
promised solution to all of the Crusader approach challenges plus
providing reduced wind-over-deck requirements for the 27C decks. NAVAIR
pointed to the excellent carrier approach safety record of the A-6, and
gave much too much credit to the single characteristic of low approach
speed. Many of the F-8E's were getting "long-in-the-tooth", and the
prospect of getting a re-manufactured "better-than-new" airframe was
highly anticipated. Unfortunately, introduction of the airplane was way
behind schedule, and the fleet was howling for the airplane.
I remember talking to Kent after his first hop in the airplane, and his
immediate concern was the lack of excess thrust in the BLC ON approach
configuration. Why this wasn't addressed during the LTV development of
the airplane remains a mystery because with a significant gross
weight/induced drag increase, plus a reduction in available engine
thrust, the consequences should have been obvious.
As the carrier-suitability test program proceeded, Kent advised NAVAIR
that until the wave-off performance of the airplane was improved, the
airplane was UNSUITABLE for fleet use. NAVAIR was getting enormous
pressure from the operational side of the house to release the
airplane, and Kent's prediction of a numerous ramp strikes went
unheeded. I still remember the LSO's comment on a F-8J ramp strike
AAR..."nothing is more terrifying to an LSO than to give an F-8J a
wave-off and see nothing change but the quantity of black smoke out the
back." I was astounded when I had the chance to fly the airplane in the
landing pattern...you could choose to turn downwind or to climb to
pattern altitude, but not at the same time. The fleet was it's own
worst enemy, as illustrated by a message released by an F-8J skipper
stating he had initiated a wave-off two feet above the deck and never
touched down.
NAVAIR ignored the NATC recommendation and released the airplane.
Kent's prediction of ramp strikes proved to be correct, and a program
was initiated to address the problem. Kent had moved over to the TPS
staff, and the test program to evaluate AFC-544 (reduction in
flap/aileron deflection to decrease drag plus restrictors to reduce BLC
bleed air flow) and the engine upgrade to the J-57-P420 fell in my lap.
The BLC ON approach speed increased by 2-3 kts, but everything else
moved in the right direction. Altitude loss following a wave-off
holding on-speed AOA did not change significantly, but this was a
consequence of F-8 characteristics...a flat thrust vector and shallow
thrust required curve. A recommendation to rotate slightly took
advantage of the improved acceleration/climb profile, and instead of
just decelerating, the modified airplane performed much better. The
APCS performance was also improved through incorporation of UHT input
and higher gains. When APCS was first introduced in the F-8, it's
ability to reduce the likelihood of a decelerating approach was
important, but like all APCS's at that time, it needed to see an error
in order to command a power change. The addition of UHT input provided
a "lead term", in that, like the pilot, an aft stick correction was
accompanied but a power addition and vice versa for a forward stick
input. Optimizing the APCS for all pilots was an impossible
task..."smooth" pilots preferred a high gain system, while pilots that
"stirred-the-pot" objected to the throttles "dancing around". At
Carrier Suit, we always favored the higher gains, because with
experience, pilot's could adapt to it, while the "smooth pilot" could
never be happy with a low gain system.
The F-8J remained a demanding airplane for the carrier landing task,
but the modified airplane represented about as much as could be wrung
out the F-8J. The real solution of the F-8 approach task was Direct
Lift Control (DLC). Carrier Suitability had an F-8C modified with the
system, and I had the opportunity to take it to a West Coast 27C. All
of the adverse carrier approach configuration characteristics of the
F-8 design were masked by the DLC. After flying the ball onto the
mirror, all glideslope corrections could be made through the DLC
thumbwheel. Aircraft glideslope response was instantaneous, making even
a "low in close" an easy correction. The APCS referenced airspeed vice
AOA, and normal glideslope inputs were not complicated by bursts of
power. Unfortunately, DLC didn't offer the operational benefit of
reduced wind-over-deck for the 27C's, and once reported to be part of
the F-8H configuration, it died a quiet death. Probably a good thing
because had the DLC equipped F-8H hit the fleet, Crusader pilots would
have been offering up their "first-borns" for orders to an "H" squadron.
Regards,
Kurt Schroeder
1311
F8J as far as BLC system was identical with F8E(FN). The difference was
the continued addition of ECM which everyone agreed at the time as
needed ASAP. Continued addition of weight caused changes in wing
incident angle, Leading edge changes, larger UHT, etc as weight of F8J
went up well above basic F8E(FN).
French bird never had that problem. And I never stated that PAX River
signed off on F8J. They did highly recommend BLC system as a way to
reduce F8 approach speed dramatically, which was absolutely true.
PJ Smith
1312
Flying F-8's from 68 - 82, I had the privilege of getting time in all
models from the original A to the J including one photo model (RF8G).
The very limited time in A's and B's were not kind as those airframes
were very old, beat-up, airplanes and not likely representative of
their glory years. The C/K had a nice "light nose" but the starting
system and engine were not as good as the later models. Probably my
favorite in the gun pattern though that may be due to the great ordies
present during those deployments. The little radar tied to the gunsight
seemed a nice addition to pipper tracking but lets remember that was 40
years ago. My time in the D and E happened during student 124 time and
again they were "long in the tooth" at that point in their lives. Both
had much heavier noses than the also present C birds but the engines
were peppier. During that time the D's became H's and E's became J's.
Of the birds I flew, the H's and J's were in much better condition and
thus color the "favorite" memories. Fortunately, I never took a J bird
to the boat until after the 420 engine modification. After CARQUALS I
joined Vf-24 fall of 68 and they had Hotels while 211 had the J's.
Memory serves that both models still had the P20A engines and had many
landing accidents that cruise. Vf-24 H's had a max trap of 1800 lbs in
the 2 sidewinder configuration. The engine, aircraft weight, landing
fuel availability, and landing power availability, were not happy
combinations. The next cruise memory serves that both the H's and J's
had the P-420 and that made a world of difference.
Back to the RAG mid 70 and had the opportunity to compare K's H's and
J's day in and out. The J had the heaviest nose and thus to turn well
one had to stay faster. The K, having the lightest nose was superior
below 3oo knots. My favorite was the H with the radar removed. Then
along came the spin droops. Memory serves that their speed limit was
300 but down below 250 even the J would turn with a TA-4 with tanks.
Finally a couple remarks on the RF-8G. All my time was with the 420
installed, but down low and up to .96 Mach it was the speed king and
the extra 1,000 lbs of gas made it go FAR. Up high, it also took fewer
lbs per hour to zip around at .90 to.92. Scott Ruby always said the
RF-8A was the range king which I cannot dispute. Favorite - the Hotel
with the radar removed. It was also the fastest on a speed run, I quit
several times at 1.9 when the nose started to wander (radar
installed.) I'm no aero engineer but someone told me the aircraft
was more stable with the CG further forward.
Jim Alderink
1313
With regards to the Tic's Catapult, the apparent model was the C-11-1
and came from a British designer named Colin Mitichell. According to a
great article you can pull up on the internet, its design really saved
and made carrier aviation. The old Hydraulic Cats had just about
reached their limits, being the energy they could generate. At that
time right after WWII 9,300,000 foot pounds of force. With the war
ended Colin Mitichell, returned home to Scotland and continued
researching his design for a slotted pressure tube that could open and
close without losing much energy. He first made that concept work with
a wooden tube he built and when he was successful with that went onto
develop a 12 in steel model that did the same. The Hydraulic cats
required a 45 foot deceleration to bring the shuttle to a stop. The
work in England and the US continued with a new design for the steam
cat to only need around five (5) feet to stop the rams connected to the
shuttle. This gave the rams another forty feet to develop enough energy
to do the jobs of throwing planes and pilots safely off the front of
our ships for the last sixty plus years. So, with the steam, the energy
levels jumped from the 9,300,000 pounds of energy to then over
36,000,000 pounds and continued to grown until now. This enabled the US
Navy to not only fly into the Jet age but get those jets off a carrier
at sea or anchored in some port like Genoa, Italy where four VF-62 guys
were shot off while the ship, Shang, was at anchor there one afternoon.
I believe that shot gave us an end speed of a - 1 of -2 knots. So, the
US bought five of Mitchell's catapults, one went to Philadelphia, two
to the USS Hancock, and two to the Tico. Now were moving ahead with the
electro-magneticcats, but that's another story. Larie VF-62
Larie Clark
1314
Ejection Seats Fly Off The Shelves
By Karl West (of the Sunday Times)
ONE sunny February afternoon off the coast of Florida, Linda Maloney
was tearing through the sky on her way to "launch an attack" on the USS
Forrestal, a 60,000-ton aircraft carrier. It was a routine exercise for
the US Navy pilot, a training run carried out with another senior
officer. But as her A-6 Intruder neared the Forrestal, everything
started to go wrong. The aircraft began to spin uncontrollably.
Maloney reached down for the ejection seat handle and pulled. She was
rocketed up and out of the jet and seconds later was dangling below a
parachute as it drifted down toward the sea. That was in February 1991.
Maloney went on to have a long and distinguished navy career before
retiring in 2004. She has since married and has two sons. She is one of
7,419 pilots who owe their lives to a small, family-owned company at
the end of a lane in rural Buckinghamshire. Martin-Baker has fought off
challenges from the goliaths of the defense industry to become the
world's leading producer of ejection seats.
This small manufacturer out in the sticks accounts for 48% of the
global market. Goodrich, owned by United Technologies (UTC), the
American giant, is a distant second with 18.6%. Martin-Baker has been
making ejection seats for fighter aircraft since 1949. This niche
business helped it to pre-tax profits of £41.7m on sales of
£178m in the year to March 31 last year. Remarkably, the company
is still owned by the Martin family, led by 70-year-old twins John and
James, the sons of Sir James Martin, the co-founder and aviation
engineer. Last year the family shared £35m in dividends from the
business.
This lucrative slice of an important niche market has made Martin-Baker
the target of numerous private equity and trade suitors. "Every month
we have someone calling up offering to buy us. But we have no intention
of [selling]," said James Martin, joint managing director and technical
director. Martin-Baker's cutting-edge technology and expertise have
been built up over many decades.
The business was originally founded as an aircraft manufacturer in
1934. Sir James Martin and Captain Valentine Baker developed several
aircraft models before and during the Second World War. However, Baker
was killed in an accident during a test flight of the company's MB3
prototype in September 1942. The engine seized and he was forced to
make an emergency landing, but the stricken aircraft hit a tree stump.
Martin watched as his friend met his death. He was devastated, but his
grief drove him to a new goal. He threw himself into designing escape
systems for aircrew, eventually settling on the ejection seat.
The first live test ejection took place in July 1946 when Bernard
Lynch, a fitter at Martin-Baker, volunteered to be shot out of a
modified Gloster Meteor flying at 320mph at an altitude of 8,000ft.
Lynch made a perfect landing. "He was paid an extra 10 bob [50p in
today's money] and bought a drink in the pub," said Andrew Martin,
James's son.
The business has come a long way since those buccaneering days.
Martin-Baker's seats, viewed as the industry gold standard, can be
found in nearly all the world's leading fighter jets, including the
Eurofighter Typhoon (partly built by BAE Systems), France's Dassault
Rafale and Lockheed Martin's F-35 joint strike fighter, the world's
biggest military program. Flying with the top guns of the aerospace
world brings its pressures. But the septuagenarian brothers are still
heavily involved in the running of the business and they have no desire
to relinquish control. "I think that's because we are doing something
we enjoy," said James. "It helps if you are successful as well."
Old-fashioned principles form the bedrock of Martin-Baker's success. "We have never borrowed money," said James.
"Banks always want to lend you money when you don't need it, and want it back when you do," added John.
Martin-Baker funds all new product development from its own cash. This
is no mean feat for a small company — particularly when it costs
about £60m to develop every new ejection seat. It's a big
investment, but once the initial outlay has been made the seats could
be in service for 30 or 40 years. Each one has to be regularly serviced
and the business makes money from fitting them with replacement parts.
This leaves it less reliant on new sales — profits are split
50-50 between sales and aftercare.
For now, the company is safe in the brothers' control. And there is a
new generation of the Martin family coming through. Robert, son of
John, is director of engineering, and Andrew is the director of
business development. And they too are fiercely committed to retaining
Martin-Baker's independence.
"The business is of the right scale, where we can be involved in making
all the key decisions," said Andrew. "We don't want to get much bigger.
We like to focus on being profitable and being around forever, instead
of doing a Marconi or some of the other spectacular crashes we've seen."
When the twins eventually decide to hang up their parachutes, they will
hand over a business in rude health. Martin-Baker has 650
employees and has delivered more than 80,000 ejection seats since it
began production 64 years ago. There are currently 16,268 of its seats
in service around the world.
The American forces are its biggest customer with 4,766. France is a
long way behind in second spot, with 1,001. There is also burgeoning
demand for its wares from forces in the Middle East and Far East.
The key statistic is that Martin-Baker's ejection seats have helped to
save 7,419 pilots — including Maloney, who was the first of nine
women to eject using its equipment. The numbers mean that for
every 10 seats Martin-Baker makes, one saves a life. Some pilots
ejected in the heat of battle, while others joined this exclusive club
for more mundane reasons, such as bird strikes or technical failures.
On average, each year there are 30 ejections involving a Martin-Baker
seat.
"There is a lot of laborious work that goes on here. But the fact that
something they [the staff] are working on will save someone's life
— they take a lot of pride from that. We are in the life-saving
business," said Andrew.
The company wears this badge with pride. The names of all those who
have successfully ejected are displayed on a wall in the factory's
reception area. A large digital scoreboard in the factory yard also
keeps a tally of aircrew saved — 7,419 to date; 11 this year; two
this month.
A tour of the factory at Denham, near Uxbridge, provides a glimpse into
the work that goes into being the best at their small role in some
multibillion-pound programs.
Inside a computer simulation room, a designer has a 3D image of the
seat's gun cartridge up on screen. The graphic allows the engineering
team to examine every part of the design in detail even before a
prototype of the component has been built.
"So much time, energy and cost can be saved by using these tools. We do
as much simulation as a Formula One team," said Andrew. Britain has a
lot riding on the success of the F-35. UK manufacturers will build 15%
of each jet, generating significant export revenue and giving a boost
to the economy. The program is expected to create and support more than
24,000 jobs across the country.
Martin-Baker has 43 British companies, mainly small and medium sized
businesses, helping to produce components for the F-35 seat. The parts
are then shipped to the factory for final assembly.
All its seats must go through rigorous safety tests before they are
certified. They are fired from a Gloster Meteor at its test facility in
Northern Ireland.
The Meteor was the first British jet fighter to enter service. So it is
a surprise to discover that the aircraft is still being used to certify
the ejection seat destined for the RAF's newest acquisition, the
F-35. One of the improvements made for the F-35 seat is an airbag
that inflates around the pilot's neck. It automatically deflates when
the parachute is deployed. Martin-Baker's boffins dreamt up the cushion
because there is no normal instrument display in the F-35's cockpit
— everything is displayed within a high-tech helmet. This has
increased the weight of the pilots' headgear by about 30%. The extra
weight places more pressure on the neck than a conventional helmet when
the pilot is propelled 300ft into the air. The nitrogen-filled neck
brace is needed to hold the head in a safe position. When Bernard Lynch
was first shot out of the Gloster Meteor's cockpit back in 1946, the
time between the eject handle being pulled and the parachute opening
was 30 seconds. For the F-35, it takes just 1.5 seconds.
The jump-jet version of Lockheed Martin's fighter, which has been
ordered by Britain, has automatic ejection — the onboard computer
will decide whether to jettison the pilot to safety. This would
usually happen only if there is a problem with the lift fan, made by
Rolls-Royce, during take-off and landing, when the aircraft is still
close to the ground. Any problems this near to terra firma mean the
average human reaction time of 1.5 seconds is not fast enough. These
slim margins between life and death are where Martin-Baker proves its
mettle. It keeps doing so time and again.
For this, 7,419 pilots and their families are forever grateful to the company.
A framed letter on the factory wall from Captain Chris "Boris" Becker
probably sums up their feelings: "Thank God it was there when I needed
it."
1315
I was thinking in terms of air to air but the 20 mm in the F8 was a
fine weapon air to ground. As noted by others the guns were put to good
work supporting Marines and others on the ground often when that was
all we had returning from the DMZ, RP1 or Laos where we did a lot of
work.
In early March of 1967 Steve Harlin and I were returning from the north
with only 20 mm left. We got a call from an O-1 FAC, Jan Horack, who
had a lot of NVA in the open but under a very low overcast. We managed
to find him after going out to sea and letting down under the crud. We
couldn't get enough altitude for a normal 10 degree run so he talked us
around in a racetrack pattern like a PAR approach. We'd shoot when he
told us, hope to miss our ricochets and keep the pattern going until we
used up what 20 mm we had.
Turned out the bad guys were a major portion of 324B, an NVA division
that fought the Marines around the DMZ throughout 1966-67. Jan picked
up a Silver Star for his work that day,
(http://projects.militarytimes.com/citations-medals-awards/recipient.php?recipientid=40416)
Bruce Martin
1316
I had occasion to use an MB seat on 2 July 1967. It performed pretty
much as advertised, including inflicting the typical crushed cervical
vertebrae. The a/c blew up about ten seconds after I ejected according
to the A-4 pilot, Marty Yarnell, who had joined up with me after I was
hit. Thanks to the seat I can write this many years after the fact.
Some time after the ejection I received two mementos, a charred USAF
plastic book that we used for ordinance codes, save-a-plane info,
frequency cards and the like, (it had washed ashore and was picked up
by a Marine recon patrol. The sgt. who found it was able to discover my
name in the wad of melted plastic, tracked me down and sent it to me),
and a letter from Sir James Martin. He invited me to visit "the works,"
an invitation I failed to fulfill much to my regret. Later still I
received a tie with the Martin-Baker logo. Recently the company has
commissioned a commemorative wrist watch for those who have used the
seat. It's a handsome thing that costs about as much as the seat
probably did some 40 years ago. Unless I hit Mega Bucks I'm going to
have to pass on the watch.
Bruce Martin
1317
Re: "Was F-11 first supersonic A/C aboard ship?"
No.
I observed - in February 1957 aboard USS Roosevelt ...
VX-3 did Navy acceptance CQ's for the F8U, F-11F, F4D, and A4D (out of
Jacksonville) at the same time. F8 was first to launch at end of CQs,
so I suppose it gets the honor. Maybe a tie.
Don't know if F4D was supersonic in level flight.
Unfortunately, the F8 pilot hotdogged, right after launch by kicking in
AB and engine flamed out. No MB seats in those days, but he survived
splashdown - getting out - parachute deployed. Every time the helo
tried to pull him up, the the parachute inflated, and they had to put
him back in the water. By the time a rescue man got to him, he had
drowned and a destroyer's launch finally plucked him out of water. I
took an 8 mm movie of the episode.
Marlo Holland
1318
The significant speed distinction of the Crusader was not that it could
go supersonic in level flight but that it was the first operational
aircraft of any service branch that could fly 1,000 MPH in level
flight. Of course, it also went supersonic on its first test flight,
another first.
Larry Sietsma
1319
Please let me try to confirm that the Grumman F11F Tiger was the first
a/c purchased by the USN that would go supersonic in level flight. A
DVD tribute to the Grumman Tiger can be purchased from the GRISSOM AIR
MUSEUM in Peru, IN.
The F11F-1 that I first flew (Bu. No. 141876) out of Kingsville, TX on
March 5, 1959 in AB did reach Mach 1.05 after climbing to and leveling
off at 45K. There was a slight nose down tuck as I passed through Mach
1 then steady supersonic flight, gradually moving up beyond Mk 1. Fuel
control adjustments might account for some variations in air speeds.
What I also was told, back then, was that the F11F was the first A/C
purchased by the USN that would go supersonic in level flight.
Cdr. Vince Kelley was my wingman on that First Supersonic Flight in
Advanced Training. Two other student aviators also became first to fly
supersonic during that same time of flight: Ltjg. Gene Conner, USN and
USMC 2nd Lt. Jim Ellis. Having gone supersonic which had been the
purpose of those flights, I chose to come out of burner, drop down to
10K feet and do some slow flight with gear and flaps down, before then
proceeding back to the Kingsville NAAS Initial Point. With power back
to 80% and Cdr. Kelley in tight formation on my left wing, we passed
over the IP at 450 knots (vs. 250 as called for) and I broke at 350
over the numbers. Cdr. Kelley soon called to the LSO, "He's all
yours! I can't catch him."
The 80% power setting had been good all the way down from 10k and
around to getting the Meatball centered, lined up with the runway and
to being on airspeed. As I began to apply only a "little power" for the
first time, like I would have done in a F9F-8 that I'd been flying
previously, the LSO shouted into his mike POWER!! So instead of moving
the throttle only a little, I quickly moved it what seemed like a lot.
That turned out just right (and to have been just in time). My thanks
to that LSO.
On Nov 2, '59, in VF-124, I flew an F8U-1 for the first time (Bu. No.
143793) out of Moffet Field. Eventually, as the syllabus called for it,
I achieved Mach 1.58 in level flight (slightly more than 1,000 MPH).
Years later, as I awaited departure from the USN in VU-7 at North
Island, twice as many of the oldest F8U-1s as would normally be found
in a fighter squadron were on board for aerial gunnery towing. That's
where and when I learned about serious fuel control adjustments being
made to save those engines and reduce costs. On one of my last F8
flights, I couldn't even go supersonic in slightly descending flight in
AB. But I enjoyed looking down at the So Cal coastline from LA to San
Diego. Those were the days!
Best,
Gunnar S. Jenson
1320
Supersonic F8U: The scuttlebutt around the plant at Vought was that the
Crusader was the ONLY "100-series" airplane that went supersonic
without any modifications. I remember well when then Marine Corps pilot
John Glenn flew an RF8U from west to east coasts faster than the bullet
from a .45 automatic, making a continuous film strip all the way, also
a first. Glenn was a hero to me long before he attained fame as an
astronaut and later Senator. I was real happy for them when I learned
that Annie's stutter had been "cured."
I was also intrigued to learn that Bell shaped the nose of their X-1
the same as a .45 bullet, since very little was known then about shock
waves and supersonic flows. The only supersonic aerodynamics I got in
college c.1955 was how to calculate the shock wave angle produced by a
similar-shaped nose.
Garland O. Goodwin
1321
For the Photo Pilot in Vietnam, supersonic was not greatly important
but high subsonic was the key to long life there. Our mech's turned up
the wick on the sleepy old J-57 when we went to the war and the usually
fast RF8G became very fast. The crew also waxed the wing and made it
even faster. Running at 600 KIAS at 3500-5000' in MIL made it a great
machine, anytime I got below 600 I bumped it back up with a little
burner: very hard light at those speeds with welcome results, right
back up to .99M in a hurry.
Will Gray
1322
This is all from memory of 54 years ago. I went to Vought with Bill
Russell and Whitey Varner to get a 2 1/2 day classroom checkout for the
new F8U-2/2N in late 1958 or early 1959. We had a full day with the
lead "aerodynamicist" whose lectures about Reynolds numbers, etc, went
well over my head. I recall that he was only 29 years old (genius?)
when put in charge of the Crusader project and remember that the
company was disappointed with the max speed obtained in the first test
plane(s); something around 1.4 mach. Then they "coked" the fuselage a
bit just behind the cockpit and dramatically improved the speed. Again
if memory serves me, they could obtain 1.9 mach in a slight dive adding
a little "G" force for stability. Later, I had an F8U-2 just out of
maintenance check and after performing the check items, decided to see
how fast it could go. Straight and level, altitude in the high 40s, the
mach meter read 1.85 (close to 1200 mph), but the nose began to "hunt
and peck" and the canopy got hot to the touch. Fear and common sense
made me back off at that point.
Dick Murdock
1323
Facts are that the F8 wins the prize!!
F4D was great until you tried to turn it, ran out of A/S rapidly and
afterwards was easy prey as was AF-1E (FJ-4 to many). Played patty cake
with 4 VF-22 (?) FJs over Atlantic off Cecil.
Circa 1959, I have seen some the names of that group on this net, Wayne
Miller was flight leader that day. They could not touch me and I was in
an RF-8A.
While the other birds had questionable runs at Mach 1, only the F8 could get it up and sustain it and was an operational bird.
Also many forget that F8 was Leading MIG Killer in ratio of kills, 6-1 if my memory is correct.
I could look it up but ...
P J Smith
1324
The 2ed fam flight at VF-124 at Moffett was a speed run. I had a brand
new 2NE (as it was designated then) on its fourth flight. While in
level flight it went to 1.98 IMN and was still accelerating when the
chase pilot asked me my speed. He then told me to slow down as he had
lost sight of me. It was still stable and I believe it would have made
2.0. After landing the chase said the limit was 1.9 due to canopy
heating limits. The BuNo was 146935.
Jerry Kuechmann
1325
Kuech - I also had an acceptance hop in a new 2NE while in VF 174.
Clean bird, no racks or rails , hit 1.98 and had NAS Glynco ground
speed me at 1196mph.
Mac McCarthy
1326
I flew production test flights for NARF, PAR, O&R, out of NORIS for
a couple of years. Every test flight required a speed run. The fastest
that I was able to get a reworked F8 was an F8D (F8U-2N), to 1.95 imn.
As described earlier, the nose began to twitch in yaw, which I always
attributed to the vacuum tube stabilization systems, and a few stray
electrons. One certainly did not want to lose the yaw stab at that sort
of speed! I have read also that others managed to get the photo birds
up to high speed. My experience with the original engined, F8U-1's,
-1E's, -1P's was that the P-4A engine would drive the the RF8A or G to
about 1.45 imn max. The F8A's and B's could reach between 1.6 imn and
low 1.7 imn. The F8C with the P-16 was the best flying airframe, with a
maximum speed of about 1.8 imn. The F8D was the fastest, with the F8E
just a bit slower. This was with the P-20 engine. Because of the radar
improvement, the F8E seemed nose heavy and just that bit less
maneuverable in a hassle.
Good memories!
Roger Crim
1327
Speaking of F8 speed runs, I can remember hitting 1.96 off Beaufort, SC
in a clean (no rails) F8U-2 (F8C). It still had some oompf when the
nose began to wander. The D's seemed to give up the ghost around 1.85.
As for the F11's, in Kingsville I recall easing the nose down to get
supersonic. Great days.
Semper fi, Don Treichler
1328
My most memorable speed run in an F-8 occurred in an F-8C in 1968 when
I was a Test Pilot at NATC Pax River. I was assigned to be the Navy
witness of the first Mach 2 speed run of the F-111B. I flew to Peconic
on Long Island and briefed the flight with Ralph Donnell, at that time
the Chief Test Pilot for Grumman who was later killed in an F-111B
takeoff accident at Peconic along with one of my TPS classmates, Bucky
Wangeman. We were to climb out of Peconic to the north up toward
Nantucket to 36,000 ft the isothermal layer for the Mach 2 demo in
straight and level flight. I had to throttle back to 92% in the F-8C
during the climbout to keep from overrunning the F-111B but we finally
reached 36,000 ft and turned over Nantucket to head back to Peconic
maintaining 36,000 ft and staying off shore parallel to Long Island.
When Ralph went to AB to start the Mach 2 run, he had a flameout on one
engine which he successfully re-started. I was in and out of burner
until we got to 1.5 IMN just to keep the F-8C from getting too far
ahead of him. Once he passed 1.5 IMN he started to move the F-111B out
fairly smartly. He finally passed me up when I was indicating 1.8 IMN
or just a hair above which coincides with Roger Crim's observations in
his email. The telemetry verified that Ralph did crack Mach 2 while I
still had him in sight, but he had to do a split S to the landing
pattern at Peconic where he was essentially out of fuel. I never did
understand why it was necessary for the Navy to visually witness Mach 2
in the F-111B.
Semper Fidelis,
Art Bloomer
1329
No mention above of runs with the P420 installed and for my money, that
engine made a big difference. I never made a speed run with the P420
RF8G but saw 680 indicated in basic down low. That bird could move a
long ways down low. With lots of time in both H's and J's with the 420
- both had more pep than their lighter D's and E;s. I will also plead
guilty to ending my run at 1.95 in the H when the nose started to
wander. It "felt" like it wanted to keep accelerating. Never got a J
past 1.8. Now how about some stories about long distance without aerial
refueling?
Jim Alderink
1330
Speaking of long distance flights. One of the training flights in the
RF8 syllabus was a long range mission that required the FRP to go photo
a target in Texas. and/or other long range targets. and return to
Miramar. The distance travelled was over 1,500 miles.
At one time, I was tasked to photograph the missile site field on the
border between Canada and the US in Montana. I refueled at a SAC base
in North Dakota. Photographed the field until bingo fuel reached. Bingo
distance was over 900 miles. No big deal. Landed at Miramar with less
then 500 pounds. Head winds were a little higher then I figured. Have
landed with less fuel on other occasions.
It was not unusual to go from Cubi to Atsugi non-stop. Particularly
when the jet stream was around. Even without the jet stream.
Particularly in the original RF8A - before they added 1,700 pounds of
weight to make it an RF8G. The RF8 also carried 1,000 pounds more fuel
then the fighter.
On an other subject - watched the coverage of Miramar in the good old
days whereVFP-63 aircraft were significantly included in the video. One
of the A/C has a side number of 937. That was one sick bird. Was not
permitted on any CARQUAL evolution. Would do weird things off the cat.
Pitch, roll, etc. - take your poison. Flew it to the beach when it was
decided to get rid of it. THe cat shot was an exciting ride. First A/C
to be sent to D-M when the decision to downsize the squadron size.
Scott Ruby
1331
TR asked about water injection.
Not that it did not happen but I do not recall.
Another story of injections was of a very toxic liquid that ate right
through its tank, cannot remember substance nor purpose, but it was
chopped quickly.
PJ Smith
1332
I also don't recall any F-8 with water injection. As a TWA flight
engineer I had some experience with the 707-131 "water wagons" using
the JT3C-6 (civilian version of the J-57). After all these years I
don't recall how much water we carried for take off, but it was a
significant amount. The water was not only heavy, it took up a lot of
room too and I can't imagine any F-8 being fitted with water injection.
The tragically heavy and woefully underpowered F-8J was fitted with WEP
which I remember as being not much more than a throttle detent at full
military power. You could push the throttle past the spring detent and
get a tad more power by over speeding and over temping the engine thus
saving your butt from a ramp strike while setting the next pilot up for
a subsequent engine failure. Couldn't they just have left the E model
alone?
As for the "toxic liquid" mentioned by P.J. Smith, I recall a smoke
reduction system fitted to our aircraft which injected some mystery
fluid into the tail pipe when I was in VF-162. Rumor had it that some
of this liquid accidentally spilled on the deck, someone breathed in
the vapors, and either went to sick bay or dropped dead on the spot
depending on where the sea story was being told and/or how many Cubi
Specials had been consumed. Anyway, as I remember it, this stuff didn't
do much good, it was indeed quite poisonous, we were worried that
combat damage to the tank could cause a leak and contaminate the air
conditioning system, and somebody higher on the food chain than I
decided not to use it. That was fine with us.
Bob Walters
1333
I recall a flight, I think in the E, from NKX to Andrews AFB with a
fuel stop at NAS Memphis. 1567 miles, 2.8 hours. FL 430, 200 miles out
ATC loses surveillance radar, approach radar not up, Tacan 40 degree
error, NDB only, 1500 broken, good vis, sucking fumes, find the field,
come into break, gear down, wing up, nose gear indicates unsafe, go
around, recycle gear, still unsafe, really sucking fumes now, blow the
gear down, still unsafe, on second short final nose gear finally
indicates safe. Touched down with less than desired fuel. No problem
with landing gear. Nose gear position indicator switch froze up at
altitude and thawed out on final.
After finding a mech that knew something about F-8's I departed Memphis
with full bag of gas at 3am after refilling the air bottle, resetting
the emergency extension system and drop-checking the gear. Ops normal
to Andrews except upon landing would have 3,000 pounds more fuel than
max landing fuel allowed. So, what to do? Gas is cheap. On final GCA,
1,500 feet over Wash DC dumped 3,000 pounds of fuel at 4am. I don't
think I would do that today.
Gary Williams
1334
Long distance flight--
While based at MCAS Beaufort, SC, we often flew cross countries to
Alameda for the great seafood. Stopping for fuel in Dallas, the
distance was not a problem on weekends because the Restricted Areas
were cold.
A mechanical problem on one flight, however, dictated a weekday return.
The cold temps of the early morning departure allowed takeoff without
burner but, much to our surprise, all of the restricted areas were hot.
The vectors around them added considerable mileage to the flight.
When I pulled the throttle back for the descent into Dallas, the red
Low Fuel light illuminated. Although not much fuel was used at idle,
that red light glared at me for the next 140 or so miles. The flight
totaled 2.9 hours in the F-8B with distance something over 1500 miles.
Larry Sietsma
1335
The P420 did make a big difference in performance. The "H" with the
P420 was the only F-8 I flew that could go from the banner escort
position to the perch without using burner.
Jerry Kuechmann
1336
Regarding Dink's inquiry about long distance flights, while flying in
VFP-206 in the early 80's, I came up with the bright idea to fly
non-stop, unrefueled from Miramar to Cecil. Since VFP-206 was based at
NAF Washington and the prevailing winds at altitude were westerly, it
became much harder to accomplish than I had thought in just getting an
RF-8 in position at Miramar. Winter was more ideal than summer with the
lower latitude jet stream. After two years of waiting for an
opportunity, the chance came on a deployment to Yuma in February 1982.
It didn't work out for Miramar to Cecil, but I did fly non-stop,
unrefueled from Yuma (NYL) to Navy Jax (NIP) on February 13, 1982 in
145607. I logged 3.0, all at night, but it was longer. I remember how
cold I was. I planned a max range profile which meant a cruise climb
and a constantly decreasing mach number. I recall getting up to the
mid-40s with a fuel flow well south of 2000 lb/hr. That meant no heat
or pressurization air. At any rate, over Texas I really needed a MAF
bag, but that was the one item I forget to pack. I crossed my legs and
flew the last hour in agony (but that did keep me awake!). It was well
after midnight at Jax when I asked for a straight in without the usual
detour around Cecil. The approach controller was a real tool. He saw
how far I had flown and assumed (correctly) that I was on fumes. He
snidely suggested that I land at Cecil if I couldn't make Jax. I
replied that I could make Jax just fine, but if I didn't land ASAP I'd
need to clean out the cockpit after I landed. I got the straight in,
landed, climbed out and ran behind the Gator where I left a small lake.
With no onboard nav system, it was all direct to Tacans. The late night
flight helped me avoid any detours. I figured the distance at 1750 NM
at least. It turned out that the winds weren't as strong as I had
hoped, so I believe with the right winds, the RF-8 could have made
Miramar-Cecil non-stop. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Moon Rivers
1337
Bob Heisner. You may have known the two old wise men we had on staff in
the early years of VF 174, Doc Townsend and Art Derrick. Both were TPS
grads.
With respect to stability and control of the F-8 in high supersonic
flight their theme was that the oblique shock wave from the wing and
forward fuselage started to bend back, become more oblique, starting at
about 1.6 or so began to "mask" the rudder with the resultant loss of
vertical stability in straight and level flight. The ventral fins on
the deuce moved the problem up to the handbook red line of 1.85 IMN, (I
forgot the absolute #).
The solution was the big extendable ventral fins on the bottom of
F8U-3. Those who flew the big monster reported no yaw past 2.0, by then
the canopy overheat light became the primary concern. The stab aug
system had been refined as well.
In class, Art D. would show some old Schlieren photographs of
supersonic flight that he had managed to find in the files at Pax.
similar to the ones in the 1960 version of the NavWeps 00-001-80F,
Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators, Chapter 3, High Speed Aerodynamics. He
also had a model rigged to rotate with a hand crank, suspended with
rubber bands on the wingtips that would go ass over end when he really
cranked it up. All in all, it convinced us NavCads that pushing the
thing to the limit wasn't a smart thing to do.
Hey PJ. Did I read while back that you flew some 2Ns & 2NEs at the
factory, up to 1.9? Where? With the IFF off so Fort Worth center
couldn't follow you? TR.
TR Swartz
1338
If you ever had a real hot F8A and were able to get close to 1.6 it
would begin to hunt and get very uncomfortable. Yet with the other F8s
with ventrals the yawing came in at a higher Mach #.
And do you remember that the F8U-3 had much larger ventrals.
When LTV pilots were required to fly at the 1.8+ regime the yaw system was always backed up by a battery system.
The Aeronautical types had data to show that it would swap ends and ruin your whole day!!
P J Smith
1339
Re long distance flights. I just found my # 2 log book, all F-8 time.
Oct 21, 1961. Buno 148666, a 2N, Cecil to Dallas, 2.0. Dallas to
Nellis, 2.5. Big shootout at the Nellis "O". Next day, Oct 22, Nellis
to Miramar, 1.0. Full bag of JP, a water bottle, 4 Snickers from the
Ops gedunk machine, then non stop from runway 6 at Miramar to Cecil,
3.5 hours. Good tailwind, maintained a constant cruise AOA which
dropped the IMN from .86 to about .78. Fuel flow at +/- 40K was 1850
before the slightly above idle descent starting over Shreveport to a
straight in to runway 9 at Cecil, with 600 pounds remaining.
No sweat. In fact, the dry cabin air sucks all of your body moisture
out, I couldn't even get an inch of urine in the water bottle.
T R Swartz
1340
Here are the stories I have that involve USAF F-8 pilots. Capt Will
Abbott of VF-111 and Maj R G Bell of VF-162. Abbott was shot down by a
MiG and Bell was killed on the ground at Bien Hoa after diverting from
the Oriskany.
These events are documented in Chris Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses".
Abbott is probably the only USAF pilot to leave two Crusaders. This was
his second. The first was on 29 April 1966 while in the pattern at NKX.
This second ejection is documented in the Martin Baker ejection history book "Sir Martin Baker"
Gary Williams
VF-211
5 November 2013
---
5 September 1966
F-8E 150896 VF-111, USN, USS Oriskany
Capt Wilfred Keese Abbott (POW)
A section of Crusaders from the Oriskany was jumped by MiG-17s that
suddenly emerged from cloud near Ninh Binh. Both Crusaders were damaged
by cannon fire, one of them fatally, as it tried to turn inside the
MiG. The North Vietnamese must have been somewhat confused when they
captured the Crusader pilot because Capt Abbott was a USAF pilot on
exchange with the Navy. Capt Abbott's right leg was broken when he
ejected and although the North Vietnamese eventually operated on the
injury it took over two years for it to heal properly. Capt Abbott was
released from captivity on 4 March 1973.
---
16 May 1965
A-1E 52-133901 34 TG, USAF, Bien Hoa
B-57B 52-1568, 53-3867, 53-3871, 53-3873, 53-3893, 53-3904, 53-3913,
53-3915, 53-3930, 53-3937 8/13 TBS, 405 FW attached to 34 TG, USAF,
Bien Hoa
F-8E 150931 VF-162, USN, USS Oriskany
At 08:15 on Sunday morning, 16 May, Capt C N Fox and his navigator,
Capt V L Haynes, were sitting in their B-57B at Bien Hoa about to start
engines to lead a flight of four aircraft on a strike. Fox's Canberra
was loaded with four 750lb bombs under the wings and nine 500lb bombs
in the bomb bay. Without warning Fox's aircraft exploded and debris hit
other aircraft on the flight line causing further explosions in what
seemed to be a chain reaction. When the smoke cleared the scene was one
of utter devastation with dead, dying and wounded airmen and wrecked
aircraft everywhere. A complete J65 engine was hurled half a mile and
smaller fragments were found at twice that distance from the flight
line. The only man from Capt Fox's flight of four aircraft to survive
was navigator Lt Barry Knowles. He and his pilot Capt Kea had had to
abort the sortie due to a malfunction and were walking away from the
aircraft when the explosion occurred. Kea was killed by flying shrapnel
but Knowles was knocked over and injured by the blast and was rescued
by SMSgt L E Adamson, the maintenance line chief. In addition to Fox,
Haynes and Kea, the other Canberra crewmen killed were Maj Underwood,
Capt Shannon, Capt Jepson and 1Lt Wagner. As well as the 10 B-57s that
were destroyed, a US Navy F-8E, a USAF A-1E and two VNAF A-1Hs were
also completely wrecked. The F-8E had diverted to Bien Hoa just minutes
before the explosion after it developed a fuel leak while on a close
air support mission over South Vietnam.
The Crusader pilot was Maj R G Bell, a USAF exchange officer with the Oriskany's VF-162, who was also killed in the explosion.
A total of 30 VNAF A-1s received some degree of damage as did a USAF
HH-43 helicopter. The remnants of the 8th and 13th TBSs immediately set
up shop at Tan Son Nhut and continued operations as best they could but
it was some time before the squadrons could function normally again.
The 27 USAF men who died were: SSgt Jesse Rodriquez Acosta, SSgt Jose
Ruben Aragon, TSgt Secundino Baldonado, Maj Robert Graham Bell, SSgt
Brian Dale Brown, TSgt Claude Marvin Bunch, SSgt James Martin Cale,
SSgt Robert Lewis Clark, A1C William Thomas Crawford, SSgt Edgar Stoms
Donaghy, A1C Terence Dean Engel, TSgt Aaron Gregor Fidiam, Capt Charles
Nathan Fox, Capt Vernon Lee Haynes, SMS William Donald Hicks, SSgt
David Lee Hubbard, Capt Arthur C Jepson, Capt Andrew Millard Kea, Capt
Ernest McFeron, TSgt Charles William Rachal, A1C Clifford H Raulerson,
TSgt Donald Joseph Seaman, Capt Billy Eugene Shannon, TSgt Gerald
Allison Snyder, Maj James Edward Underwood, 1Lt Lee Celin Wagner, and
A1C Hayden Edward Weaver.
This was the worst single incident suffered by the USAF on the ground
during the entire war and was only eclipsed by the terrible fires on
board the USS Oriskany and Forrestal. Twice as many aircraft were lost
in the accidental explosion at Bien Hoa than had been destroyed by Viet
Cong attacks on aircraft on the ground in the war up to that date. The
cause of the explosion was thought to have been a malfunction on a
time-delay fuse on one of the bombs carried by Capt Fox's aircraft.
1341
Here is a memory. Navy Times article. On 6 Oct., 1960 Lt. Col. R. R.
Peebles, the C.O. of VMF-232 swore 1st Lts. Lew Amick, Dick Pederson,
and Rick Carlton (me) into the Regular Marine Corps by radio as we were
doing a 1000+ mph speed run over MCAS Kaneohe and down the island
chain. We were in the F8U-1E, clean and mean. I have had it to 1.8
(redline 1.67)mach and zoomed to over 60M. I chickened out and was
pushing over as I remembered blood boiled at 67M, but I was young. We
had no tail fins like the F8U-2 got so it would get squirrelly at high
speed and high G's. Those were the days!
Rick Carlton
1342
I taught the AIM 9 missiles in VF-124 from 1965-1968. I do not believe
that AIM 9B was used in Vietnam. If it was, it was only at the
beginning. The AIM 9D had a nitrogen cooled seeker head and was far
more pointed than the blunt-faced AIM 9B. It did not have caging coils
to hold in still while no power was applied to aircraft A rubber cap
was devised with embedded magnets to hold the seeker head aligned so it
would not bounce around on deck and during handling.
I would bet all missile shots were from-the-hip with the sidewinder
growl. There was a range meter for sidewinder retrofitted into all F-8s
(early models already had them) that could tell the range and indicate
the max sidewinder range. However, this device was dependent upon a
radar lock-on. I guarantee you no F-8 pilot bothered to look into a
scope and attempt a lock-on in a Mig environment. There was a boresight
radar mode that locked the radar into a seeking-lock on mode which
could automatically acquire the Mig (if within the projected nose cone
of detection) and thus enable the meter. I also doubt any Migs were
downed or fired at using this device either. The pilot's head was out
of the cockpit as it should be in air to air combat.
Most misses fired with tones were due to being out of range for the
angle. The farthest range was possible when directly behind the Mig
with overtaking airspeed. The shortest range was possible when at an
angle off and at the same or slower speed than the Mig.
Sidewinders were fired from a button on the control stick. Guns were
fired from a trigger on the stick. Both could be hot at the same time.
Missiles were selected with a blade switch on a panel in front of the
control stick. F-8 could carry either two or four sidewinders. The
dogfighting characteristics were inferior with the four missile
configuration and most pilots preferred the dual arrangements.
Al Lansdowne
1343
Moon's escapade in the 80's going from Yuma to Andrews shook some of
the cobwebs loose from the gray matter upstairs. I recall many flights
from Miramar to Beeville, TX which was only about 1060 NM. Would go
there to stock the flare compartment with smoked hams and turkeys from
the Country Store which I would drop some off at Tinker AFB for the
in-laws and bring some back to Miramar. Also John Peck and myself took
a two ship to Beeville for a retirement ceremony of a fellow F-8
Driver. In the fall of '75 Det III began working towards a MED Cruise
aboard the Saratoga. I have an entry which shows a Max Speed of 1.64 as
well as an altitude of 62K plus. Beachball, our maintenance chief, had
just repainted our aircraft in AC colors and had stuffed a new engine
into 146863. Did a PMCF which went real well with some fuel left over
so the speed run and zoom climb. At that altitude you can really see
the curvature of the earth and the sky is a deep azure blue. If the
engine had crapped out, though, I wouldn't be writing this as I didn't
have a pressure suit ... just plain stupid but ... Log book shows
several runs from NKX to NZC (cecil) which was about 1800+ NM. Since we
were put on a 72 HR alert for the cruise ( story was they didn't have
room for us on-board for the cruise) decided to check out the snow
conditions in Vail. So in January '76 made a camera run on the slopes
of Vail ( pics still hang on the wall of the condo) which was ~1352 NM,
give or take a few, taking 5.3 hrs due to the camera runs. Remembrance
was landing with about 800 #'s and, like moon, after hitting the fuel
pits could only make it to the back of the plane after shutdown. 5.3
hours was definitely max endurance for a bladder without a ditty bag!
Garnett W. Haubelt
1344
For Garnett -- I was that guy in Beeville. And still have fond memories
of the brilliant, perfectly timed fly by you honored me with. Thanks
again.
Bob Ferguson
1345
"Frankwood" remembrance, I flew Frank's wing on my first NVN Combat
sortie in 1971 in VF-211 aboard Hancock. We were assigned as TARCAP for
about eight A-4's who were in trail on a Photo F-8. Some may recall the
"Blue Tree" mission, code for 'let's get them to shoot at us so we can
bomb them', during the bombing halt. The RF-8 made its run near the
Hour Glass and turned feet wet. A-4's were released to drop on targets
of opportunity and Fighter F-8's were to cover their six. Frank was
earnest about not losing sight of any Hawks below, which meant his
nugget wingman was in for a wild Yo-yo, ride for life. All mission
aircraft RTB'd Hancock.
Frank was out with us on the next cruise, but not all of it. On day one
of Nixon's all-out bombing campaign in1972, Linebacker II, Hanna was to
be the "ready deck", and her flight deck was cleared of all aircraft.
The F-8s cross-decked to Constellation, alongside. I don't think Ranger
and Saratoga were out yet, but eventually, four carriers operated
together in the Tonkin Gulf. A few days before the biggest night of
bombing over Hanoi and Haiphong since November 1967, Frank and I were
sent to Danang, and told to stand by for message traffic. We had been
in the barracks for a couple of days, entertained with a few sorties to
the Red Dog Saloon. Later Cowboy Brotherton was to find out that nurses
lived above, but that's another story.
RM-1 McDonald, a senior Navy radioman at Danang airfield, had been
tasked to keep in close touch with us so he could pass messages of
importance. At our first meeting, he asked me if I had ever heard of
Livingston, Louisiana, where he hailed from. I recalled that one of my
ancestors had been banished there, probably for stealing. I later
learned that wasn't quite accurate, but McDonald liked the fact that I
potentially had a convict in my background.
He offered to let me ride shotgun with him in his Navy Jeep across the
bridge into downtown Danang. He gave me a flak jacket and an M-16 and I
climbed aboard the right seat. It was an uneventful journey and
probably a good thing, since I had little idea of how to un-safety an
M-16.
That night, Frank and I were the only patrons of the Red Dog. In those
days, I did not drink alcohol, and turned in fairly early, leaving
Frank to man the four wooden walls on his own. Sure enough, at
oh-dark-thirty, sometime after 0230, RM-1 banged on my door. He had a
TS for us. We were ordered to launch at 0300 as a MIGCAP section,
heading north up the coast to a point south of Hanoi. Our message did
not say that over three hundred US aircraft would also be entering our
area, but it did loosely define a major strike by both the Air Force
and Navy.
I woke a very sleepy Frank Wood. He said that he felt just awful, and
that I would have to take the lead. Engines started, section taxi and
take-off all seemed normal, ziplip. As we passed across the DMZ, as
badly as Frank felt, he hung in there. The fireworks around downtown
Hanoi were outstanding. SAMs were being volleyed en masse, passing
harmlessly away. I believe no aircraft were shot down feet dry, and
only one went in feet wet, pilot recovered. We were tanked feet wet and
it was time for our relief to show. Only one F-8 arrived. My PC-1 was
half way down and oil fluctuating. As miserable as Frank was, he sent
me back to Danang, while he double cycled. He was one relieved fighter
pilot to be back on the deck with only one boot on. The other was full.
Frank had had either a station tour at NAS Whiting or NAS Pensacola or
a primary flight instructor tour. During that time, he and his brother,
I think it was Joe, also stationed nearby, checked out in the Beech
C-45, Bamboo Bomber. Frank told me that there were two independent
pitot static systems. As they performed pre-take-off checks, they
noticed one of the systems was down. The weather was down too, as Frank
told it - take-off minimums. They decided to launch anyway and just
after leveling off, IMC at about 3000 feet, the second pitot system
quit. Now without artificial horizon, airspeed, altimeter, or VSI, they
were down to the last trim, engine gages and needle ball. They tried
pulling a little power to start a gradual descent - airplane pitched
over and the descent became a dive. Power back on, the nose started up,
and soon the wind stream got very quiet - airspeed deteriorating
quickly. This went on for more than a few minutes, both pilots were
captured, hanging as close to Hell as any human being would ever dream
of.
Frank did not tell me what prayers were said, so either this was an
epiphany or an instant reconciliation with the Maker. Power retracted
slightly; nose down; airspeed rising rapidly -"what's that?", one of
them called out. They had flown through rising stack gas from a paper
mill North of Pensacola. The same one that stunk up the area for at
least several generations of fledgling Navy Pilots. Down through the
heat, Frank could make out the ground around the stack, and over he
went in a tight spiral. Pulling out at about 200-300 feet, he was able
to ground navigate back to NAS.
H. Livingston
1346
I got to VFP-63 in early '67. We were still doing night
navigation and night photo over at Chocolate Mountain. Thank
goodness they had decided to suspend night photo in the war.
Nothing like being over indian country not knowing exactly where you
are, shooting off flares: madness. By the time I got to Vietnam
we were no longer racing around at very low altitude and popping up to
get shot down over the target. We were 3500-5000' going fast,
still it was stupid when the mission was post Alfa Strike BDA within 4
minutes of the last bomb. We had fighters dueling with AAA sights
and getting shot down big time. After we lost our O-in-C and
before the week was over we had lost five F-4's from our ready room
some of the tactics changed. Went back in 72-73 and did not
do Afla Strike BDA and the fighters did not duel with AAA sights.
Lots less aircraft lost in an environment was just the same as it was
in 67-68 except for the addition of the ZSU-23, I got shot at by
one of those only once; it was an impressive string of bullets and
close, could hear them going by and I was doing >600 KIAS.
Over the years, I shot a lot of photoflash cartridges but only in
airshows: enter the famous photo-loop at 550 KIAS shooting one a second
and salvoing whatever was left at the bottom of the loop. Never
had one hit the fuselage. Interesting that you could see the
timing fuse burning in the cartridge as it left the aircraft, then the
big flash and boom and big puff of white smoke Good for airshows
and nothing else...
Scott Ruby
1347
One more thing about flying night photo. There were two basic
options -there was enough moonlight to see the ground - or it was too
dark to see the ground. When I was first in VFP-63 from1961-1965, there
was a night nav series of flights where you were given a series of
coordinbates on the ground where you had to go there and identify what
was there. Got you use to flying around at low level and navigating at
night. Got pretty good at it after a while. These points could be
intersections of roads, trails, etc, power stations, or anything that
could be properly identified. Except. On about the fifth flight, I went
to a set of coordinates and it was in the middle of nowhere. I must
have spent 20-30 minutes trying to find something I could identify.
Finally, gave up and told the photo brief guy at the time, I could
not
find anything except the side of a hill. It final dawned on my some
time later, there wasn’t anything there, and the photo brief guy
was testing me to see if I really knew what I was doing.
If it was too dark to see the ground, you had to use a
pathfinder. In the early days, that meant an A3. Did not have a
particularly good nav system. If we had been tasked during my 1971
deployment, would have used an A6. This also meant no lights on, and
flying in formation. No use telling anyone where you were. Flying at
night with no lights can be a little hairy. If it was really dark, I
had the pathfinder put a flashlight up on his console where I could see
it. If there was any kind of break required because of being shot at.
the pathfinder would break left and I would go right, and we would
rejoin somewhere upon mutual agreement. When it came time to fire the
flares there were two basic methods to keep from going blind when the
flares went off. One was called the blink method where you would close
one eye when you felt the flares was expended. Never worked too well
since you usually got out of synch. The most common method was to close
one eye during the release of flares. Also squeezed off a half a
percent of power, so you slowly drifted aft of the pathfinder so the
danger of hitting him was significantly reduced because you lose depth
perception with only the use of one eye. Of Course,the mirrors were
turned inward t reduce the effect of the flash going off. Lots of fun.
On the particular night where I found the flak trap. I had to
drag an F8 fighter along as escort. The F8 has a range only radar and
could not follow me through a turn. Therefore, to keep track of me, he
had to fly in formation. He started whining about flying formation at
night with no lights on. so I got rid of him, and flew the rest of the
flight VFR -plenty of moon. On that particular flight, there were some
15 or so aircraft milling about smartly in the same area. The Spads
were below 3,000 fet, I was operating between 3-4,000 feet. amd the
A4’s were above 4,000 feet. Everyone was responsible for
maintaining their own safety of flight. The ideas was that they would
blow something up and I would photograph it. The guys at VInh had a
bunch of searchlights going, so everyone stayed clear of tht area. No
one found anything to drop on, and it turned into a boring flight.
Except that As I was roaming around, I found what turned out to be a
flak trap. I saw these lights that looked strange. Evenly spaced, and
would go on and off together as I drove in on them. Also, Looked like
they were being operated by a rheostat system. Decided to see what was
going on, and photographed the area. Turned out I was right. Never
trust those sneaky little bastards. Had a good time.
Scott
1348
There were two types of flares used by the RF8 - the smaller ones were
rarely used if ever. There is a difference of opinion as to the
candlepower provided by each of the types. Airspeed during a night
photo run was limited to 400 knots. Apparently there were times when
the explosive charge kicking the “flashbulb” charge out had
either deteriorated or was insufficient to clear the aircraft. There
were indications that if the speed was more then 400 knots, there times
when the cartridge would “bounce” down the fuselage, and
punch holes in the skin of the aircraft. The RF8 could carry 40 of the
larger flares, mounted in two packs in the area behind the cockpit. The
boat did not like to launch night photo missions, because it required
the boat to go to strict EMCON conditions while the flares were being
loaded. Loading the flares required the photo mates to use a ladder
leaning against the bird while it was on the cat immediately prior to
launch. Not an easy thing to do, and dangerous for the personnel. To my
knowledge, the smaller flares were never used in combat. Mostly because
they were felt to be unreliable. The last time I flew a combat night
photo mission was in 1965 off the Midway. I found a flak trap near
Vinh. I/we found we could shoot off a string of 10 flares before they
got serious about getting close. That covers about a two-mile stretch
of ground. On another mission, I came back with a full load of
flares, and trapped. For whatever reason, they taxied me down hot into
the hanger bay. When the boat found out what had occurred, they almost
s--- a brick. After that, any flares not used were salvoed prior to
recovery. You had to count to make sure all were fired off. On a
prior deployment, I flew a practice mission into Korea. The Air Force
said we could photograph the runway at Osan AFB. We sent a
message to the Air Force, telling them the parameters, and what they
could expect. Back came a message saying to stay 500 feet north of the
runway. They said everyone would be wearing steel helmets. A lot of
good that would do. When a cartridge is fired, a white hot ingot comes
out of the casing. When the charge goes off, and the filliments Ignite
and fall to the ground. After the run, which I fired all 40 cartridges
There was dead silence when we departed the area. About two weeks later
we get this rather large package from the Air Force containing all the
stuff that came out of the bird. It seems all the crud and corruption
drifted onto the runway and fouled it. The sweeper could not pick it
up, and they had to use personnel to walk the runway and pick all
the stuff up by hand. We were told never to come back again. I know of
no capability of the RF8 using wing pods to fire photo cartridges.
Also, I believe night photo missions, using the flares, were used in
1964 when VFP-63 was flying missions into northern Laos. Chuck Klusman
could probably confirm - or deny - the use of them.
Scott Ruby
1349
I too was glad to see night photo runs for the RF-8 over Indian country
suspended. There was a lot of talk about missions but they never
scheduled. I will admit that one of my most humorist flights was a
night photo over the Chocolate Mountains. In the different airwings
that I was in, (except for one that I was briefly assigned to until a
replacement OINC could be sent out from CONUS.) the photo pilot, no
matter his rank, briefed and lead the photo mission. The escort was
just that, the escort. On this particular night for the night photo run
over the Chocolate Mountains my assigned escort was a senior officer. I
was giving the brief on the photo run and was covering the best
position for the escort. But before I could get to the whys for this
position I was interrupted and told by my escort that he knew how to
fly his plane for me not to worry about it. His plan was to fly in a
one to two mile radar trail. I just said "yes Sir", and thinking
"three bags full". All was well until we got to the CM range and
started the run. After the first couple of flares went off there was a
very loud scream over UHF and I saw an F-8 escort in full afterburner
in a steep climb pass my starboard side. When we landed, the post
flight debriefing was declined. I have often thought about that flight
and get a chuckle each time.
I do not recall seeing in this discussion the fact that we
replaced the photo flares with chaff cartridges for daylight missions
in Indian country. I did use a few of those against SAM and AAA
radars.
As with Scott and Will, I also flew a few photo loops in air shows. Generally it was well received.
Andre
1350
I got to VFP-63 in early '67. We were still doing night
navigation and night photo over at Chocolate Mountain. Thank
goodness they had decided to suspend night photo in the war.
Nothing like being over indian country not knowing exactly where you
are, shooting off flares: madness. By the time I got to Vietnam
we were no longer racing around at very low altitude and popping up to
get shot down over the target. We were 3500-5000' going fast,
still it was stupid when the mission was post Alfa Strike BDA within 4
minutes of the last bomb. We had fighters dueling with AAA sights
and getting shot down big time. After we lost our O-in-C and
before the week was over we had lost five F-4's from our ready room
some of the tactics changed. Went back in 72-73 and did not
do Afla Strike BDA and the fighters did not duel with AAA sights.
Lots less aircraft lost in an environment was just the same as it was
in 67-68 except for the addition of the ZSU-23, I got shot at by
one of those only once; it was an impressive string of bullets and
close, could hear them going by and I was doing 600 KIAS. Over
the years, I shot a lot of photoflash cartridges but only in airshows:
enter the famous photo-loop at 550 KIAS shooting one a second and
salvoing whatever was left at the bottom of the loop. Never had
one hit the fuselage. Interesting that you could see the timing
fuse burning in the cartridge as it left the aircraft, then the big
flash and boom and big puff of white smoke Good for airshows and
nothing else...
Happy New Year. We are all blessed just by being here
unlike so many of our mates who did not make it back to the ship.
Yogi
1351
Thanks to Jim Patton and the others who recalled the Paper Mill smell
with something akin to "pleasure". As Jim Patton aptly pointed out, no
matter where I have ever run into that Paper Mill smell, it takes me
back to those awesome days when I finally got to understand the rare
relationship that grows between a Pilot and his aircraft. Now, after
two strokes, I can no longer fly at all and I must rely on those
fabulous memories from my days at Saufley, Kingsville, and Beeville
along with my time in VF-174, VF-62 and VF-932 at Willow Grove.
My Childhood home was in Ambler, PA just 10 miles from Willow Grove and
some of my fondest memories of that time were when my father would take
my older brother and I to Willow Grove during WW II to lay on the
hillside at the approach end of runway 10. We would watch the
F6F's doing touch and go landings for hours.
My last flight in the Crusader was very special to me. I asked Dutch
Schultz our CO for a starp training day in 1968 and took one of the old
Crusader's we have at the Grove up the Pennsylvania Turnpike to
Harrisburg and turned north up the Susquehanna River to the confluence
of the West branch and North branch of that beautiful stream. I turned
NW up the West branch! I dropped down to about 500 feet and accelerated
up to 400 kts. In a about 2.5 minutes I was approaching Lewisburg, Pa
and could see the bridge from Lewisburg to Montandon ahead. I knew the
area like the back of my hand since I had attended Bucknell University
on a Football Scholarship and I knew at 4:30 PM on a late October day,
the Team would be practicing on the practice field just west of the
open end of the stadium where I had enjoyed some fun days in the late
1950's .
I pulled up into a 80 degree nose high climb and rolled left and pushed
over as I crossed over the two water tanks that sat just east of the
Stadium on the bluff of the River. I lit the burner and was doing about
560 Kts as I passed over the practice field and the Team at about 100
feet of altitude. I pulled up into the setting sun and rolled
repeatedly to keep my aircraft number difficult to see. It was awesome!
A few weeks later, I received a call from my former and current at the
time, coach Bob Odell ( now deceased). He asked me to join the team for
a Team breakfast before a game with Penn. I was honored to do so and at
the end of the meal, I looked across the table at my former coach and
said. Coach! I hear you have been bothered by some low flying aircraft
recently??? He turned as red as a beet and said, "Brady you son of gun
( he never swore). You ruined that practice! All the players were
scared that then excited when you flew over. Man, how fast were you
going? We didn't hear a thing until you went by! And then all hell
broke loose!
Practice was over! I loved it.
Jim Brady
1352
All the posts on the paper mill "aroma" near Saufley also bring back
fond memories. I got my wings in Aug 1958 and was "plowed back" at
Kingsville where I got used to a new odor, the Celanese plant just to
the north at the initial for runway 13. It was quite evident after a
cold front passage but one could even smell it in the cockpit of an
F9F-5 at 1,500 ft enroute to the initial from the north. Hadn't thought
about those smells for years until reading all these posts.
Art Bloomer
1353
OK One more for memories. I was flying a B-stage aerobatic solo out of
North Whiting in an SNJ on a partly cloudy day in August of '52. Made
the mistake of climbing above a low broken layer to do my manuvers
oriented with the cloud lines. An hour later I let down through the
breaks in the clouds to find myself over an unending forest of pine
trees and absolutely nothing else. Total panic. Where is anything? Lost
plane procedure, head south, look for the gulf. Before I ever saw the
gulf I got a strong wiff of good old St. Regis (I hoped). Got wind
direction from the smoke rising from one of the many stills scattered
in the pine trees. Turned into the wind, five or six minutes later
spotted St. Regis and headed home. Had to extend my flight plan twice "
for being cut out of the pattern".
Dick Bishop
1354
As a USAF puke transferring to the Nasal Reverse, I didn't experience
the evil smell of the paper mill as you did during your formative years
of Naval Aviator Training. We in USAF pilot training were enjoying the
beaches of Destin and Panama CityBeach, Fl. A much more sophisticated
way to pass the boring hours of T-28 cross country flights to exotic
destinations with Cuban Cigars, silk scarves and Spanish Port.
I was employed with Delta Airlines in 1961 as a flight engineer
trainee in the DC-6. We trained at Columbus, GA. which had the most
obnoxious paper mill in the US. As a result, when I smell one, I don't
go back in time and reminisce about the training bases and how
fantastic the flying was, I revert to the landing checklist for the
DC-6 and try not to throw up over that crappy smell.
You Navy guys are just too "sensitive".
Pat McGirl
1355
An Old Pilot's Reflections
Pilots are people who drive airplanes for other people who can't fly.
Passengers are people who say they fly, but really just ride.
Fighter Pilots are steely eyed, weapons systems managers who kill bad
people and break things. However, they can also be very charming and
personable. The average fighter pilot, despite sometimes having a
swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love,
affection, intimacy and caring. (However, these feelings don't
involve anyone else.)
Flying is a hard way to earn an easy living.
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to society. The optimist invents the airplane; the pessimist, the parachute.
Death is just nature's way of telling you to watch your airspeed.
As a pilot only two bad things can happen to you (and one of them will):
a. One day you will walk out to the aircraft, knowing it is your last flight.
b. One day you will walk out to the aircraft, not knowing it is your last flight.
There are rules and there are laws:
The rules are made by men who think that they know how to fly your airplane better than you.
The laws (of physics) were ordained by God.
You can and sometimes should suspend the rules, but you can never suspend the laws.
About Rules:
a. The rules are a good place to hide if you don't have a better idea and the talent to execute it.
b. If you deviate from a rule, it must be a flawless performance (e.g., if you fly under a bridge, don't hit the bridge.)
Before each flight, make sure that your bladder is empty and your fuel tanks are full.
He who demands everything that his aircraft can give him is a pilot; he who demands one iota more is a fool.
There are certain aircraft sounds that can only be heard at night and over the ocean. Most of them are scary.
The aircraft limits are only there in case there is another flight by
that particular aircraft. If subsequent flights do not appear likely,
there are no limits.
"If the Wright brothers were alive today, Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs." (President, DELTA Airlines.)
In the Alaskan bush, I'd rather have a two-hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
An old pilot is one who can remember when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.
Airlines have really changed; now a flight attendant can get a pilot pregnant.
I've flown in both pilot seats. Can someone tell me why the other one is always occupied by an idiot?
And my favorite;
You have to make up your mind about growing up and becoming a pilot. You can't do both.
Andy Hill
1356
I see there has been a great deal of apparent turmoil over the use of
photo flash cartridges in a combat environment. I personally did not
have a great deal of concern over the use of night photo tasking. As
long as it was done on my terms. That is, no tasking of night photo
after a night-time strike, where everyone was unhappy about being
dumped on, and a photo bird would be along to evaluate the damage - if
any. There was always the next day for BDA - if required. Also, the
flexibility to vary from assigned tasking - if in my opinion - it was
not a good idea to continue on.
During the warmup period prior to the 1971deployment, I got together
with the F4 squadron to see if they could put me over a pin
point target. Not very well, but their maneuvering would have given me
vertigo. Not a good idea. No one in the det knew about this
effort except me. Talked to CAG and the staff if there was any chance
of us being tasked for night photo, probably not. If tasked, only Jim
and I would do it -only because we hade done it before. Then, only if
Jim would volunteer to do it. If I understood Jim correctly,. he was
not a big fan of night carrier landings. At the time, I had more night
landings on the Midway then anyone in the air wing. On my third
deployment on the boat.
Would fly night photo on two basic conditions. One - there was enough
moonlight where I could se the ground. Two - would use an A6 as a
pathfinder if it was a dark and stormy night. Never practiced with an
A6, but I think they had a pretty good radar from what I could
determine. A pin point target could be covered with about five
cartridges. three, if the pathfinder was really good. That covers
about a mile with less then six seconds wings level assuming I could
see the ground, or the path finder did a rolling turn into a wings
level. Would limit the number of cartridges to ten - under most
conditions. It took at least 2-3 for the bad guys to realize what
was happening. Another 3-4 to get serious about cranking any guns my
way, and another 3-4 to get any kind of a reasonable track. Using a 2
second delay, the flares go off a good 800 feet aft of me. A 4 second
delay means they go off at least 1,600 feet aft of me. Typically, when
getting shot at, it always started in trail, and they would try and
walk the burst up on me. Does not take long to get out of range. Would
really have to convince me to do a night photo run in an
extremely high threat area where there was multiple gun emplacements
over a long distance. would have had to convince ne that the risk was
worth the effort.
On the 1965 deployment, we sort of made things up as we went along. No
one had a clue as to how things should be done. On the first attempt,
we decided we would follow a bunch of A4’s along a prescribed
route. In a two to three mile trail. A dark and storm night. Once we
got set up, I DR’ed the entire route. Never saw the A4’s
after departure for the IP. we had an F8 and an F4 squadron onboard.
F8’s were useless at night as an escort. All they did was whine
about flying formation at night with no lights on. All I could watch
was seeing the radar altimeter going up and down. Not a good idea - a
little scary.
It was just as well that night photo tasking was never seriously
considered. It would have taken too much effort to maintain currency at
night, and limitations on loading flares at night aboard the boat was
not something they wanted to do. Still if some idiot had wanted me to
do it, I would have planned the mission. On my terms.
Scott Ruby
1357
With regards to Scott's email, we did try night photo once or twice. It
wasn't too effective. The escorts, using only radar nav, had trouble
getting on target. It had to be a night with a reasonable moon to show
the terrain to some degree. As I recall, we caught some trucks on the
road a few times, but nothing of any major significance. It was kind of
fun to fly over the bad guys and know that you are ruining their night
vision for quite a while. The AAA was never very effective at night
because we were rather low (around 3000' AGL). I don't think they had
radar controlled guns at the time. We did catch a few trucks on the
roads and may have caused a few delays, but without any bullets or
bombs, we caused little damage to the bad guys. I was kind of
interesting to fly that kind of mission for a change.
Chuch Klusmann
1358
1959, VF-124 Bob Burlingame was with a FRP on his first formation
flight. The FRP overran Bob and knocked his wing off. The plane dropped
into San Francisco bay and, of course, was the news of the day. A
reporter interviewing Bob asked how it felt to have to bail out of a
million dollar plane; Bob's response was that he felt worse the
previous week when he lost $200 in Reno. The Navy PR man shouted to the
reporter, "Don't print that, don't print that!!!!"
Dick Murdock
1359
Gunnar Jensons' memory of Ev Southwick trying to shoot down a NASA
balloon, reminded me of a great story Sam Flynn told a bunch of F-8
guys at a dinner of being launched out of Key West to destroy Fat
Albert that had broken off its tether. 4 F-8s were initially loaded
with Sidewinders until Sam informed the Skipper a heat seeker wouldn't
work on a balloon. They all shut down, unloaded winders and loaded
guns. By the time they got airborne the balloon was quite high and far
away and they realized they wouldn't get very close. The Skipper lead a
super sonic pitch-up, firing guns and kicking rudders hoping a 20mm
might find its way to Fat Albert. As the guns started firing all 4
J-57s flamed out. Sam said when he looked back inside the cockpit he
was descending backwards through 66K. I think a couple spins resulted.
Maybe Rattlers' memory is better than mine and can add or correct my
recollection. Even though Sam only drank only 10 High and not Mexican
beer, he WAS the most interesting man in the world.
Dave Woltz
1360
For Ron Knott:
Ron; I read every page of your book and it was very well done. Of
course, that has been and remains typical of everything you do! The
Crusader was the wild stallion of our youth and you rode it fast and
hard! The Crusader demanded that of us, she loved to go, but you always
had to respect her for she would kill you in a heartbeat if you asked
her to do something she didn't like to do. I am sure you remember John
"Pirate" Nichols and Dick Oliver and Howie Bullman standing in the
ready room at Cecil and Pirate saying, " Tweaketh not thy aileron"! Of
course he was discussing the fact that at high G trying to tighten a
turn with aileron would often result in Departure. We had some awesome
Sticks in VF-62 to learn from when we were nuggets. I think we were
very lucky to have had some great sticks at VF-174 like TR. Ski, Duke,
Pete and others. They are probably the reason why I am here to write
this note! You and I had some great hassles together. I think we about
broke even, but maybe that is wishful thinking on my part?? This I do
know! I will always regard you and everyone who helped me learn to love
the Crusader with deep respect and admiration and affection.
Jim Brady
1361
"Rock" Miller VMF-212: so many special memories!
* Rock briefing me on how to chase Marion Carl (meet him @
yellowsheets, no brief,no freq change calls or signals, an hour of
smooth aerobatics in trail, only debrief was "Good hop!" @ yellowsheet
sign-off.
* Ops O Rock calling me, the flight-line officer, find a reason to fail
the post-start checks on a certain VERY nervous field-grade on a bad wx
day.
* Great parties @ the Kaneohe club, w/ ample Lancer's rose' (for
'212 Lancers of course), and Rock using the club's red napkins as a
bandana to go w/ his dress uniform.
Next, MARTD Atlanta, where I had the privilege to refam Rock in the
F-8, and be his Ops for a too-short while, until he could trade up for
Larry Adkinson.
* I hope Colleen and the boys have forgiven my old basset hound,
Bruddah, for eating a whole bag of their Snickers, while they were
house-sitting.
In each of these stops Rock was always one rank senior, but NEVER felt
the need to pull rank. His team-mate approach "Hey, do me a favor"
would get any of us JO's to walk or fly through fire w/ him, knowing
he'd get us out the other side.
We had many good F-8 drivers @ Kaneohe that went to deservedly wear
stars (Bash Wills, Drax Williams, Harry Blot, Rich Hearney, Mike
Sullivan & probably some I've missed), but Rock was THE MAN, among
some exceptional guys, and it was always a puzzle why he didn't get his
star(s) in the Corps, but I'm sure he's getting them now!
Semper Fi Rock!
Dennis Craney
1362
As ADM Boland may attest, Kingsville's annual Navy Relief Drive Open
House was South Texas' social event of the year in the early '60s. One
year, the Blues cancelled at the last minute. VT-23 CO Harry Padbury
summoned the "Santa Gertrudis (housing area) car pool" composed of
Marine Capt's Rock Miller, Doc Blanchard, Maggot Ruthven, and Navy LT's
Bob Saville and Dick Schaffert to his office, gave them 5 F11's and 5
days, and orders to "put something together." We located a scarce
country road through the mesquite, blew a lot of dust and scorched a
few trees, while having the time of our lives. We opened the air show
with the Blues signature division takeoff, from the narrow right
runway, while Doc performed a high-performance takeoff towing a gunnery
banner off the left. When Doc got the banner back over the field, we
made maybe the first/last ever diamond gunnery run. Our "highlight" was
a high speed low level diamond down the runway with a 5g pull to the
vertical and a bomb-burst with an F11 heading to each point on the
compass, into a split S reversal to meet over the middle of the field
(in rather scary head-on passes). We finished off with a division
landing and were de-planing to the roar of the crowd when CDR Van
Demark (then-recent survivor of the Rosarita Beach TailHook) came over
in an inverted high speed pass into an outside loop, and stole the
show. His eyes were bloodshot for a week but he swore he didn't exceed
3.5 negative g's. Rock Miller excelled at everything he did, and that
was a lot! As defensive captain of our squadron football team, he led
us to the base championship. How could we lose? None of the other teams
scored against us! As the center on our "IP" basketball team, he
enjoyed "stuffing" the Larry Durbin All-Stars (and any other team the
students could put up). We'd be at least 20 points ahead before the
students fully understood what "jungle rules" meant. In the community,
Rock was a role model for a lot of kids, including mine. My only regret
in serving with Rock was that I didn't get to go to war with him, but
that's the breaks of Naval Air! The last time I saw him was as an OSD
Inspector of ANG and Reserve Squadrons in the late '70s. One of the
last units we inspected was the Marine guys at Atlanta. They were rated
as the "head and shoulders" group from dozens of others. I was not
surprised to find Rock as their leader. When St. Peter waved the Rock
aboard, I'm sure the words "welcome, thy good and faithful servant"
were used.
Brown Bear.
1363
For Gunnar...
As much as I appreciate the honor of your including me in the early
days of Crusaderdom, your wingman in VF-191 must have been H.
Badarsington Purvis, my evil twin. While he was performing so
brilliantly, I was in action over the stormy North Atlantic challenging
the evil Soviet submarine menace while flying Stoofs day and night from
the Navy's last straight deck carrier, Lake Champlain. Although golden
arms run in the family, such talent couldn't surpass yours when you
beat me out as Student of the Month at Saufley Field in late 1957.
Cheers,
Pete Purvis
1364
I remember in about 1967 when we had some admiral come take a fam
flight in our brand-new A-7As. All us nuggets thought it was amazing
that some very senior guy could just jump in our new airplane with no
training and actually fly it. I am thinking that it was Adm. Moorer.
The interesting thing was, he had a PC2 failure on the flight and
handled it like a pro. We are all duly impressed and learned that maybe
it wasn't as hard as we were making it.
Tom Brown
1365
It would be difficult to determine which squadron has the most traps
over the years. However, I would think VFP-63 would be in the running.
63 flew off various boats through 1982. During the Viet Nam era from
1964 through 1983, 48 dets from 63 participated in the fun and games.
Figuring - conservatively - 300 traps per det, including
buildups, that comes to 14,400 traps. During my last deployment, we had
closer to 400 traps. Jim and Worm made centurion. Then if the squadron
averaged 2.5 dets deployed per year, at 300 traps per deployment in the
remaining years, That comes to over an additional 11,000 traps. That
brings the total to over 25,000 traps. On at least two separate
occasions, all five dets were deployed at one time in the 70's and
80's. I believe 25,000 traps by VFP-63 is a conservative number, and
probably a lot higher. It would take a lot of digging and detective
work to determine exactly how many traps any particular squadron had.
But I do believe VFP-63 would be in the running.
Scott Ruby
1366
Counting carrier landings is a little like that old story from the
101st Airborne reunion: The young Lieutenant finally finished bragging
about his 100th jump and asked the grizzled old guy with the cane how
many jumps he'd made. The reply was, "Only 4; Fort Bragg, Anzio, Sicily
and Normandy!" I distinctly remember my first landing on the Saipan in
'57 and my last on the Connie in '73, but not many of those 276 on
Yankee Station.
V/R Brown Bear
Dick Schaffert
1367
One day. Mugs McKeown shows up to be my escort into Laos. I told him
where we were going and what we were going to do. I then made some sort
of statement that we would leave a little early so he would not be
short of fuel. Mugs then said, "I can go anywhere you can go and not
worry about fuel". Or words to that effect. Well, an F4 can't at the
altitudes we were flying. Not only did I manage my fuel, but I managed
my escort's fuel. Took me a couple of hops to calculate what was going
on in the F4, but not a big problem. Slowed down a little to make it a
little easier on him. Finally, about the time I figured he was starting
to get near bingo, I asked him about his fuel remaining. He says fine -
he speaks with forked tongue. I go on a little more, and finally, I
decide it is tome to go home a little early. I ask him if he wants to
hit the tanker. "No!" Lying again. Finally we land. I do not know
exactly how much fuel he actually had onboard, but at the most, he had
no more then 1,000 pounds left. Probably less. All's well that ends
well. Mugs is a good guy, sorry to hear he is having problems.
Scott Ruby
1368
There's a million stories about Mugs, most all great fun.
My first real encounter with Mugs was at Kingsville. We were on same
Flag football team. Mugs was the running back at about 185# in those
days. I was playing guard at about 165#.
After returning to the huddle, Mugs starts chewing my ass about not
blocking and letting the opposing lineman into the backfield. He then
notices blood come from my nose, mouth and ears and asks "what's the
problem and I'd better stop that guy from screwing up his running
prowess"
So's on next play, I hook the guy with my right leg in between his left
and right and Mugs goes for forty yards. Meanwhile, the dude I
illegally block is intent on killing me. He's got 6 inches and fifty
pounds on me. I'm thinking I don't want any part of his action. Just
about the time he is about to deck me, Mugs shows up and says "I
wouldn't throw that Punch".
Well, the Dude didn't heed the warning. Mugs dropped the guy cold with
one punch. I'd never seen somebody fall forward with such a thud. I can
hear the impact sound to this day.
While the guy is lying face down. Mugs turns to me and says "I don't
think that turkey is going to bother you the rest of the game". Mugs
was a Championship boxer at the Boat school and could hit like a West
Texas Mule.
Bill Catlett
1369
To: Lieutenant Commander Norman Sidney Levy, US Navy Deceased (1934-1966)
Good morning, Norm. It's Memorial Day 2014, 07:29 Tonkin Gulf time.
Haven't talked with you for a while. That magnificent lady on which we
went through hell together, USS ORISKANY, has slipped away into the
deep and now rests forever in silent waters off the Florida coast.
Recall we shared a 6' by 9' stateroom aboard her during McNamara and
Johnson's ill-fated Rolling Thunder, while our Air Wing 16 suffered the
highest loss rate of any naval aviation unit in the Vietnam conflict.
Three combat deployments, between May '65 and January '68, resulted in
86 aircraft lost from the 64 assigned to us; while 59 of our aviators
were killed and 13 captured or missing from Oriskany's assignment of 74
combat pilots. Our statistical probability of surviving Rolling
Thunder, where the tactics and targets were designated by
combat-illiterate politicians, was less than 30%. The probability of a
combat pilot being an atheist approached zero!
Seems like a good day to make contact again. I've written every year
since I threw that "nickel on the grass" for you. For several years, it
was only a handwritten note ... which I ceremoniously burned to
simulate your being "smoked." With the advent of the internet, I shared
annual emails to you with some of our colleagues. Unfortunately, the
net's now a cesspool of idiocy! Much of it generated by those 16
million draft dodgers who avoided Vietnam to occupy and unionize
America's academia; where they clearly succeeded in "dumbing down" an
entire generation which now controls the heartless soul of a corrupt
"Hollywoodized" media. This will be my last letter. I'm praying Gabriel
will soon fly my wing once more, and I look forward to delivering it to
you personally.
This is the 47th year since I last saw you, sitting on the edge of your
bunk in our stateroom. You remember ... it was the 26th of October 1966
and we were on the midnight-to-noon schedule. There was a wall of
thunderstorms over North Vietnam, with tops to 50,000 feet, but
McNamara's civilian planners kept sending us on "critical" missions all
night. At 04:00 they finally ran out of trucks to bomb, in that
downpour, and we got a little sleep.
Our phone rang at seven; you were scheduled for the Alert Five. I'd
bagged a little more rack time than you, so I said I'd take it. I went
to shave in the restroom around the elevator pit, the one near the
flare locker. The ordnance men were busy putting away the flares.
They'd been taking them out and putting them back all night as
McNamara's "whiz kids" continually changed the targets. I had finished
shaving and started back to our room when the guy on the ship's
loudspeaker screamed: "This is a drill, this is a drill, FIRE, FIRE,
FIRE!" I smelled smoke and looked back at the door that separated the
pilot's quarters from the flare storage locker. Smoke was coming from
underneath.
I ran the last few steps to our room and turned on the light. You sat
up on the edge of your bunk and I shouted: "Norm, this is no
drill. Let's get the hell out of here!" I went down the passage way
around the elevator pit, banging on the sheet metal wall and
shouting: "It's no drill. We're on fire! We're on fire!" I
rounded the corner of that U-shaped passage when the flare locker
exploded. There was a tremendous concussion effect that blew me out of
the passage way and onto the hangar deck. A huge ball of fire was
rolling along the top of the hangar bay.
You and forty-five other guys, mostly Air Wing pilots, didn't make it,
Norm. I'm sorry. Oh, dear God, I am sorry! But we went home together:
Norm Levy, a Jewish boy from Miami, and Dick Schaffert, a Lutheran
cornhusker from Nebraska.
I rode in the economy class of that Flying Tigers 707, along with the
other few surviving pilots. You were in a flag-draped box in the cargo
compartment. Unfortunately, the scum media had publicized the return of
us "Baby Killers," and Lindberg Field was packed with vile
demonstrators enjoying the right to protest. The "right" you died for!
Our wives were waiting in a bus to meet our plane. There was a black
hearse for you. The protestors threw rocks and eggs at our bus and your
hearse; not a policeman in sight. When we finally got off the airport,
they chased us to Fort Rosecrans. They tried interrupting your
graveside service, until your honor guard of three brave young Marines
with rifles convinced them to stay back.
I watched the TV news with my family that night, Norm. Sorry, the only
clips of our homecoming were the "Baby Killer" banners and bombs
exploding in the South Vietnam jungle ... although our operations were
up North, against heavily defended targets, where we were frequently
shot down and captured or killed. It was tough to explain all that to
my four pre-teen children.
You know the rest of the story: The vulgar demonstrators were the
media's heroes. They became the CEO's, who steal from our companies ...
the lawyers, who prey off our misery ... the doctors, whom we can't
afford ... the elected politicians, who break the faith and the
promises.
The only military recognized as "heroes" were the POW's. They finally
came home, not because of any politician's self-aggrandized expertise,
but because there were those of us who kept going back over Hanoi,
again and again ... dodging the SAM's and the flak ... attacking day
and night ... keeping the pressure on ... all by ourselves! Absolutely
no support from anyone! Many of us didn't come home, Norm. You know;
the guys who are up there with you now. But it was our "un-mentioned"
efforts that brought the POW's home. We kept the faith with them, and
with you.
It never really ended. We seemed to go directly from combat into
disabled retirement and poverty, ignored by those whose freedoms we
insured by paying that bloody premium. Our salary, as highly
educated-combat proven Naval officers and fighter pilots, was about the
same as what the current administration bestows as a "minimum" wage
upon the millions of today's low-information, unmotivated, clueless
graduates. Most of them lounge at home on unemployment rolls and feed
off the taxes that we pay on our military retirements; which are 80%
less than what the current All Volunteer Force receives and from which
we have already lost 26% of our buying power to pencil-sharpening
bureaucrats who "adjust" the economic data.
Do you remember, Norm? We got 55 bucks a month for flying combat;
precisely $2.99 for each of the 276 missions I flew off Yankee Station.
Can you believe America's new All Volunteer Force, which recently
fought a war with a casualty rate less than 10% of ours ... and only 1%
of WWII ... , received more than $1,000 a month combat pay from a
guilt-ridden Congress, which trusts paid mercenaries more than
old-fashioned American patriotic courage. The families of those of us
who were killed in Vietnam got $10,000 of life insurance. Today's
survivors get $100,000! Unfortunately, the gutless liberalism of
today's elected officials has created the worst of all possible
situations: Our socially engineered, under-funded, military couldn't
presently fight its way out of a wet Chinese paper lantern!
The politically adjusted report, issued for the 100th Anniversary of
U.S. Naval Aviation, confirmed that we and our brothers who flew in
Korea have been written out of American history. Norm, I only hope that
today's over-paid bureaucratic "dudes" who cook the books, scramble the
facts, and push the propaganda for their political puppet-masters, will
not be able to scrub your name off the Wall. The Wall and our memories
are the only things many of us have left. We hold those memories dear!
We band together in groups like the Crusader Association, which is now
holding its 27th "Last Annual" reunion. Some say the association has to
do with flying a peculiar aircraft, I say it has to do with a peculiar
bunch of guys. We're damned few now! After 5,000 hours flying simulated
and actual combat, and pulling at least 5 g's more than 25,000 times,
those who are still around have ultrasounds resembling haunted houses
on Halloween; with nerve bundles sagging like cobwebs, leaking valves,
and ruptured pipes. We'll all be seeing you shortly, Norm. Put in a
good word for us with the Man. Ask Him to think of us as His
peacemakers, as His children. Have a restful Memorial Day. You earned
it.
Very Respectfully,
Your Roommate Dick (Brown Bear) Schaffert
1370
VF-201 took the F8Hs to Cold Lake , Canada, in August, 1974 for two great weeks of nothing but hassling!
The Canadians were going to put a gun back on the F104s and wanted to get back to air-to-air tactics.
We would launch for an assigned quadrant and had at it until the short
legged interceptors had to head for home plate! These flights were for
.7-.9 hours duration!
They would come in high and fast but could never get a track on us. We
kept them in sight and many times met them head on as they came bad for
one more pass!
I got a hop in the TF-104 and was impressed by very low turbulence on
high speed low level flight out into the hinterlands. F8 cockpit acted
as if on a pendulum and turbulence was much more pronounced.
Great bunch of guys on both sides. Had a ball with no incidents except
for couple of "hicker-nut heads" who got in trouble with the Mounties
over on the Indian reservation!
The Canadians returned the favor and visited us at Navy Dallas. Not much hassling but a lot of partying!
PJ Smith
1371
Re: PJ's "Not much hassling but a lot of partying." The Canucks partied
so hard that one of them stole the best barmaid at the Dallas O'Club
(Emma), took her back to Canada and married her. I had a brief
conversation with her when she visited Dallas later and she said she
hadn't got warm yet.
Willy Carroll
1372
The article by P J Smith re-kindled some very fond memories of flying
against those irascible Canadian devils at Baggotville, Andrews, Cold
Lake and Yuma in their F-5's and us in our F-4's after transitioning to
the F-4B from the F-8K as the first Reserve Command to do so in the
U.S. Armed Forces. The 434 Escadrille had a requirement that you had to
speak French to be a member and they had the greatest leadership
training program I ever saw in that they had 4-plane dets commanded by
Lt's for 6-months tours in Europe and South America at that time. We
had our hands full flying against them no matter the time or location.
They were as evil at the club as they were in the air and always
seeking any advantage available. They were especially adept at relaying
you with "Molson's and "LaBlatts" and writing the schedule to insure
which of us had the early/early. I was fortunate to have flown the
British Lightning with No.11 Squadron and the Brits were great, but the
Canadians are my all time favorites. Both groups were great sticks, but
the Canadians were more Marine-like in their behavior at the club and
in the air. Viva la Canadians!!!!
Ken Langford
1373
I've been looking at early Vietnam ops, and thanks to a USAF source I
got a look at part of a huge Vietnamese study of air-air engagements,
published Over There in the past couple of years. Here's an excerpt:
Interesting that they did not mention how F-8s exploited the vertical.
---
In the skies over Military Region 4, whenever we encountered F-8s our
battles were always very intense and ferocious. The F-8s had good
horizontal maneuverability, and the American carrier pilots had
excellent technical skills. It took experience to be able to fight
F-8s, and you had to maneuver and dogfight well to be able to shoot
down your opponent.
The U.S. Navy F-8Es were quite maneuverable, they were armed with both
missiles and 20mm guns, and they flew in extended, loose formation, so
when a MiG would engage in a turning dogfight with one F-8 other F-8s
would move away and wait for a favorable opportunity to push their
throttles forward and charge in to fire missiles.
---
Their claims were far wide of the mark (among other things, they
thought they bagged Bill Kocar's Corktip during John Nichols' photo
escort) but the insight is intriguing. Much of the exaggeration is due
to the normal confusion of 3-D combat (Rick Wyman had nine other F-8s
with him on 14 Dec 67!) and some is the view through the rosy red prism.
Hanoi Hannah, for instance, claimed that the locals shot down
SIXTY-FIVE THOUSAND Yankee Air Pirates though it's uncertain if that
figure included helos. (Actual fixed-wing in-flight losses to all
causes in 9 years were c. 3,000+). Sorta like the Jap(anese) Navy
claims of sinking dozens of US carriers and battleships plus cats &
dogs: "Where do they GET that many shipyards?"
Sheesh.
No mention of Brown Bear's classic engagement but maybe there's an
opportunity for additional info. IIRC Punchy said on the Dogfights TV
segment, "Those MiG drivers must've gone back to the bar and said
they'd fought King Kong."
Barrett Tillman
1374
AIM-9C was deployed with CVW-10 on the Shang circa 1964. VF-13 fired
them as part of the ORI. Skipper Jim Foster was the father of the Hayes
target which was carried and deployed off a tow F8. Bruce Boland was
part of the project and Jimmie Doggett may add some further
knowledge. "RENO" meant you had separated the Hayes target from
the tow aircraft and were ready to fire. My earlier input on the AIM-9
FOCUS might be of interest. VF-111 Skipper Bob Rasmussen and I fired
them at truck lights in the Cam Pha mine area in 1967 off Oriskany.
Believe Pete Peters fired some also. They were a predecessor for later
technology at China Lake.
V/R Dick Schaffert
1375
I don't know if the AIM-9C ever went into production, but Dick Cavicke,
C.O. of VF-24, and I flew out to the warning area off Pt. Mugu
California one night in 1969 and tried to shoot-down a BQM-34 with
AIM-9Cs. The drone was flying south, not maneuvering, while we were
flying north. We followed the correct procedures, but our radars kept
locking on the altitude line and not the drone. When we tried to wait
until the target was inside the altitude line we only had one or two
seconds to attempt a lock-on. We finally gave up in frustration. Our
four 20MM and AIM-9Bs would have a better chance.
You need to ask Dick for the rest of the story. I was just his wingman.
Capt. Cavicke still lives in La Jolla.
Alan Petersen
1376
Beg to differ with the powers that be but AIM9-Cs were carried on
VF-211 aircraft during the early part of the 1968-69 cruise aboard
Hancock. We were flying F-8H's at the time and unless mistaken, the C's
were originally carried to provide some type of night missile
capability.It was also understood that if you ran into Migs in the
daytime and wanted them to turn away from you ,the first missile you
fired, if loaded,was the AIM9C. The standard load-out at the time was
three AIM9D's and one AIM9C on Y racks. Don't recall any live firings
using the AIM9C's.
After much discussion on the reliability of the A9C's it was decided to
drop them in favor of a full load of AIM9D's.The earliest I have a
record of carrying the AIM9C's was 28 August 1968, 6 days after Hancock
arrived on Yankee Station
Dennis Bell
1377
We had AIM-9C's in VF-211 in 1967. MO Wright as matter of personal
choice carried 3 AIM-9B/D's and one AIM-9C. He blasted one Mig out of
the sky and he had a bead on another one, but didn't get a tone. The
intervalometer had switched automatically to the 9C instead of another
B/D...so no tone. VF-211 bagged 7 Mig-17's on the '66 and '67
cruises...6 with AIM-9B/D's. Tim Hubbard got one with a Zuni. No I
didn't get a cigar...just a lot of Green Weinies!
Rspy, Larry Miller
1378
Re: AIM-9C/VF-211. Taco and Hook are both correct; some of us carried
one -9C in the mix for TARCAP/MiGCAP missions. If I remember correctly,
Mo Wright scored a hit with a -9C on a BQM missilex out of NKX during
the turnaround cycle. I don't remember any mention of the -9C in
Barrett's fine book, but maybe his research turned up some info that he
didn't include.
I believe the squadron claimed two damaged MiGs on that '67 cruise, one
by USAF Capt (later Col) Ron Lord (Sidewinder) and another by Tim
Hubbard (guns?). They may have been kills but couldn't be officially
confirmed.
Cole Pierce
1379
This discussion brings out a lot of old brain cells that may be
interesting to some. I was the AIM-9M project pilot at China Lake in
the late '70's and found out that all the AIM-9C's were at the lab. I
got an intro to the group that was reworking the 9C's, 50 if I remember
correctly, converting them to mini HARM's for carry on AH-1 Cobra's.
They told me the SARAH was way ahead of its time with an inverse
monopulse seeker. The Sparrow did not get an inverse monopulse seeker
until the AIM-7M which was under test at Mugu at that time, 15 years
after the 9C. If my memory serves me right, they told me the weak link
was the tuning circuits in the F-8 due to tube technology, etc. It also
seems like the 9C capability was dropped on the J with the new Motorola
radar.
Hoss Pearson
1380
Tom Ballou asked about the "altitude line". I was surprised that there
is nearly zero information to be found on the Internet. I looked
everywhere, even all the popular porn sites. I don't know if Tom is a
pilot or not [VMAQ-2 80-85], so this may or may not be too basic.
Anyway, here's what I think I remember.
An airborne pulsed radar, like the APQ-94 as many (some? almost none?)
Crusader drivers will so fondly remember, is designed to transmit
strong radar pulses and detect an airborne target by receiving the much
weaker reflected radar energy. The cockpit radar screen displays
azimuth (left and right) and range (vertically). The reflected return
"blip" is shown on the radar screen with range represented such that
the closer the target, the lower it is shown on the screen.
Although the antenna is designed to focus the energy in a narrow main
beam, a certain amount of the transmitted energy escapes via the
unwanted "side lobes". Some of the energy sent out via these side lobes
goes straight down toward the ground. Because the earth is so large it
makes a decent reflector; consequently, a good portion of this side
lobe energy is reflected back up to the radar antenna.
This relatively strong reflection shows up on the screen in a position
representing the range to the earth which, when you think about it, is
obviously equal to the aircraft's altitude. Because the earth is
"everywhere", this radar return is displayed as a thin horizontal line
across the radar scope in all azimuths out to the left and right limits
of the antenna. If, for example, the aircraft is flying at 12,000 feet,
the "altitude line" will be shown at the screen at a range of 12,000
feet, i.e. two miles.
This altitude line is significant because when an airborne target is
"locked on", the APQ-94 uses "range gate tracking". As the range
between target and the intercepting F-8 decreases, at some point the
target's range will equal the altitude of the F-8. In other words, the
target will pass through the altitude line. At that moment the rather
primitive range gate tracking found in the APQ-94 would sometimes "jump
lock" to the altitude line. That is to say, it would stop tracking the
target and lock on to the earth which is obviously a bad thing.
Truth be told, not many pilots cared much about radar in general and
altitude lines in particular back in the day and I reckon they care
less about it now. Nevertheless, now you know what I think I used to
know.
Bob Walters
1381
In prep for the 1967 cruise, 211 evaluated the 9C. We found in did not
function when the target was crossing in a lead collision type
intercept but head on it worked well . We did get a direct hit head-on
against a BQM-34A. Based on that experience I always carried one when
we had dual pylons installed. During my May 1967 mIG engagement I had a
9C on station B and 9D's on C & D. When the MIG flew under me I
changed the arm selector from B to C (I thought) in reality I went from
B to D. After firing the 9D on D and getting a kill, I chased the MIG
Ron Lord had gotten off the A-4s tail with Cannon fire all over eastern
North Vietnam and could not get a tone, never realizing I was still on
Station D with No missile. It wasn't until I went feet wet headed back
to the ship that I realized my stupidity. Tough way to learn a lesson.
Mo Wright
1382
Rumor had it that P.D. Smith put a rail and winder on one of his det
photo birds, maybe in 1967 or so: Taped the wires to the fuselage and
into the cockpit. He also like to lead new guys out to tank at 195
knots: right in the middle of the no engine air cooling range. No MIGS
and few SAMS in my NVN missions, just LOTS of AAA. While we did not
have weapons, we did have speed and 1493 gallons of JP to get around
with.
Will Gray
1383
I enjoyed reading Bob Walters' dissertation on the Altitude Line and
the APQ-94 radar in the F-8E. Don't recall any mention of it in AQF "A"
School, but his theory sounds right IMHO. The side lobe business is
factual but I can't remember whether the lobes were conical about the
antenna axis or simply vertical, horizontal or random position
artifacts. If the latter, it begs the question of whether a significant
roll during lock-on would minimize the false lock-on effect.
The discussion also brought back memories of a question a couple of us
discussed while the birds were out on a strike one day in '65: why were
there not two IR seekers, one on or near each wingtip, to provide range
information for the IR system via differential gimbal angle
triangulation? I know that the IR system was universally disliked by
the pilots but this might have increased its utility, and that without
the altitude line problem present in active radar of those fuzzy analog
days. I suspect that the answer lies in the realms of cost, weight and
reduced reliability.
As Mr. Walters points out, the radar of those days was plagued with
ground clutter problems and it is a wonder that the old gear was of
much use at all, but like Nam being the "only war we had", it was the
"only radar we had". Hopefully it was some help in navigation and
target tracking, albeit with warts.
Randy Kelso
Former AQF2
1384
A side note on John Glenn's aircraft - it now resides on the bottom of
the South China Sea. The Smithsonion Museum was not happy.
Scott Ruby
1385
Unusual event occurred aboard the sunken (fish farm) USS Oriskany off
Pensacola FL last Saturday. A copy of my "Last Letter to Norm Levy"
(KIA roommate) was attached to a frame in the barnacle encrusted Pri
Fly (Control Tower to you land-lubbers). Details are included in the
thank you letter I emailed to the super-patriot who initiated and
executed the event. It's copied below, and photos are attached.
Understand a video will follow.
V/R Dick Schaffert
---
Dear Ms. Susan Snapp:
Your 21 June 2014 dive into the boundless sparkling waters of the Gulf
of Mexico, to the sunken aircraft carrier USS Oriskany, was a
courageous and selfless act to honor a deceased Naval Aviator. Aboard
that proud ship in October 1966, Lieutenant Commander Norm Levy had
given his life in the defense of our Nation and the American way of
life. He was but one of Oriskany's 58 Navy Fighter Pilots who were
killed in action during the Rolling Thunder phase of our air war to
stop the scourge of communism threatening to dominate Southeast Asia.
He was also but one of four of my roommates and wingmen who sacrificed
their lives during those deadly and trying times.
Unfortunately, injuries related to those operations prevented me from
witnessing your courageous visit to Oriskany from Cap'n Olander's N2
Deep boat, where you and Dive Master Dave attached a steel container
enclosing my last annual letter to Norm. The container had been
engraved with our VF-111 Sundowner emblem, an appropriate quote from
High Flight, and a 1966 nickel with reference to the ageless act of
"throwing a nickel on the grass" for a fallen aviator. Your fellow
Siemens' employees (Patricia, Freddie, Pete, and Stephen) had
contributed hours of excellent and dedicated expertise to produce the
container. A volunteer photographic team from Mercedes Benz (Suz
Baujan, et.al.) did an incredible job of recording the memorable event.
I regard all your extensive efforts as extreme acts of patriotism and
love for all those who fought and died on that "Magnificent Lady"
Oriskany. I'm at a loss for words to adequately describe the gratitude
which I, and I'm certain Norm Levy, feel for your kind, considerate,
gracious, and most appreciated actions.
It's been more than 40 years since I finally sailed from Yankee Station
in the Tonkin Gulf, aboard another carrier, to arrive off the southern
California coast, make my last catapult launch, and proudly lead my
squadron home to Naval Air Station Miramar. There were no "cheering
crowds" to greet us, only family and friends from whom we had literally
been separated for years. We, who had cheated death or imprisonment in
the Hanoi Hilton, didn't need any of the Hollwoodized fanfare that now
accompanies the return of "warriors." We had each other; and, as we had
learned during 10,000 days and nights of combat flying and fighting
over North Vietnam, that's all we really needed -- each other! Our duty
was to God, honor and country, but our allegiance in those politically
troubled times was first and foremost to each other! I can truthfully
and factually state, since my return from that combat, I had never
received any actual "act" that recognized my service or the sacrifices
of my roommates and wingmen. The actions of you and your colleagues
have now fulfilled that deficit in my professional life; and I will
take the memory of your kindness to the grave.
Susan, God blessed me with another life after 27 years of carrier
aviation. I documented some of it in my trilogy Loyalty, Betrayal, and
Other Contact Sports. While I was allowed to publish only 3,000 copies
of Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie (2,999 of which were autographed and sold
in 2003), I retained one copy of Charlie to await some unpredictable
event which might occur. Your dive truly meets the criteria which I had
imagined, and I would like to autograph the book and send it to you. I
already know you're a heck of a diver and a firefighter; are there any
other events in your life that you might want me to include in the
autograph? You could find a description of the book on the net. Amazon
has advertised a used "collector's" copy of Charlie for $500; I hope
they're including a certification of insanity for anyone who would buy
that! If you want the book, please send me a snail mail address.
Forever grateful to you and your colleagues, Dick (Brown Bear) Schaffert
1 July 2014
1386
I was on the platform that day (not waving but observing) when Glenn's
famous plane hit the ramp. Ejection off the angle, chute inflation just
above flight deck level, and watched the plane on the port side of the
ship float perfectly level for a minute or so (she didn't want to go
down), and then nosed over into her grave. Pretty spectacular event.
Famous plane, famous man, classic F-8 ramp strike. As I recall the deck
was pitching a bit, and he hit about 2/3-3/4 of the way back from the
nose, and he ejected just before going off the angle.
Bubba Meyers
1387
John Glenn's aircraft had been up at Pt Mugu for sometime, used for
various sundry things. The intent was for it to be transferred to the
Smithsonian upon its decommissioning. However, VFP-63 was getting short
of birds about that time, and it was decided to put it back in the
fleet. About the same time, we went over to D-M and dragged a couple of
birds out of the boneyard. In theory, they were supposed to be capable
of getting them flying within 09 days, but that did not happen. Too bad
a shape I think. They ended up being transported via rail to NARF. One
happened to get lost somewhere in route, and it took a while to find
it. Found it on a siding somewhere.
Scott Ruby
1388
The comments on John Glenn's photo Crusader revived me from my
post-book-publication lethargy to provide some more information. First,
it was not known until I gathered research for our book Blue Moon Over
Cuba: Aerial Reconnaissance during the Cuban Missile Crisis, that
Captain William B. Ecker (CO-VFP-62) acquired this RF-8A (then) for
VFP-62 Cuban Missile Crisis missions in October, 1962. VFP-62 did not
have enough pilots or planes to cover the mission requirements and
along with VMCJ-2's four RF-8s and five pilots, Glenn's RF-8 (144608)
was flown from NATC to Cecil Field to fill the gap. According to Lt.
Cmdr. Tad Riley, it made a number of missions over the missile sites
and then was returned after the crisis was over. This historical
association is another reason it would have been a prime Smithsonian
prize acquisition.
After our book was published, a member of Cdr. Tom Scott's family
contacted me to provide more information for our website's information
on "Project Bullet." Along with that came a Flying Leathernecks article
on the accident that doomed the plane. I sought and received permission
for using material from that article. Your Forum's discussion has
motivated me to do that. Here is a synopsis of that article:
As was mentioned, the RF-8G was obtained by VFP-63 from Davis Monthan
and joined the WESTPAC cruise aboard USS Oriskany (CVA-34). "On
December 13, 1972 Lt Scott launched on a flight over North Vietnam. The
mission was uneventful but upon return to the ship rough seas caused
him to miss the first landing attempt. On the second, his aircraft hit
the rounddown on the belly and the plane bounced up and came down and
tore off the right main landing gear. The plane bounced up back into
the air and came down on the nose gear, where Scott fought to keep it
under control with one hand on the stick and the other ready to pull
the secondary ejection handle between his legs. He had to struggle with
all of his strength to pull the ejection handle and upon ejection got a
good chute and landed in the water.
He was being pulled face down by the chute but managed to free himself.
The rescue helicopter arrived and lowered the rescue crewman. It was
the crewman's first rescue. . . and he made it to Scott. At this point
the crewman realized that he had forgot his personal floatation device.
The inexperienced crewman became fatigued and was actually holding on
to Scott to remain afloat. Unfortunately, the single floatation device
was not sufficient to keep both men on the surface.
With Lt. Scott and the rescuer deciding who was to rescue whom, the
helicopter crew was dealing with their own problems. The intercom
between the pilot and the hoist operator at the door was not working.
The pilot had no idea where to go or even if the downed pilot was
aboard. With great effort they managed to hoist both aboard the chopper.
Post-accident review summarized that the ejection handle, which
normally was to be set to 20-pounds pull, was probably set to 100
pounds, as was the case in several F-8s aboard the Oriskany. So with
the loss of this great aircraft, the discovery of this maintenance
issue may have saved other pilots."
My thanks to the Flying Leathernecks for permission to use excerpts
from their article. As Barrett and Peter Mersky would appreciate: if
only I had had this information before publication of our book. Damn!!
Ken Jack, www.vfp62.com
1389
[Re: "Post-accident review summarized that the ejection handle, which
normally was to be set to 20-pounds pull, was probably set to 100
pounds, as was the case in several F-8s aboard the Oriskany."]
A pilot of a Brand-X F-8C, which suffered battle damage in '67 off the
Bonnie Dick, could barely maintain control and found himself at the 180
in extremis. He tried to eject using the alternate handle, but it
wouldn't budge. He had been a collegiate gymnast, so there's no doubt
he was plenty strong enough. He went back to flying what was left of
his jet and managed to get it aboard.
It was discovered that the handle had to be pulled straight up to stay
within spec. If the pilot pulled it towards him, as would likely be the
case, the effort required increased so much that it was next to
impossible to activate.
Cole Pierce
1390
[Nichols' MiG Kill (MP3)]
Pirate gave me a recording of the mission tape, on a coal-burning,
steam-powered reel to reel cassette. Don't have the machinery to run it
anymore but if anyone cannot access the web site here's the description
from On Yankee Station interspersed with some details I recall:
Feedbag: "You got a MiG behind you Corktip!"
CAG: "Alright, alright settle down. Come up with your callsign."
Feedbag: "This is Feedbag One! Stand by, I'll get him!"
40 seconds of relative silence. A left 90 and right 270. John said he
always thought he'd go vertical on a MiG but once he padlocked it "The
white fangs came out and locked at max-extend." First winder couldn't
quite hack the G. Second Winder detonated close but the 17 kept going,
decelerating. John switched to Guns and hosed the MiG with c. 150
rounds, "scoring 6 to 10 hits." MiG came apart and went in.
Corktip: "Way to go Feedbag!"
Corktip: "Let's go find the other one!" (John said "That Kocar!
He was the most aggressive pilot in the fight and the only one without
guns!"
Corktip: "I'd like to get a picture of him but I didn't see where he fell."
Feedbag: heavy breathing. "It was a MiG-17 and it was burner equipped."
Phil Craven: "Think you can get that bird aboard, John?"
Feedbag: "God damn, CAG, I'll sure try!"
John said the spooks showed him a bio of the MiG driver. IIRC 450 hrs
total time with a couple hundred in type. (John had 2800 in F-8s
at that point.) A Brit researcher compiled a list of NVAF KIAs:
26 year old 1st Lt. The second MiG pilot apparently has never been
identified but the NVAF claimed Corktip shot down.
Barrett Tillman
1391
From the Pensacola News Journal, 30 August 2014.
Former Vietnam War POW Charles Klusmann of Pensacola has an unusual
story: first he was held in supposedly neutral Laos, and he
successfully escaped his captors.
Former combat pilot Charles Klusmann has something in common with James
Garner's Royal Air Force character in the 1963 movie, "The Great
Escape."
Namely, they were both prisoners of war who escaped: Garner as Flight
Lt. Robert Hendley and Klusmann as himself, then a Navy lieutenant
flying from the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk. His real-life escape came
in 1964, a year after Garner's movie debuted.
"It's been 50 years," Klusmann said. "I was very fortunate. I got to
fly again and have a Navy career, and a family." He was a prisoner for
only three months before escaping. "I had to. I was afraid they would
sent me to North Vietnam, and from there maybe to Russia."
According to the POW Network, Klusmann was the first American pilot
taken prisoner in the Vietnam War, and the first to escape. "First in,
first out," Klusmann said.
The National Naval Aviation Museum is preparing a new exhibit about
Klusmann's adventures to open in September, coinciding with National
MIA-POW Recognition Day, traditionally the third Friday in November.
Klusmann, 80, and now a retired Navy Captain living in Pensacola, was
honored earlier this month by the local chapter of the Daedalians
Order, a foundation of former military pilots.
Retired Navy Vice Adm. Jerry Unruh toasted Klusmann at the Daedalians
event, held at the Pensacola Yacht Club: "I will tell you about it
before we raise our glasses. In 1964, Chuck was deployed to the Tonkin
Gulf flying missions from the carrier in his F-8 Crusader into Vietnam."
President Lyndon Johnson ordered the Navy to conduct secret missions
into Laos, where guerrilla forces, the Pathet Lao, were fighting the
Royal Laotian government forces, who were friendly to the United States
even though their country, bordering Vietnam, was officially neutral.
On June 6, 1964, Klusmann's Crusader, launched from the carrier Kitty
Hawk, was hit by ground fire and he parachuted into enemy hands. He was
his squadron's maintenance officer, and as he floated down to the Plain
De Jars, he remembers thinking, "That was our best airplane."
He landed in "the only tree" in sight, and partially dislocated one hip.
In his prison cell he measured the length of the room as 20-something
feet, "so I would figure out how many times I would have to walk across
to go a mile, and put a mark on the wall. And that's all I would do.
Walk. By the time I got out I figured I had gone 263 miles."
While as prisoner, his living conditions were stark, typical of those experienced by other POWs during the Vietnam war.
"I was in a woven bamboo hut, plastered with mud, so you could just
chip away the mud and see outside. I would peek out through the cracks
and see out and get some fresh air."
Although he was provided food, including turnip soup, there wasn't much
of it. In three months, Klusmann said, his weight dropped to about 130
pounds from 170. "I never did like turnips. I still don't."
He hadn't looked in a mirror while in captivity, and didn't see himself
in a full-length mirror for several days after escaping. "I was
shocked. I thought, 'Wow, you're skinny.'"
Unlike many other American pilots who were shot down later, and
eventually repatriated, Klusmann was in solitary confinement for the
first two months and then in a prison camp accompanied by Royal Laotian
Army troops who had been captured by the guerillas.
He had little to do but walk in his cell, and worry. "The thing that
bothers you most is wondering, 'When will I get out of this? Will I get
out of this?'"
Yet Klusmann wasn't subjected to the torture endured by many Americans
who were in the hands of the Vietnamese. "I got a lot of political
lectures. They gave me a lot of literature," printed in English, "about
what good guys they were."
Much of what the Pathet Lao communicated was political indoctrination, Klusmann said: "Our system is better than your system."
The Laotian communists surprised Klusmann with their knowledge about
the American forces."They knew a lot about the chain of command, and
what ship I was on." He learned that his captors had a confidential
document about the U.S. Pacific command "right down to the squadrons."
Klusmann escaped by gradually loosening nails in a section of the
prison fence on the occasional days when he and the Laotian troops were
allowed outside to do their laundry. "It was barbed wire nailed to a
wooden post. When we came back with our laundry we'd hang it up to dry
and wiggle a nail until it got loose enough so it would pull out and
slide back in."
On Aug. 31, 1964, a rainy night at the prison, Klusmann and two Laotian
prisoners opened the fence and ran, unnoticed. "I didn't hear of
anybody me chasing that night. They did later."
Crossing rice paddies and ducking into clumps of tall grass to hide,
pulling numerous leeches off their bodies, the escapees evaded capture
for 3-1/2 days, traveling an estimated 25 miles before they encountered
friendly Laotian forces at an outpost.
Klusmann flew again, but never returned to duty in Southeast Asia. He
retired from the Navy as a Captain in 1980. A grandfather of three, he
retired with Ellen to Pensacola, where he went to flight school 59
years ago, in 1956.
Soon after his captivity, Klusmann led a humanitarian effort for Laos
to raise funds to buy food, clothing and educational supplies, a
gesture that still impresses retired Vice Adm. Unruh: "His contribution
effort sent seven tons of stuff, primarily for the Laotian children."
He describes Klusmann as "a true American hero."
At the Daedalians Order event honoring Klusmann earlier this month, the
Admiral turned to the former POW on the 50th anniversary of his
reclaimed freedom, and said, "Chuck, please lead us in the Pledge of
Allegiance."
Thanks to Jim Ryan
1392
A partial answer to Tom Ballou's query about the F-8 order of battle
for the strike on the Hanoi power plant 19 MAY 67: yes, the F-8E
was configured with hard points on the wing for underwing ordnance, but
they were never used during that cruise. I'm not even sure the
ship carried the racks as Skipper Speer was a fighter pilot first and a
bomber pilot never. We were always clean wing.
With KA-3 and A-4 tankers airborne to top off on ingress and to meet
jets going feet wet that might need some gas, I don't think fuel
conservation was a factor. I wasn't involved in the planning, so
I couldn't say that with any authority, but I don't remember fuel burn
as ever being a factor, F-8E or -C, in our alfa strikes because of the
availability of tankers.
Two weeks later, I logged a 3+ hr mission in the F-8E in a strike on
Kep and the followup ResCAP for Arv Chauncey with tankers orbiting
offshore to keep us in the mix. But that's another story.
Cole Pierce
1393
Agree with Cole (hi buddy, been a long time). I was on that strike in
the C model. (Mine was a one way trip - didn't RTB for six
years.) My memory (sorely lacking) sez we just split the roles
with 211. We had 3 flak suppressors/ 3 mig cap and so did 211. I
carried 4 sidewinders. 4 migs bagged on that hop and I claim a kill,
but no one around to see it. Missile running right up his tailpipe
before disappearing in a cloud.
BTW that day was Ho Chi Minh's birthday. I got even tho., two years later, he died on my birthday.
Bill Metzger
1394
The discussion on the subject of a strike on Hanoi power plant on 19
May 1967 rang a bell in my memory and I looked in my personal diary to
see where I was that day. Turns out I was one of 6 F4's from VF-114 on
a TARCAP mission for an A6 strike on Van Dien supply depot just south
of the airport. Didn't see any Migs, but it was wild. Charlie Plumb's
a/c disappeared in the black smoke of a detonating SAM. Flaming pieces
were all that came out. I could not believe that anybody could have
survived that, but he and Gary Anderson got out relatively unscathed.
My notes say that there were 32 SA-2's fired in the time we were in the
area. Don't know who counted. One came from behind me and I flew
through it's wake turbulence and it detonated mere seconds in front of
me. This happened while I was trying to evade one off my port beam. I
believe we were in there just before the F8s and A4s. Seems as though I
recall hearing their strike in action just prior to my going feet wet.
FYI in case anybody cares anymore.
John Holm
1395
In response to Lee Thornburgh's query, the only feedback I got on the
19 May strike on the Hanoi thermal power plant was that the Walleye
went "right in the window," direct hit.
I don't remember Tom Taylor being in VF-211. If he was an A-4 driver
and TAD for Walleye eval, he was probably in VA-212, Homer Smith's
squadron, which had the in-country T&E job.
Capt Smith was shot down the next day on another Walleye strike and did
not survive long in captivity. I'm sure he got his licks in.
Cole Pierce
1396
regarding your questions on the effectiveness of the Walleye strike on
the Hanoi Power Plant. I was one of the F-8 drivers from VF-24. There
were 12 of us F-8s escorting 2 A-4s from VA-212. Homer Smith was the
212 CO and lead the strike. Mine was a one way trip - took me 6 years
to RTB. I was told Skipper Smith returned the next day (20 May) with
another Walleye strike, was shot down and killed. In one of my earliest
interrogation's, I was shown the Knee Board delivery card for the
walleye. I was shocked as 19 May was the first ever use of the Walleye,
so knew that one of the A-4s had gotten bagged. I claimed ignorance of
course (easy for me), but the gooks somehow knew that the walleye was a
new type of bomb. Didn't know Tom Taylor, but if he was with VF-211 he
was flying an F-8.
Bill Metzger
1397
Reference the discussion of Walleye and effectiveness on Power Plant,
if "hearing the bottom on this strike" might include impressions of
POWs incarcerated in an "annex" of PP during the strikes, let me know.
It was pretty dramatic!! Would be happy to share some impressions.
Orson Swindle
1398
For Lee Thornburgh. I was in VA 76 during the 1967 BHR/CAG-21 combat
evaluation of the Walleye by VA-21. We were dumb bombers in 76 (A4-C's)
and were the flak absorbers for some of the Walleye strikes. The two
strikes on the TPP on July 19 and 21 were carried out by VA-212 A4-E's
with F8-C's ands E's from VF 24/211 as TARCAP/flak suppressors..
The strikes, MiG kills and the CAG-21 losses are covered in detail by Pete Mersky in his forthcoming book about the Crusader.
The walleye introduction and some good live combat deliveries are
documented on a CD produced by China Lake. Film of successful early
strikes was reviewed by higher authority, the Thanh Hoa bridge was hit,
then the PPs were fragged in July. The strike on the 19th was conducted
by VA-212 CO Homer Smith and Mike Cater, plus 16 Crusaders. The PP was
hit, multiple SAMs and MiGs,, the Fighters shot down 4 MiG-17s, and
lost 2 Crusaders, and to quote the narrative on the CD the time over
Hanoi "was the stuff that legends are made of". VA-212 went back on the
21st to finish the job, this time without Homer as he was shot down and
killed on a strike to the Uong Bai power plant on the 20th.
You're close on Tom Taylor from VX-5, he was TAD to the ship with a
team of boffins to keep the early production weapons peaked up. Tom
later was one of the original Bobby-soxers, and during a workup flew
into the ground at Pinecastle during a night simulated SAM evasion
maneuver. A tragic loss. I don't recall if he flew combat with 212 as
CINCPAC had limited the delivery team to 6 pilots, dubbed the
"succulent six", as in they weren't planning on a lot of two way trips.
Effectiveness? Mo bettah than a Bullpup or a cloud of dumb bombers. 2
A4's, 2 weapons, and the walls came tumbling down. Can u imagine Uncle
Ho's cousin tweaking the control panel in the boiler house when this
fat bomb comes through the window and goes BOOM ?
T.R. Swartz
1399
RE: Walleye
On Coral Sea in '67 they had an A-4 w/ Walleye deliver to a coastal
barracks type building in the Samson area in daylight. I flew the RF on
the A-4 until he released and then flew a very loose form on the
Walleye until it impacted the target. All the while taking pics of the
walleye including impact on the target building. Never was quite sure
what that all proved except that it hit the target. Still have copies
of the photos.
Jay Miller
1400
It's time to tune in on the Walleye attacks on the Hanoi TPP. Air Wing
21 on Bonnie Dick (CVA-31) performed 3 strikes on the plant. The first
was on May 17. I don't recall the success rate for the Walleye on that
strike; however, the action did result in 4 MIG kills (check Gunfighter
Page for Kills). The second attack was conducted on May 19. I was on
that raid which resulted in 3 walleyes right on target entering the
window slits on the West Wall of the plant. No MIGs that day and No a/c
losses. the 3rd strike I believe was 2 days later or could have been a
later date No Info on Walleye success, but we did lose 2 more F8s. CDR
Homer Smith was mot lost on a Hanoi strike but later on a walleye
strike on the Boc Yang (spelling?) power plant. He made the fatal error
of aborting his first run and went around for a 2nd try and was shot
down.
Anyone on the Bonnie Dick during that time frame and remembers it differently please chime in.
Mo Wright
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