gatrtalz 13

Gator Tales - Page 13 - 1201 - 1300

Flyoff sucks when you're the junior guy.

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

1201
We were towing DelMar's for VMF 334, The Marine F8 RAG.

4 o'clock in the morning Thorny comes banging on the door of my BOQ room. He confesses the is too drunk to take his scheduled tow, 0500 Brief, 0700 shoot, I would have to do it, so I did. The shoot was in Luke 4, or something like that, start at the east end of the restricted area and tow to the West at 40,000 feet, down sun so the sidewinder could see the flares. I'm at 40,000 feet leveling out to the west with a DelMar on 24,000 feet of wire, yes 24,000 feet, two shooters doing a radar intercept controlled by a Marine at Yuma, I suppose, using height-finder because the search radar is down. Shooter is in a D model, supposedly using his radar to finish the intercept.

He is cleared to fire, calls to light the flares, I switch frequencies to light the flares and switch back to OPs frequency and thump!

As I recall from later experience with VF 191 in Nam, when you get hit by ground fire there's no big bang, just a sore of a click or thump.

The engine quit, the right wing torqued down and I knew I'd been zapped instead of the DelMar. I quick switched the IFF to 77 and when I looked up the bird was pointing straight down and the Mach Meter was right on ONE. That was enough for me, I punched!

It was a very rough ride. I peeked around the curtain and saw blue,brown,blue, I was tumbling. I couldn't breathe cause my O2 had come unplugged. My legs were flailing around because the leg restraints had come loose, my visor was broken. Things were not going well at all. I pulled the curtain aside and looked up to see if there was indeed a stabilizing chute, preparing for a manual separation and got thrown violently out of the seat. You can immagine, I thought, “Nuthin's working, this is the end!”

The curtain had been pulled out of my hand, I looked up again and there was a tiny little parachute up there with two panels ripped out. I couldn't believe that little thing was my personnel chute and was going to save me.

The view was petty good though, I could make out Gila Bend way off in the distance and the desert behind me. I was traveling backwards. Thought I'd turn around, just like they teach you, I pulled on the riser to do a 180 and the chute collapsed, let go of the riser and it billowed out again, I'm still going backwards out into the desert.

The descent ends about 10 feet from the top of a 200 foot arroyo on which I'm tumbling down til I can get on top of my seat pack and ride it the rest of the way to the bottom. At the bottom I take inventory. Flight suit ripped to shreds, multiple cuts and bruises from the ride down the arroyo, can't walk from the ride in the seat.

John Emerson

1202
Blue Moon Over Cuba

Did you ever see the costner flick 13 Days? Not at all sure that costner's wonk character (o'donnell?) ever had the alleged telecon with Cdr. Ecker but lawford jr was egregiously chosen to play him. Walks into the pentagonal unit from Andrews wearing his .38 in a shoulder holster, no torso harness, carrying his hardhat.

Also cast a clown named conway as an outre buffoonish LeMay.

Just finished the part where LeMay got RF-101 drivers invited to the White House for publicity (the Navy not invited) and had Life Magazine do a spread on the Voodoo being the critical piece of gear in the crisis (no mention of the Navy). The author says Navy security over their work was so serious that VFP-62 dets underway on ships were not allowed to know (at least officially) what the home guard had done until well into 1963 because ‘they didn’t have a need to know’.
Pretty typical, I guess

Rick

1203
RE: Blue Moon Over Cuba

A usaf friend who spent his entire career in tac recce (WW II through Korea and VN) said long ago that about half the usaf imagery was lost in processing. Additionally, the Voodoos were fairly new and not fully up & running. Without 'saders we woulda been outta bidness.

All: I’m almost done with ‘Blue Moon Over Cuba’, which is about VFP-62’s effort during the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s a great piece of work and a real love-letter to the F-8 in particular. It’s also a great compilation of the intel and political efforts before and during the crisis as well as a lot of material on what was going on in the Pentagon. Lots of people stories, the squadron CO in particular, the late CDR Ecker. It’s not terribly complementary of the USAF RF-101s out of Shaw, which were supposedly unable to do the mission initially and could only participate after the Navy loaned them their cameras that were set up for very low altitude/high speed work. (the Voodoos being optimized for medium and high altitudes). It’s a good book and worth a look.

Rick

1204
In regards to wing loss this may be pertinent. In 63 we were flying F-8Ds out of Ping tun North.

I lead a four plane strafing hop. On engine run-up and line check the viscous check of the stick seemed slightly loose. I decided to go. Made about three nice runs on targets and on fourth run just about to pull the trigger hit a bit of turbulence. Went violently up and down (PIO) but managed to climb. I was called for low pullout. The wind was knocked out of me and I circled high over targets. On the ground they thought I had radio failure.

I recovered, lead the flight back and made an easy break. Maintenance checked my a/c and said I had leaking viscous damper. That night my shoulders were black and blue. I was lucky and if I hit the target with the ac the AAR would have read target fixation. Or if the wing came off.

PIOs can be violent and so fast that those on ground can't tell. And if it happens and a wing is lost there should be signs of positive and negative stress.

Tom Rochford

1205
Oriskany on Yankee, 1966, Tooter Teague in a VF-111 F8E with a MK-84 on each wing. Ordies make the last second voltage check and the left one drops on the flight deck. Slight delay while they get it off the flight deck and the Ordies change their skivvies, then Tooter wants to taxi onto the cat. Jay Meadows. Bob Pearl, I, and some others are watching the TV in Ready 3. The Boss calls down and says Tooter insists on launching, is it against NATOPS?? Beeper and I are thumbing wildly through the Manual and Jay's telling the Boss we'll get right back to him. Tooter is lining up on the Cat and we still haven't found anything. The Boss is on the intercom that he needs a decision, Tooter is saluting, and we're reading 2,000 words a minute. Then it's all over: Before Tooter gets to the end of the cat track, that Crusader is almost 45 degrees off heading, when the bridle drops it yaws wildly back to the left. Beeper screams NO, NO! Tooter says later he automatically switches off the yaw damper (probably saved his a..). The wild yaws continue right and left but eventually smooth out about a mile in front of the ship. The Boss comes up quietly, "Don't believe we should have done that"! We appreciated him using the word "we", but we could never find anything in ('66) NATOPS about it. Guess we should have recorded that somehow and saved you from your wild PAX River experience. "All count(ed) on 20," right??

V/R Brown Bear

1206
re Beaver Heiss, for the record. For all, check Radm. P.T Gillcrist's fine documentary "Crusader, Last of the Gunfighters", chapter 13. Along with the Bible, this is the other book you should have on your nightstand. (1)

Here are a few additions to Paul's story. Beaver's last flight was as an IUT, as a gunnery tow, I was the banner escort and flight lead for a 4 plane squirrel cage gun flight in the op area east of NZC. We generally made a spacing run and 6-7 live runs out and 6 coming in. Often the birds were light loaded, I remember 8000 lbs, enough for a VFR on deck with 1000-1500 lbs.

The tow launched off Rwy 18, I joined, we proceeded to the area. The pattern set up and hot runs were uneventful, the gunners detached as we headed inbound and I joined up with Beaver for the descent to go feet dry at 2000', then to 1500' and lower for the field entry and drop between the duals on Rwy 27. I recall there were some power lines to avoid, and I had to call Beaver twice to maintain the specified minimum altitude. This error was uncharacteristic for Beaver, he was was a super stick and rarely if ever made mistakes.

We proceeded to the drop, I called it and joined up for a wide port turn and entry to Rwy 36. We briefed for a break at 450 kits, cooler doors open. I was tucked in waiting for him to roll port. Didn't check the airspeed, it was just bumpy enough to require full attention to flying the old F8U-1. Beaver rolled and started to pull, I started my roll and damn near hit his airplane. The wing was gone, his airplane was headed essentially north, I had to bunt and throttle back to avoid him. THE WING WAS GONE. Impossible, he must know it, I looked down at his yellow helmet, head position looked normal, hands on the stick and throttle. I transmitted "Beaver, eject, your wing is gone," Twice. No response. His Crusader continued to decelerate, I whifferdilled, and as Paul's book says, the F8 rocket touched down in the ball park just north of rwy 36. I thought the burner lit or was lit as the airplane touched down tail first and fell into the trees. Others theorized it could have been a compressor stall. My thought was to land and get to the scene ASAP, surely he is OK as it appeared to be a low impact event. Not so.

Dick Oliver did the AAR. The wing was spread out on a hanger deck for analysis, with ripples from the center section to the tips, the strangest thing you've ever seen. Dick burned lots of midnight oil conferring with LTV safety, and the conclusion was that the wing strut incidence lug had inter-granular corrosion, failed, which led to wing separation. The issue of the center of lift being aft of the hinge point, at 450Kts and increasing "G", thereby creating downward pressure and forcing the wing into the fuselage, was discussed at length. The opposite would have put tension on the wing forward of the hinge. I do not recall that being a documented conclusion. PJ Smith may fill in some of the details.

The prevailing theory was, when the wing starts up, the near instantaneous increase in A/A causes a rapid increase in "G", the fuselage flexes down, the hinges fail, the wing detaches, the fuselage flexes up with resultant compression of the spine, to the point of inducing fatal brain damage. TR.

TR Swartz
[The Vought engineers who explained why I shouldn't raise my wing for spin recovery likened the wing separation to the plucking of a guitar string. Even at one g the wing is pulling up on the fuselage with over ten tons of force. The fuselage has bending modes like a guitar string too, with the cockpit at an anti-node, they said -Bull]

1207
The saddest day of my life, was the day we gave up our F-8H's (VC-13 at Navy New Orleans). Later found out that they went to the PI Air Force. We got the A-4L as a replacement. Not complaining, but a long way from the Sader.

The last a/c exchange that hurt occurred several years before when the Israelis opened up on Egypt and we lost our A-4E's to them. We had to keep our very old A-4B/C's. Big letdown, however, we did shoot air to air gunnery with them, since we were a VSF outfit. 10 hits was high, and I claim it. (2 20MM with no barrel stabilizers)

Great discussions re: Guns. The problem with the 20 MM in the F-8 was that it was a sliding breech gun designed in WW II. The equivalent piece in the USAF was a single barrel rotating chamber, electrically fired gun which the Navy didn't buy. These guns were very successful in the F-86H and the F-100. I think they would have been a great help installed in the F-8.

Pat McGirl

1208
In May 1964 the Kitty Hawk was ordered from southern Japanese waters to what became Yankee Station. We were to confirm N. Viet Nam presence in Laos in violation of the Geneva Agreement. After 2 days of a 28 kt. SOA we were in position to launch VFP-63 Det "C" RF-8As but had to wait an additional 2 days for the AF F-101s to arrive from Kadena. When we launched we had an A-3 tanker assigned to us while providing 2 A-4 tankers for the AF aircraft (how is that for a switch). The Voodoos had to abort their flight since they were unable to plug the A-4 tankers. Thereafter we got the A-4s while the Voodoos got the A-3.

A couple on nights later Cloud, Klusman and myself got to fly the first night combat mission in the F-8 using the photo flash cartridges while flying wing on a RA-3. The 6 second delay on the cartridges kept the AAA well behind, since it was the flash that drew the fire.

During the transit one of the escorting DDs was unable to maintain position 45° forward of the bow and slowly drifted back. When directed to maintain position it replied "Roger. Please send 200 oars and a big bass drum". It's replacement had the same problem. The Kitty Hawk could easily outrun it's escorts.

Jerry Kuechmann

1209
I reported to VF-62 in August 1962, after having CDR Joe Moorer save my butt by agreeing to bring me aboard after my initial orders to VF-132 were skazzed because the Squadron and the Air Group, under Gorgeous George Watkins was decommissioned. It was a fortuitous time to be so ordered. I had just been assigned to Howie Bullman, as his nugget wingman when we were ordered to Key West and Howie and I got to chase a couple of MIG-17s back into Santa Clara. We could have put a winder up their tail pipes but Howie asked for clearance to do so and, after about 30 seconds or a minute the GCI controller (Brownstone was their call sign, if memory serves). We were told to RTB and our chance to zap them was over. It was a very exciting moment followed by 12 hours of debriefing.

I recall the VFP-62 flights very well as Cdr. Eckerd went through 174 at the same time as I had. Very nice guy! I don't recall that the VFP-62 guys were charged with the task of taking the film to D.C. I know Pirate Nichols and Dick Oliver and maybe Howie Bullman got to ferry the film to D.C. at max speed. We took the ammo cans out of our F8's and put the film in that hole and off the guys went to Andrew's where I believe a chopper picked it up and took it to the five sided foxhole.

Later, during those thirteen days we were sent to Gitmo to fly out of McCalla Field (4,800 ft. runway) and stand five minute alert for the "Blue Moon" flights by the U-2's. Howie and I were scrambled one morning after a hard night at the O' Club, but that is another story. They did shoot down one of our U-2's with a SAM and the pilot was killed.

Jim Brady

1210
Scotty, you're talking about Jim "Mako" Cannon @ Ocotillo Wells, RTB to El Centro from VF 124. On that day, there was a high pressure area over the Saltin Sea desert and a low pressure area over S.D. As I remember it was about 30.35 In of Hg in desert and about 28.85 at same altitude around NKX. It was CAVU and no indication of excessive turbonewlies. The investigation, along with an eye witness of the wing separation indicated that as Mako crossed the saddle back at Ocotillo Wells (500 kts plus), on a easterly heading, he encountered a vertical sheer of at least 100'/second. The negative 'g' separated the wing, a/c rolled inverted and impacted the desert floor a short distance east of the saddle back. He and I were roommates(Brewner Palms I think) on this ACM/GUN det out of El Centro. After a morning ACM 2v2 we bingo-ed to NKX to swap out our F-8's (phase maint) for two fresh ones. Mako won the toss, so he got the first F-8 which was ready and I'd get the second. That low level route back to El Centro was one most NKX pilots enjoyed returning to El Centro or just out on a tail chase DDA. Vr hoser

Joe Satrapa

PS Sorry bout the "Turbonoulies" or "Turbonewlies"! That's a fire bombing air tanker phrase for piss poor air...gusts, sinkers, sheers close to the ground. It's a take off on Bernoulli's and turbulence. Been fire bombing for 22 yrs. Great fun, good folks and splendid Turbo Trackers.(S-2 retrofits with Garrett 331 motors) Vr hoser

1211
My memory is the same as TR's. Failure of the wing incidence attach point due stress corrosion was the cause of the accident.

That is why I believe that the VF-11 Neal Yeomans wing failure during a gun run was the same. Both wings separated from the front and peeled back totally intact.

From my vantage point at the NE corner of VF-174 hangar I also remember seeing "Beaver's" yellow helmet as if he was still flying the airplane. I was at least 1/4 to 1/2 mile away so that my impression is questionable. I will also always believe that I heard the AB light as the fuselage descended. The Cecil Field main gate was very close by to the athletic field.

I believe that the VI cylinder diameter had been increased in an earlier design change. Once the wing was down a much larger ring locked the wing strut down.

It would appear that in both the cases I observed that wing separation began with on-set of positive high "G" application.

The negative load on the cylinder might apply only in the landing configuration????

Lester Robert Smith, Dick Atkins, Garland Goodwin, Jim Read or other former LTV probably could enlighten us!!

P J Smith

1212
May 1964, shortly after Kitty Hawk arrived on station, she received a contingent of VF-51 airplanes, pilots and maintainers, which were cross-decked from Ticonderoga to provide armed escort for the RF-8s. The det was led by our CO, Jim Stockdale, who pioneered putting wing pylons and Zuni tubes on our -2NEs during our turnaround; much to the chagrin of the JOs I might add. Historical as it may have been, it competed with our air-to-air training (with pylons); and to be the first F-8 squadron to enter into an air-to-ground Compex was a little embarrassing. In our JO eyes, we had sacrificed our fighter-pilot virginity and compromised our image in the community.

Our cross-deck evolution led to the longest at-sea period of my young career (second cruise). We had been at sea around 30 days when we cross-decked. We spent another 30+ days on Kitty Hawk followed by another 30+ days back on Tico, after she relieved Kitty Hawk on station. It was with great joy that this experience was rewarded with a five-day Hong Kong port-of-call. Even better, during our Kitty Hawk stay the Skipper had pinned on my LT tracks. Kowloon provided a most memorable wetting-down venue. And, who knew what lay ahead in August '64 for Kitty Hawk and Ticonderoga?

As it turned out, my longest at-sea experience was still ahead of me; a 9.5 month Indian Ocean, Eisenhower cruise with only a three-day stop in Singapore. Having checked into CARGRU-4 as Air Ops, with F-14 currency, I ended up with 92 Tomcat traps; all day. What a trip.

Bud Collicott

1213
Speaking of UHT's brought to mind an incident that occurred in 1966 off Oriskany. In one of the rare instances when we were on Dixie Station, my flight was loaded with Retarded Snakeye's and headed for the usual FAC directed targets we found down there. After spotting our target and completing our drops my section leader (Tooter Teague) reported a slight anomaly in his control system. After a join up and checking him over I noted that the port side of his UHT was virtually missing. However, he still had pretty good control. We performed a slow flight check enroute to the ship and decided he was OK to recover which he did without incident. Just goes to show you that the UHT was a pretty effective unit. Later investigation showed that the bombs fins were deploying upon release and without the appropriate time delay. Therefore, impacting the control surfaces. Almost everything happened to Tooter!

Bob Pearl

1214
Since I raised the question of our F8 Brothers doing stupid things and living to tell about it, I will submit what is certainly among the Dumbest events of my life.

In 1962 and near the end of the Cuban Missile Crisis, Howie Bullman and I were sent to Gitmo, along with several other VF-62 pilots to stand 5 minute alert to fly Fighter cover for any U2 that became distressed while taking pictures of the missiles installed all over Cuba by the Ruskies!

Howie Bullman was a fine flight leader and Officer and this story is not intended to be derogatory in any way toward him. He may have saved us from the end of the world when he, wisely, decided to ask permission to shoot down the two MIG-17s that we intercepted out of Key West a few weeks earlier. That is also another story.

We were standing alert at McCalla Field on the opposite side of the bay from Leeward Point. The runway was only 4,800 feet long so we had a Marine detachment there to operate a Morest Gear setup that we could engage with our tail hooks on roll out to prevent us overrunning the runway and going over an 80' cliff at the northern end of the runway. Just below that cliff were a squadron of P5M's, so going over the cliff would have been pretty colorful, to say the least.

Howie had a reputation for liking, what he and Pirate Nichols referred to as, "Silver Bullets". They were simply Martini's but the name seemed to give them a certain allure that otherwise would not have precipitated the following event.

Those of our Brothers who flew out of Gitmo know that the sun rises early and hot, there! One day as Howie and I sat in the Ready room in full F8 Regalia, sweating our butts off, I foolishly decided that I could probably out drink Howie with his dad gum Silver Bullets. So I challenged him to a Silver Bullet Drinking contest to be held that evening at the Gitmo O' Club, where, as I recall, they cost about $.10 apiece. Might have been a Quarter!

So when we secured from our watch at McCalla, we showered and put on our Kaki's and went to the club and began the contest. Howie was throwing them down pretty fast and I soon realized that I was in the presence of a greater power. I lost count at 15 and went out front and barfed! Howie never broke stride and kept on going while I conceded the contest and switched to beer. At about 3 or 4 AM. I suddenly realized that Howie and I had the early watch and had to be at McCalla and ready by 8AM. So we wobbled back to the AOQ and fell into our bunk beds.

The next thing I remember was the noise in the bunk room and the announcement that a U2 might be in trouble and Howie and I had to get to McCalla and man our aircraft ASAP!!! I looked at Howie and thought, oh my God, we are still roasted and they want us to fly. I asked Howie if we should own up and cancel but he said, Hell no! Joe Simon, our Skipper at the time, will throw us in hack, we gotta fly!

So we put on our flight suits and got into the jeep that had been sent for us and off to McCalla we went. There was precious little briefing because it was very unclear exactly what the nature of the U2 's difficulty was. Howie just said, We will rendezvous just off the coast and wait for instructions. So out to the waiting F8's we went. The sun was now over the horizon and it was getting hot already. I was sweating like a hog as I climbed into the bird and strapped in. My plane Captain came up on the side of the aircraft to help me strap in and took one look at me and said, Mr. Brady, are you sure you want to do this? "Sure, I said, I'll just breath some 100% oxygen and I will be as good as new in a few minutes.", as I barfed over the starboard side of the bird!!

Well we cranked up and taxied out to the runway and realized that we had to make a hard left turn right after takeoff to avoid going beyond the fence line that separated the good guys from the bad guys. We didn't need to be shot down at 300 feet of altitude after takeoff so a burner hard turn almost like in a break was needed to stay within the boundaries of the base.

We managed that turn OK. And Howie set up a Rendezvous turn to the right after going out to sea to the south a few miles. I set up my usual angle for rendezvous and as I got closer to Howie realized that my closure rate was way too fast. I slid under him and out on his port side. This was when I fully realized how incredibly stupid this was! I was drunk and my senses were not giving my brain accurate information or something like that. Howie wisely clicked the radio and said, just hang out there in a loose deuce, which I was relieved to hear. The U2 must never have had to descend or the trouble passed, because we just orbited overhead for about an hour and then were instructed to return and land. We had briefed that Howie would come in first while I orbited a few miles south until he cleared the morest gear and they were ready for another engagement. We had been instructed by the Marine officer in charge of the Morest that there was a max engaging speed of 126 kts and you had to be on the Center line, that was critical. Howie landed and engaged without trouble and I made my approach on the mirror that had been set up and touched down in the landing area OK.

Then things started to get a bit ragged! I was determined to be under 126 kts and was too focused on airspeed as I rolled out. I took the gear off center to the left and the Crusader decelerated at a much higher rate than the arresting gear on the ship. The plane made a swing to the left and back to the right by the time I was at the end of the run out of the gear. I took my feet off the rudder pedals, thinking of a ship arrestment when you want to drift back so the wire falls off the hook. But this gear was different. I pulled the aircraft backwards much harder than the shipboard arresting gear and I felt myself moving backward at a higher rate than I had experienced before. I hit the left brake because, in my stupor, I thought that would correct the angle at which I was moving. The aircraft reared up and the nose gear came off the runway. The aircraft made a 270 degree counter clockwise rotation and the nose gear came back down and the aircraft stopped. Whoa, that was quite a ride, but I looked up and I was headed directly out the taxiway to the ramp. All I had to do was add power and taxi to my parking spot. As I approached the line, I could see all the plane captains and line crew, jumping up and down and clapping!!! I thought, Jesus did they just see that I almost wrecked this bird and killed myself? As I shut the aircraft down and they put in the chocks, all the plane captains came running over to my plane shouting, "that was the coolest thing that they had ever seen. "How did you do that! You made the aircraft spin like a top and end up heading right out the taxiway???"

Not wishing to dispel their misplaced admiration, I simply said, "it's all in knowing when to hit the brake to get her to spin like that!!! I quietly walked to the Ready Room saying to myself, I will never fly drunk again, and I never did.

Jim Brady

1215
Back to Tooter's single MK-84 cat shot: Test Pilot Bull mentioned the stress found on his F8J after a similar cat shot at PAX. As I recall, we continued to fly Tooter's F8E after his experience. I wonder if it was given to VF-162 after Rass lost that dice roll at the Club, and we (VF-111) transitioned to those aged F8C's? Had the sad thought the other day that maybe it was the one that lost the wing on Lee Prost's strafing run before the '67 cruise. Guess there's no way to check that, other than Tooter's log book (maybe not noted) and Lee's AAR.

Dick Schaffert

1216
During the more then ten years flying in VFP-63, I have uncounted/numerous sorties/hours flying low level in SOCAL. I know pretty much every rock up close and personal within 3-400 miles of Miramar. You always had to be alert for the presence of clear air turbulence. It is always there - no matter what time of year. This is particularly true around such areas as the Grand Canyon, or anywhere, where there are ridges, canyons, etc., that can generated wind shear. Of course we all know that it is illegal to fly the canyon, But -- on occasion, such as getting lost, weather, etc., the canyon made a good route to follow to get home. There had been a number of occasions I ended up with paint off my helmet that ended up on the canopy. There is the "Sierra Roll" condition on the Sierra Madre Mountains. Winds coming fron the west compresses as it climbs the western slope of the range, and boils over on the eastern downslope. More then on aircraft has been ripped apart by this phenomena.

I was flying out of 63 when Jim Cannon was lost -- I had forgotten his name. Inn regard to the comment about the difference between a cat shot and a high speed condition. That is true. However, the point of my comment was that if you are experiencing negative G's that is sufficient enough to pin you against the canopy, your hand is pulled off the stick and you cannot reach either ejection handle. If your harness is unlocked, that increases the probability of being pinned against the canopy.

The comment below [See #3265] about use of aircraft fighting fires is also an excellent example of turbulence in the air. Thermals and such can really stir up the environment. I would bet the pilots are well strapped in to keep from getting bounced around a lot. Hard and dangerous work.

Scott Ruby

1217
Reading in today's blog about swept-wing time and the transition to the F8U reminds me that a TWO-SEAT Crusader appeared on the production line before I joined the Wing Group at Vought. The vertical tail was painted with two hands grasping two control sticks, and it was promptly dubbed the "Masturbator" by workmen on the production line. I have never seen this in print, as it was certainly NOT official. Just thought you might like to know ... (Also, I am not sure the airplane got outside the factory with that paint job after word got around ...) When I wrote about it for [Naval Aviator] Dave Powers' LOGBOOK mag, he deleted that reference! I have another story about the dummies in the Boeing 707 that NASA crash-landed to test fire suppression with jellied fuel, or some such. Will share that with you if you want. I think it is funny, but I am not a PC person.

There was some concern whether the two-seat version of the F8U could match the performance of the standard model because the inlet duct was compromised by a bulge into it to accommodate the aft pilot's rear end. Not to worry, the two-seater was actually faster by a few knots. A crusty older aerodynamicist commented that the longer bird had a better fineness ratio ...

Thanks again for continuing to send me the F8U drivers' blog ... I am enjoying it very much. I also had no idea the F8U had shed so many wings! Bet no one at Vought engineering ever expected THAT!
[Or the fatalities they caused?]

Garland O. Goodwin

1218
Contrary to Tooter's apparently unpleasant asymmetrical cat shot with one MK84, I took one which was pretty much routine. In 1967 onboard Oriskany, VF-162 dropped a lot of bombs including plenty of MK84s. To the F-8 purists out there I'll say that flying around the sky chasing Migs is obviously wonderful, no doubt about that. But when there are zero Migs day after day after day, the idea of flying around the sky getting shot at involves a certain amount of frustration even though it is still a lot of fun. The ability to make your thoughts known by delivering a pair of 2000 pounders helps ease some of that frustration, especially when you can out-bomb half of the attack weenies. Our attitude was that bombing isn't the best thing to do with the Crusader, but if we're gonna' do it, we're gonna' do it well. In fact, we were so accurate that one of the attack squadrons made VF-162 their honorary sister squadron, much to the chagrin of their real sister squadron.

Somebody decided VF-162 should experiment with electric bomb fusing. Remember that funny box full of knobs way at the back of the right console? At the time the A-6 guys were using electric fusing and occasionally their bombs were reportedly exploding 150ms after leaving the aircraft as opposed to 150ms after impact. No surprise that we pilots weren't all that enthusiastic about electric fusing. As the Weapons Systems Officer and, more importantly, the junior pilot in the squadron, I was selected as the lucky fool to make the first mission. I read up on electric fusing the night before and briefed with the ordinance chief before manning up. The load was two Mk84s.

The ordinance guys hooked up their big yellow test box on the port wing and singled for me to select the first test position. Immediately the wing pylon burst into flames, which filled me with total joy.

They downloaded the port side bomb after determining that the mechanical fuse wire solenoids were inoperative because of the fire. The starboard electric fuse was swapped out for a mechanical one and I was good to go.

As the Weapons Systems Officer I already knew that the asymmetrical cat shot limit was 2000 pounds. I simply made sure my gross weight was corrected, I taxied to the cat, and I took what was in essence a normal shot. My distinct remembrance of this event is that I was surprised at the lack of drama. I delayed my clearing turn for two or three seconds to be sure the plane was flying normally, but that was about it. The yaw was minimal and I didn't notice any roll tendency as I cleared the deck. We joined the strike group, flew to the target, delivered our bombs, and returned to the ship. Bottom line: No big deal but it was the last time we experimented with electric fusing.

Bob Walters

1219
I've been astonished at all the wing separation stories. Most of them occurred after my time so I wouldn't have heard about them. After the Sorry Sara robbed me of a leg by use of a parted arresting gear cable, 31 January 1962, the Navy discarded me in June of '63. However, one of the first things I learned about the Crusader was don't go high-g at high-q.

I suspect that the first such separation has not been written up here, I haven't been able to find it. This accident occurred sometime in 1957, probably while I was still a student at TPT at Pax and before I checked out in the F8U-1. A marine major attached to Armament Test Division, I believe, made a flat-hat take-off to the west over Lexington Park, pulled sharply into his climb near the Great Mills High school. The wing parted and was found on the roof of the school. The word went out, no high-dynamic-pressure maneuvering below 10,000 feet, do a normal best-rate-of-climb departure. I wish I knew more about this. Hal Vincent, are you still here? You could probably add more.

Related to this, a Dumb Report: For some reason Jess Taylor and I had reason to depart the Shang for Leeward Point. May have been an accident investigation, he was Maintenance, I was Safety, VF-62, 1960/1. I led and allowed Jess to goad me, against my objections, into a 500 knot break. Landing to the east we had to bend it around to avoid crossing the fence into enemy territory, I guess I leveled for a second or so and then broke right. Not to put him down but Jess landed way behind me. He was the smart one I'm sure. I don't know who we were supposed to impress. It could have turned out to be a lot more people. We all knew better but we did dumb things because we loved it.

As long as on Dumb and Jess. He, Pinky Paige and John Damian (was it VF-32?), and I flew my Schweitzer 1-26A sailplane from Whitehouse Field every weekend we could. Jess and Pinky got their glider check-outs at Empire Test School in the same class, I had known both before then. Before he left Pax for England (not a TPT grad), being envious of the glider program at ETS, I told Pinky I'd never speak to him again if he didn't come back a dedicated glider pilot. To make this story longer, we happened to meet at the Test Pilot School in January 1960. Both visiting, he was back from England, I from the Safety Officer Course at USC. I was just leaving, he arriving. Not a word was said as he crossed the lobby and I was coming down the stairs. Pinky drew out his wallet and handed me his FAI gliding certificate. John, just out of The Blues, had no glider training, so what?

So, I was taking advantage of whatever opportunities came to check out the insides of the Cu-Nims that came our way. We were in the Restricted Area, the Cecil controllers knew we were there and who else would go inside? On consecutive weekends I went first to 10,000 feet and the next to 22,000 feet (1 Jan 1961), talk about turbulence! Smooth as glass on the way up, however. Anyway, later, one day on my own for some reason in a Crusader at 50,000 feet on my way home, I thought it would be interesting to check out the energy in a monster that topped my angels by maybe a couple thousand. Well, all Hell broke loose, my flight instruments went West, no electronics, all alone with no telephone. I learned what I wanted and then some.

All the dart gunnery talk really has surprised me. I thought the idea died in about 1955. It was VF-61, Oceana. We had F6F-6 Cougars. A team from China Lake had covered the whole country it seemed. They came to us from a session with the Marines at Cheery Point. Countless runs and thousands of rounds had not made a mark on their new, bright idea dart, anywhere. The Marines had even flown trail on the thing with F3Ds and not hit it.

My recollection is that the dart was invented in order to have a maneuvering target for hot firing without endangering the tow plane. The catenary curve suspension provided the assumed necessary elevation separation. We were being given the chance to show our stuff. If I recall correctly, Jon (Shaky) Thomas was still Skipper, Laurie Heyworth, Exec, Bill Shawcross still Ops. The first sortie was flown by the four most senior pilots. They came back just like all the others, zilch. I flew section on the second sortie lead by Bud Lynn. On the outbound runs I could see the futility of the normal banner pattern, went through the motions without arming my 20s. For the inbound Bud granted me permission to set up my own pattern. I set up way behind the dart, bored in at practically no deflection and high closure. I released the trigger almost instantly and pulled away from the debris and the swinging dart. When I called that I hit it, Bud thought I had run into it. It was doing the mentioned barrel rolls as I escorted it back. Ten rounds fired, several hits, unstable dart. Lots of debrief. I thought that it was a simple engineering solution to getting hits but need to build one that retains aero integrity, forget it. I got the impression that the whole idea was caput and was surprised to see a dart hanging in the Virginia Air Museum in Richmond a year ago. It was identified as being used by the Virginia Air Guard in the late 60s. Now I read all about it here. I don't remember anything about banner gunnery in the Crusader but a lot of camera qualification. Regardless of squadron efficiency, my VF-62 division did it all supersonic, smoother.

Luft Pfeiff

1220
The F8 wing system was TOUGH in the wing down and locked, droops up condition, otherwise I would be dead in North Vietnam. As a nugget photo pilot on my first cruise and on one of my first flights into heavy defenses I was making a photo run over Haiphong at 3000', lower than I should have been. Sector barrage was the enemy for me over the target, could see/hear the bullets going by though I was doing 700 KIAS in burner. I was afraid to the point of expansion of time, when I got my three frames of photography of the bridge of interest I decided to turn to sea and get away. I put in a good bit of rudder and aileron to get the bird rolling and some backstick to get it turning. I could not see good (tunnel vision) and when I finally saw the G meter it was laid on the stop >10G. Remember the limits were 5.1G rolling and 6.4G max. I was way above that. Lost 200 knots in a 90 degree turn in burner. Wrote the bird up for gross over stress and they found nothing until later that day I reached out to give the old bird a pat on the folded wing as we went up a ladder in the hangar bay to tour the flight deck. The outer wing panel rattled and moved when I grabbed it. It was completely broken inside, so they changed it (had one in supply). That was the only damage. As I said, the F8 wing was TOUGH when down and locked with the droops up... Otherwise I would have been dead at the ripe old age of 22 instead of my 68 years sitting here in my rocker.

Will Gray

1221
The Dart, VF32, 1961, Cecil Field, F8Ds: We used the dart with limited success. The first problem encountered was the dart heating up and catching fire as it was dragged along the runway during launch. That was solved by placing the dart further up the runway near the tow plane and curling the tow cable so that there was very little dragging. It didn’t weigh very much.

As a nugget in the squadron I was #4 in a shooting flight at the dart. #1 was skipper Jack Chistiansen (He had some kills in WWII), #2 Gene Murray, #3 Stan Smith. I believe Dwight Timm was the tow.

Skipper rolled in on his pass and shot pieces off the dart. Ditto for #2 and 3. I could hardly wait for my turn. It looked like fun. They made it look so easy. Finally it was my turn. As I rolled in on the dart it disintegrated before I could fire.
And that was my one and only experience with the Dart.

High speed Breaks: Before the FAA initiated APC (Area Positive Control, which meant 250 knots below 10,000’) the usual speed into the Break at Cecil was about 360 knots. But higher Break speeds were frequent, 500-550 knots. Of course, the Droops had to be in above 550. The problem with high speed and breaking over the numbers was getting slowed down. Going to midfield and then initiating the Break made it much easier to dissipate the speed.

Hall Martin

1222
Checked my logbook; I first flew the TF-8 (then called the F8U-1T) March 12, 1962. John Pope and I were stationed at PaxRix and assigned to perform service test flights on the TF-8. We flew 3 flights taking turns flying in the front and rear cockpit. We found that it had all of the good features of a single seat F8. The biggest advantage was the drag parachute. It really made landing a lot easier and probably would have saved a lot of tail pipes. Also, the rear c/p was set slightly higher than the front, that offered good visibility (very helpful for an instructor pilot). Too bad they built only one.

Ray Stewart

1223
April 66 I was frag writer for 1st Marine Air Wing we had a shortage of bombs. We were loading F4s and A4s with short loads of 220 pound frag bombs and the F8 with two 2000 pound WWII bombs. During that period the F8 was leader in tonnage. At the same time we received a cable asking if we had lost any sorties due to lack of ordnance. I drafted a cable saying that "no we had not lost any sorties but we were short loading aircraft."

We then received another cable saying "yes or no response required".

In late May we received tons and tons of bombs. I was directed to go to G2 and find a place to "get rid of the bombs". My great staff contribution to the war were the seven specified strike zones. Which meant nothing was there. We would load aircraft full up and they would be assigned to dump the bombs in one of the areas.

In VMF(aw) 235 we started having wing fuel leaks by landing with the 2000 pounders. We switched to greasing the plane on and stopped the leaks. We carried 2000 pounders on most of the missions during the period of Feb 1966 to Aug of 66, as I recall.

Ron Foreman

1224
Like most Gator drivers, I can testify how sensitive the F-8 was in pitch at very high q.

John "Black Mac" McDonald was not my regular flight leader but we did a lot of flying together on the '67 Oriskany cruise. We both loved combat flying; however, his wingman and my flight leader ... well ... let's say they used tighter tolerances than Black Mac and I did when it came to the pre-flight and post-start checks. As a consequence, I found myself flying his wing quite frequently, especially in Indian Country.

The ship was waiting for us to trap last one day and we were hustling back to the break just barely subsonic, droops up, oil cooler door open, low, and close aboard so the gawkers on the 0-7 level could get a good look. I was tucked in as close as I dared.

Black Mac removed his mask, looked over at me, and gave me his famous James Coburn grin. I knew something was coming, but I didn't know what. Just then he gave his stick a sharp pulse the result of which was a tiny deviation in pitch not noticeable from the flight deck. But at that airspeed, my reaction to his slight wiggle produced a huge "J. C. Maneuver".

Bang-Bang-Bang, my head repeatedly smashed into the canopy as I bounced violently up and down three or four times in half as many seconds. The event was impressive enough that I remember it well 45 years later.

I regained control still tucked in close, but stabilized about 20 feet higher than normal. Of course, I looked like an idiot and he looked nice and smooth, which was just the effect Mac was aiming for.

Laughing like Hell, Mac executed a snappy, max g break at the bow. I managed to stay on his wing, more or less, until abeam the LSO platform, still going pretty fast. At least we were low. To my surprise, Mac turned in and I'm guessing he flew most of the rest of the pass at idle. I extended a bit off the 180 and got a grade of "Fair, long in the groove".

Bob Walters

1225
Discussion of airspeed in break reminds me of a story. Sometime in the sixties. Wee Prost and I (Ltjg's) were given a carte blanche cross country to get max flight hours on our F-8's. We did so and burned max gas on legs that took us from Oceana to Cecil to P'cola to Dallas to Yuma to Miramar to Moffet to Ogden to Chicago to Pax and back to Oceana. Seems we found every ACM hole in the country.

While holding short for a night section takeoff at P'cola in rain and 700 overcast weather, we hear Navy One and Two check-in at the initial for the break. We hear "Burner,Burner,Speed Brake,Navy One and Two Abeam All down Full Stop, and Navy One and Two Ball". Then we see a beautiful section landing on a historically slick wet runway. From then on, it was an F-8 oil cooler door open, burner, fan break all across the country.

Wee always lead as he had seniority. Who said their wasn't rank consciousness among JG's. Wee was a great stick and a tragic loss.

Bill Catlett

1226
The interesting high speed/high Q wing failures & field break stories induced a memory jog of bleeding down PC 1 & 2 hydraulics. I recall a nugget strike escort mission somewhere in NVM, flying a close combat spread @ a matched altitude with my lead. We were very low, below 500 AGL and very fast, 600 IAS plus, I followed the lead with a pull up less than 10 degrees then a roll inverted to pull down to a shallow dive less than 10 degrees. I recall sighting out the front windscreen several long barrel AAA guns firing @ the strike group well above us. Without much time for a gun sight adjustment I just pulled the trigger spraying 20 mm in the vicinity of the AAA, then an immediate pull to avoid ground impact. Then the real excitement started as the small arms tracers were zipping past the canopy. I then started jinking, as I was moving the stick very rapidly in every direction the stick went stiff, it would not move & the jet would not respond & was ballistic. My first thought was I had been hit by the small arms, looking in the cockpit I noted 0 PSI on both PC gauges then a rapid recovery to a normal pressure & on to an uneventful CV recovery. There was a small arm hit on one of my sidewinders. Bottom line in my excitement I bled the PC's down to 0. Anyone else with this experience?

Bill Bertsch

1227
I read with avid interest the stories by F-8 Navy/Marine aviators on this site. They made me think of which event I would consider the greatest of all single aerial feats by an F-8 pilot. I thought of the ones about which I knew and my thoughts kept coming back to one: the shoot down of a MIG 17 with a Zuni rocket by T. R. Schwartz. I know he was flying an A-4 but I believe the airframe had nothing to do with the event, it may have even made it more difficult.

I'm sure T. R. was born with above average eye/hand coordination as were many F-8 pilots. He had a great reputation in the F-8 community before he transitioned to the A-4, and I believe it was the skills he learned flying the F-8 that accounted for his achievement of this extraordinary event.

I have never had the pleasure of hearing the details of the event, and I hope that T. R. can be prevailed upon to recount the story on this site including his thoughts before and during the shoot down.

V/R,
Tony Nargi

1228
I never experienced a PIO in pitch, but photo pilots when making abrupt lineup moves at high speed occasionally caused PIO in roll: it would ring your bell and on occasion crack your helmet, crack the canopy and one death was attributed to a pilot being knocked out by the impacts in the cockpit. There was a rate of G onset for the F8 that was often ignored. It was 1.5G per second increase, but no limits in roll or rudder application as I recall. Lots of us exceeded limitations of the Crusader to survive or accomplish the mission.

Will Gray

1229
I had the PC 1 & 2 go to zero at Yuma landing in the "J" in a no wind situation as previously related by Bill Bertsch. Followed Jim Davis on landing and caught his jet wash as I was approaching the end of the runway --- turned the a/c every way but loose --- I wiped out the cockpit with stick and rudder trying to keep it level when the controls froze and I fell to the runway landing on the port ldg. gear and port wing tip at full power heading off the rwy at a 30 degree angle went into the greatest half inch in Naval Aviation (afterburner) & got airborne. Tower asked if I was having trouble to which I replied I didn't know yet. Nothing in the handbook about such a situation, and just bent the cap on the wing tip with scratches.

Ray Donnelly

1230
Ref Bill Bertsch's comment - yep! First time over Thanh Hoa as, part of the TARCAP, in May '72, trying to jink around, while still staying above/behind the strike group and keep my lead in sight...I felt that I wasn't getting much response from my trusty steed, pulled my head into the cockpit to see what that light was that I'd seen out of the corner of my eye - OOPS -"OIL/HYD" (I think that's what it said, right?) - and both PC's were flopping between 0-500 psi. I also noticed that there had been something of a blur in the cockpit, as I was stirring things up with the stick at a rate that the poor machine was never going to be able to respond to, and I was pushing hydraulic fluid out to every extremity. Right hand on the glareshield for a moment, 2-3 deep breaths, and all was well again.

I wish I could say this was all triggered by "flak so thick you could walk on it" (quote attributable to Ed Brown)...but I'm not so sure that was the case. That day at least almost everything seemed to be focused on the Scooters, with the stray rounds coming up our way...

Kevin Dwyer

1231
VF-661 had been recalled to active duty in January, 1968, and we were flying F-8A's out of Andrews. Jim Cooper and I were in R-4006, the Patuxent restricted area, practicing turns in the combat spread formation. We were probably about 15000 feet at 350 - 400 knots with Jim on the right side when he called,"Break Left, somebody's closing at your six". I jammed the stick left, pulled back hard and entered the first departure of my 200 hours or so in the F-8. I recall vividly a momentary pause (I called it a quiver) followed by a violent snap roll to the right.

I turned loose of everything, and the aircraft steadied up on virtually the same heading but about 100 knots slower. And what to my wondering eyes should appear, but the two seat Crusader sliding by in front of me. I added power and joined on his left wing, got a thumbs up from one of the two guys in the cockpit, then broke away before my shaking knees did damage to the rudder pedals.

I can't recall what Jim Cooper said at the debrief about the maneuver, but we did discuss the strange F-8. We figured we would see it again in R-4006, but we never did, and it never occurred to us to drive down to Pax River and have a look at it.

I became very diligent in using the rudder and did not surprise myself that way again, but I observed a couple of impressive departures, not the least of which was Buzzard Jewell going by backwards when I was towing the banner in the 20000' pattern.

Adverse yaw in the F-8 and the similar characteristics exhibited by the F-100s which were flying out of the hangar next door had been briefed in the ground school phase, but I don't recall that the term "departure" was part of the lexicon at the time. However, when I did eventually hear the term, I didn't need to have it described...

Leaky Robert Hoch

1232
Reading about Tooter Teague losing half his UHT reminded me of a MiG engagement in the summer of '67. I believe it was Bob Kirkwood, Brand X, who took a Sidewinder meant for one of the bad guys. He ended up with some shrapnel in the tail pipe and lost most of the starboard UHT. Photo attached.

Cole Pierce

1233
Since we are talking about bouncing heads off canopies and VSH breaks. After I shot myself in the leg while in the RAG in Oct 70, spent 3 months in the hospital, and then a year later got back on flight duty as a "cripple" with a brace on my flight boot, the RAG put me through several "get back in the saddle" hops at VF-126, before they let me strap on the gator again. This was some VFR "get reacquainted with flying" again followed by several intense instrument flights. My last hop there was with a "pissed off at the world" plowback. And you know, there were screamer instructors, who thought that it was good to introduce some stress into the environment to improve one's training, and then there were screamers who just freakin liked to scream. That's what this guy was. I was actually really doing well on the hop. If nothing else in the Crusader, I could shoot the guns and fly instruments (had a "top 2% in instruments" letter from the Nav). So he's screaming his brains out about some pretty minor and petty things. So anyway after a very intense instrument flight, towards the end of the hop he said we were going to go in VFR, and asked if I wanted to fly the break. I was surprised at that, and thought he must have needed to get on the ground quicker for some reason, but I was really surprised he was going to let me do it. So I said "hell yes." I hit the IP and start pushing up the power on that scooter, and hit the numbers at about 525. I'm in the back obviously, and as we hit the numbers I said over the intercom,"You got that traffic at 3:00?" As I saw him look to the right, I slammed the stick over, and put 6.4 on that scooter. I could visually see, and audibly hear his faceplate banging off the canopy, which as you recall is very close in the A-4, as I buried him in his seat. I said to myself, "that's the way a fighter pilot does it, Jack!" My grades on that hop somehow did not turn out to be very good, but by gosh I SURE GOT THAT SCREAMER!!!

Chip/Track/Half Track/Wide Track/Bubba Meyers

1234
Not on the order of going thru carrier props, but here goes:

Midnight, DaNang, GCA, monsoon rain, mid-field Morest is planned, cleared to land, ready deck, hydroplaning, 90 Kt., F-4 at 12:30/200' just clearing the gear, full left stick, Morest not retracted, hook-skip, abort gear at taxi speed, legs shaking, refuel, shut down, post flight shows 8" oval piece of skin missing on bottom of droop 8' in from tip. Later at joint squadron party, curled up F-4 wingtip, painted gold, mounted on a block of wood, big laughs.

Late at night, DMZ, TPQ, 18,000', 220Kt, writing co-ordinates and support info, out to the left a red and green light rapidly diverging at same altitude, pull up, 100% and burner, staggering, engine winds up and lights, light from burner shows very shocked look on faces of pilot and co-pilot in cockpit of C-130, probably almost as shocked as the guys in the F-4.

John Becker

1235
Randy Kelso, AQF2 sends:

Re Willy Carroll's question about usage of the AN/AAS-15 Infrared Detecting Set on the F-8D and some subsequent models: the short answer is "no", at least as far as I have been able to determine. My total contribution to the war effort in Nam was in carrying out the order to "get the IR up in all the birds" for our squadron (VF-154) during the '65 Coral Maru cruise. I think we did succeed, with much effort, seeing that the system was routinely neglected virtually throughout the fleet and even the replacement aircraft arrived with dead IR systems. I would dutifully fix them, juice up the nitrogen bottles, inform the pilots that the system was now functional and generally found that nobody selected "IR" during any hop. Scuttlebutt had it that the system was considered to be virtually useless without range information but I never knew for sure since we were never told. Sure, it could lock on and track a target (I think it was Bob Pearl who mentioned on this forum his tracking an F-4 in burner at 30 miles with IR) but the pilot had no indication to alert him to his proximity to that target. That was the radar's job, but the two were mutually exclusive. If I were a pilot I would have liked to know whether that target is many miles away or a few yards away (yikes!), but the IR had no way to convey that information. I can think of only two scenarios which might have warranted use of the IR system: (1) the desire to track a target passively, maybe in an ECM environment, and (2) a radar system failure which left the IR functional. The utility of the IR system in the second scenario is questionable, though, given the fact that the IR used a C-scan display and is little better than flying blind. On the positive side, the AAS-15 was the only solid-state equipment on the F-8D as far as I know, and was a major step in the acceptance of solid-state avionics gear in industry. The radio, nav gear and radar all used vacuum tube technology, but the IR system was (wow!) transistorized. That was a challenge for us fixers because we had studied vacuum tubes intensively in "A" school but had scant training on semiconductors (they were generally considered a passing fad, I think). But now we've come a long way, baby! As you know, today's aircraft couldn't even fly without the millions of microscopic transistors embedded in their chips.

Randy Kelso

1236
I am sure there will be plenty of responses to Willy's inquiry about the IR tracking system dome just below the front of the front windscreen in the F8D and E.

That was a system, cooled by liquid nitrogen, that was designed to track IR targets without radar. I guess the idea was that you could use it to complete an intercept if you were being radar jammed by the bad guys.

We had it in our brand new F8E's in VF-62 from '63 until I left the squadron in '65. We tried it several times and it was only marginally useful as I recall. Maybe Ron Knott or Stew Seaman or Tom Domville or T.R. have more info on it. By 1965 we had pretty much stopped using it, again, as I recall.

Jim Brady

1237
In all the talk about section takeoffs, I made an unofficial and un-briefed one on a dark and rainy morning at Danang AB. It was 0230h, Capt John Neill was the flight lead, and we were headed north to the Trail with a full load of ordnance. John lit burner, and by SOP I was supposed to wait for at least one minute before lighting my burner and rolling. I looked at the crappy WX and said screw it. I lit my burner as soon as John's huge burner flame issued from the tail of his F8E. I joined immediately, was onboard at liftoff at the end of the runway, we climbed out through the crud, and at about 15K, John asked for my position. I replied: check your wing. Nothing else was ever said. John was a great flight lead, and I tried to be, as the junior pilot in the squadron (VMF(AW)-235), the best wingman.

I can sympathize with Bubba Meyers' problem with screamers. I was so very fortunate as to have made it through the Training Command and through my deployment with an operational squadron without ever encountering a screamer. As somewhat of a combative hothead, that would probably not have been good for my aviation career had I had the misfortune to have to deal with a screamer.

Respectfully,
Al Nease

1238
I read Nargis' story of T.R. shooting down a Mig 17 w/ Zunis from an A-4, but haven't seen anything on Tim Hubbard who bagged a Mig 17 with Zunis in 1967. Tim was Adm Stockdales Cag LSO at the time, and on a flack suppression mission when he became tangled up with the Mig. After emptying his guns he used what he had left. I asked Tim what mil setting he used and he said " I put him between the rudder pedals and fired all 8 Zunis. When I rolled back to look the pilot had ejected. I don't know if I hit him or scared him to death." After the line period on the fly-off to Cubi, Tim made a supersonic pass over the O-Club breaking a plate glass window. I think he spent a few inport periods on the ship for that. Tims' promotion to CDR was also delayed until a few months before mandatory retirement in for O 4s when ADM Stockdale (Released from Hanoi Prison) was head of the CDR promotion Board in 1975.There was a great happy hour at the NKX O-club that afternoon. Shit hot Tim. I hope you're still with us.

Dave Woltz (Bluto)

1239
I know not how others treated the IR dome but in 1968 VF-53 did it this way. Nobody I knew ever used the IR system. Skipper Paul Gilchrist liked to innovate and gave us permission to "innovate". The problem came up when using the gun sight as a bomb sight. As I recall we used 105 mils for Mk-80 series bombs and more, like 135 for CBU-24s. The IR dome interfered with these mil settings. We had drilled holes in the gun sight template to make it easier to acquire the desired mil lead in a 60 deg 500 knot 5000 ft release and the 100+ mil holes were hidden behind the IR dome. I don't recall getting permission from NavAir but maybe we did. Our Chief bb-stacker suggested we hacksaw the dome as flush as we could get and epoxy an aluminum plate over the hole. Spray with black paint and it looked mil-spec. Opened up the lower mil settings and added 1.67 knots high-end speed. About the same time we were struggling with the night max come aboard weight (F-8E with pylons hung). As I recall max left us with about 800 pounds. Even unloading 20mm helped little. We fired off a message to NavAir pleading the case for raising the speed [weight?] 1000 pounds (most of us had done this anyway. Another advantage of being single seat.). Calm seas in the Gulf and pilots with boku night currency. Huge surprise NavAir approved and sent out a message raising the max come aboard weight by 1000 pounds. Try doing something like that today.

Bob Heisner

1240
Had to reply to Bluto's (Dave Woltz) comment on Tim Hubbard. I first met Tim at NAS Beeville in 1987 when I was a nugget research pilot at NASA Johnson Space Center and an orphan RF-8 pilot after VFP-206 disestablished. I affiliated with the Reserves flying TA-4s at Kingsville, and Tim was my first Simulator instructor. Seeing the Crusader patch on my flight suit, we instantly hit it off. What a great guy and great instructor! Having read "Mig Master," I knew Tim was a Mig Killer, and though pretty modest about it, he graciously agreed to join a group of NASA pilots for dinner at the Beeville O'Club to tell us his story. We took an alpha strike of NASA T-38s down to Beeville a few weeks later and had a great time listening to Tim and his fabulous Zuni shootdown tale. He even produced a recording from Red Crown of the event as I recall. Base Ops was mildly amused at all of these NASA T-38s coming down to see Tim. A side note on Bluto. I met Bluto when I was a student in the RAG in 1975, and he was an IP and LSO. One of a great group of IPs at the time. While jogging on the beach at Del Mar, he cut his toe on what turned out to be the ECM canoe, buried in the sand, from Jim Waggoner's F-8J that crashed off San Clemente during winter night FCLPs the year before. That was the only piece of Wags' airplane that was ever recovered. Wags' rescue is another great story for another time. Bluto, sadly, I believe Tim cashed in 15 years ago or so. He certainly was SH! Tim, if I'm wrong, let's have dinner again!!

Moon Rivers

1241
I was the Flight Leader and Tim Hubbard was my wingman as flak suppressor's on his "Mig Mission". He went after the Mig, as I rolled in to suppress. He didn't empty his guns...his guns jammed. That's when he went to zunis. He told me, he was tracking the Mig in the windscreen, but knew he had to "lead" him more. He pulled to where the radar scope was, losing sight of the Mig He fired two zunis that went aft of the Mig, and he then did what Bluto said with the rest of his zunis. In the meantime, I was going down the Red River @ 50 feet @ 600kts heading out, while Tim was getting his hero badge. From then on I had to ask permission to enter our room aboard Bonnie Dick. Such is life.

God Bless Tim, he is no longer with us, as most of you know.

Larry Miller, alias Hook.

1242
I flew the IR system on many "fresh off the assembly line" birds at LTV in mid 60s. I remember that I could track another F8 at 15 miles easily and I believe there were some times the range was at 25 miles.

Why NAVAIR bought the system, I do not recall??

It would obviously be useful if the radar was inoperative or use of same was not allowed under operating conditions.

And it did require extra maintenance hours which could not be afforded ... so it was "OBSOLETED" by the users!!

PJ Smith

1243
VF-103 during USS Forrestal operations off Gitmo in 1959--CO, Frank Stevens, was giving a serious, no-shit, safety-considerations brief for landings at Leeward Point--stressing possible arresting gear use, especially when landing toward the cliff, with its considerable drop into the Caribbean Sea. "Any questions?" asked the skipper. My fellow ensign roommate, Jimmy Joe Harmon (from Conway, Arkansas), raised his hand. "Skipper, we're already in deep-shit--too slow to fly, too low to eject, and about to plunge into the garbage dump, where every shark alive gathers to feed. Why in the world would we want to drag all that chain over on top of us?" By God, those were the days!

Jerry Houston

1244
I read with interest the missives from Bubba Meyers and Al Nease re: screamers. I was unfortunate in 1965 to be assigned to same squadron at NAS Meridian as John McCain; he was an instructor and I was a student. John McCain wrote the book on how to a hard ass and screamer. You knew it was going to be a bad day when your name was written beside John McCain's. I understand from those in Washington DC today that he has changed little over the years.

The instructor/screamer Bubba Meyers referred to in VF-126 was well known to the other instructors in the squadron...I was an instructor in VF-126 at that time. His being assigned to and remaining in VF-126 was politically directed from Washington and there was nothing the squadron could do about it.

Ron Lambe

1245
Regarding the fantastic war stories being contributed to this site, and some of the F8 icons and especially Tim Hubbard. Tim was one our CAG 2 LSO's and a section leader (Black Three) in Ed Hickeys division in VF-24 (Ray Raehn, CO, Jim Stockdale, XO) at NAS Alameda and the cruise aboard USS Midway, 1959-60. Not one to talk much about his achievements, few knew he was a national fly casting champion. In addition to his attention to detail, if you ever took a look at his wrists you could possibly see why, they were huge.

Admiral Stockdale upon his return from Viet Nam, served on the commander selection board when Tim was up for commander. While Tim possessed all of the qualities we need and admire in a true warrior, at that time they apparently weren't necessarily those that selection boards were looking for. According to Stockdale, when Tim's fitRep record was flashed up on the screen it did not present a pretty case for promotion based upon preliminary voting. Stockdale then stood up and said he understood the concerns and did not want to unduly influence the board, but he said it was important to know that when he was CAG, there was a very critical mission to be performed and for all those flying it to safely return. While CAG had several outstanding squadron CO's from the air group he could choose to lead this flight, he chose Tim Hubbard because of Tim's superior warrior talents. The mission was very successful. After those remarks, the scores immediately flashed to promote.

It is a tribute to both of them that this well deserved promotion occurred. May they both RIP.

Hank Smith

1246
One more about Tim. After his promotion to CDR he took orders to Beeville as an instructor until he retired. I believe he or his wife was from that area. The rest of the story was related to me from Fast Eddie Schrump at one of the reunions. He was flying for Saudia Airlines and was in the States on vacation visiting his wife's parents in Beeville. They went to the movie Topgun at the local theater. He saw all these young kids with Navy flight jackets with patches on them. He thought how young the students are now, when in fact they were High School Tom Cruise groopies. He saw an elderly white haired gentleman standing in line for tickets in front of him and some of the rowdy kids were pushing and shoving and cut in front of this gentleman. Eddie and Sue remarked how rude the boys were, still thinking they were Flight Students. When they were seated in the theater the same white haired gentleman was and his wife were seating themselves in front the Schrumps when Eddie realized the man was Tim Hubbard. He thought of all the bluster of these jerk kids, if they only knew this man IS TOPGUN. I knew Tim Hubbard, I worked with Tim HUbbard. Tom Cruise YOU ARE NO TIM HUBBARD. Bluto

Dave Woltz

1247
Tim Hubbard came up thru the ranks in the navy and his dad was a retired Chief nick named after his favorite bourbon. Tim would have also made a great Marine Master Sargent as he did a great fighter pilot. I first remember Tim from when we were in formation, standing at attention, during primary flight training in Pensacola. Tim let out a loud sneeze and it came out "HORSE SHIT" loud and clear. The Jar Heads went crazy trying to find the culprit, but no one said a word and we all did push-ups for Tim. The next time we crossed paths was while we were in flight school in advanced at Memphis. I was out back of the barracks practicing fly casting and this loud voice from the second floor boomed, maybe I can give you some help. Down he came from the second deck and gave me clinic on Fly casting. I was speechless! I later found out he had set a worlds record in fly casting and he was listed in Who's Who. Before joining the Navy Tim was in a fly casting tournament in San Diego. He was practicing and the tournament director stopped by with another individual who was also a left hander as was Tim. The left hander ask Tim if he could try his rod, and did so. The left hander thanked Tim and said, nice rod, and left. Later, the left hander returned with the tournament director and asked Tim if he would sell him his Fly rod. In the signature Tim Hubbard fashion, he hollered, "Get The Hell Out Of Here And Leave Me Alone. The red faced Tournament Director and the left hander left. The tournament director came back later and ask Tim if knew who the left hander was. Tim said no, and I don't give a shit. The director said it was Ted Williams, the great baseball player. A side Note, Williams also flew the F 86 in Korea.

The fly casting lesson was the start of a lifelong friendship between Tim and myself. We Bought a house together in Sunnyvale near Moffett Field and were both nuggets in VF 211 With Paul Pugh being promoted to GAG and Red Dawg Davis to Skipper and Jim Stockdale was Maintenance Officer. Ev Southwick and Dick Cavicke were some of the other outstanding officers and good sticks. The most memorable gunnery deployment I was ever on was in Fallon with VF 211. It was Saturday afternoon and there was a Squadron beer bust and Tim and I decided we would go out and target shoot with our pistols. We had been practicing quick drawing with our Rugger Single Sixes. We practiced at home in front of our beds so if we lost the gun it would fall on the bed. I told Tim I could not quick draw until I modified my holster as my gun hung in my holster while practicing and it pulled my thumb off the hammer and I would have shot myself in the leg. We started out with five hundred rounds and we were down to about thirty rounds left. Tim was having a great time trying to hit a tin can swinging from a string, from a quick draw. I could not resist. After about four tries the can went zing. I hollered " I got it" Tim yelled back "no I got it". I replied, I got it in the Leg. Red Dawg Davis our skipper came in hospital with great concern for his troupes and learning what had happened he said" if you had been at the squadron beer bust getting drunk with the rest of us you would not have shot yourself in the leg". I still carry some of that lack of intelligence today. At seventy nine years old it is still hanging around.

Tim went on to VF 24 and I went to VF 124. One day while working with a Nugget FRP at high altitude he ran into me while crossing under. While floating down into San Francisco Bay in a parachute, two AD's came very up for a very close look. I gave them the finger as they were to close for comfort. Later that evening I was having a beer with Tim and he said he was flying at the time of the midair and he heard on the radio, "Did you see that? No, what! You almost hit a guy in a Parachute!"

Tim was old school, very blunt with the facts and did not play politics with his senior Officers, he told it like it was. For that, Tim was given lower grades on his fitness reports by some officers that played the game of politics of self-promotion. Thank God for officers like Jim Stockdale, Red Dawg Davis and Paul Pugh. They are too few and far between and fewer every year. We need more officers today like our Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen Amos. Too bad he is not running the Navy along with the Marine Corps.

Tim had a second probable Mig kill in addition to his confirmed kill but it could not be confirmed.

The last time I saw Tim Hubbard he was a Justice of the Peace In a small town in Texas. Can you imagine coming up in front of Tim Hubbard in court with a bullshit answer to a charge?

I always remember the great times we had together and truly appreciated his talent and quickness of mind.

Bob Burlingame

1248
In response to the comments of the F-8 resting halfway down the cliff south of the Leeward Point runway, I believe I can provide some info for those who might be curious as the facts surrounding the occurrence. I had hoped that Bob Loomis might respond, but I cannot find out where he is and if he is still around. The last time I saw him was at at a LACB in San Diego in the '90's, and I know of no one who has had any contact with him since.

This occurred in April of 1962 when VF-132, as part of CAG-13 under George Watkins, was shaking down Connie in the Gitmo area. My logbook shows my first landings on Connie on 28 February and the first days of March, then we were based ashore at Leeward until early April, and flew the rest of that month from the ship. My last landing on the ship was on 3 May, and I got a total of 23 traps, 4 at night. We flew daily gunnery hops ashore as well as providing services for ship controllers. During our time there Bob Loomis, Tom Scott and I flew to Roosie Roads for a weekend. After a couple of weeks the ship started some limited cyclic ops, with each squadron getting around 12 sorties/day. There were no CQ sessions, all flights were regular cycles. We started night flying after about ten days and these launches were limited to couple of birds of each type. We lost 2 birds in these evolutions. The first was when CAG, flying "Double Nuts", took a high dip, landed on his nose wheel, collapsing it, boltering, and in the process flattening his intake duct, which prompted a near-simultaneous burner light and flame-out just off the angle. He punched out and was picked up promptly by the helo. I was on the AAR board, not a difficult investigation, with the combination of plat tapes and a conspicuous ever widening stripe of gray paint, which began just past the 4-wire and continued until it was exactly the width of an F-8 intake duct, about halfway up the angle. This was his third flight of the day, the others being in a Spad and an A4.

Bob Loomis collapsed his right main mount one night and boltered, which led to his being ordered to bingo to Leeward and effect a short field arrestment. I remember being in the ready room and commenting to anybody who was there that somebody better make sure he gets the word to land east west to get a decent straightaway and so that if he's pulled off the runway he'll have plenty of unobstructed space available. Guess what! The duty officer ordered him to make his approach west to east. The result was he engaged the gear OK, shut down the engine, and the drag from the right side took him off the runway right about at the 3000' mark, where there's only about 60' of space between the runway and the cliff. He blew the canopy, the a/c went over the side and stayed upright. When all the crashing stopped, he said there was silence and darkness. He looked over the side before he attempted to egress and could see white water below him. Crash crew arrived and got some light on him and his surroundings, and he realized he was about 20' or more above the rocks. He crawled back on the fuselage to where he could egress via the tail section with help from the crash personnel. The Ops duty officer stated that he didn't want an a/c sliding off the runway and endangering planes parked on the ramp to the north of the taxiway. It didn't make any sense to me then and it still doesn't. You'd have to keep the power on to slide that far. Google the Leeward runway and you'll see what I mean. That night Bob was quoted as saying he'd invented a new name for a Happy Hour drink, the "2N on the Rocks".

Since we're rehashing all this stuff, I might as well add a couple of other events which occurred during our time on the Connie, one of which broke in my favor. I was schedules officer and the first time we were to night fly, I scheduled our Skipper, Herk Camp to lead our first flight with his wingman, Tom Scott. The F8's were first to land during recovery so we assumed he'd get the first night landing in Connie's history. I penciled my name in as spare. Prior to launch, Skipper's bird went down some time after we were all started, so they pulled me out and I launched with Scottie. As I was senior I led the flight, which was to bump heads with each other for about 30 minutes, then go to marshall and recover. When we got to marshall I gave Scottie the lead, so as to let him get the first trap. Crazy how that worked. He got a fouled-deck wave-off and I trapped.

The other event involved Mac Lupfer, A couple of nights later he launched with his leader (can't remember who) for the same type of hop. About 10 minutes after launch the ship's radar and tacan went down. All a/c were instructed to marshall overhead using the High Trout, which was working, the the recovery would be teardrop penetration driving inbound. CCA had their precision gear up. The a/c were stacked individually. At appointed time the leader called pushing, and one minute later Mac called pushing and headed outbound. Each was to call penetration turn. Mac went out the inbound radial. Soon there were calls about a bogey in the area going the opposite direction of all the traffic. There were people evading and jinking and nobody knew where the ship was and the ship couldn't see anybody so the whole mess was bingoed to rum goodyland. Nobody even got in a position to make a pass at the deck. Such are the trials and tribulations of CV shakedowns.

Best to all,

John Holm

1249
As the Tim Hubbard stories continue, I wanted to put my two cents in from an enlisted point of view. I was a PT2 (Photographic Intelligenceman) in VFP-63 in 1970 and had just returned from my second cruise aboard Coral Sea. Squadron wanted a PT to work in the Photo Brief shop at the hangar, helping to grade film shot by pilots going through the photo syllabus. Most of the PT's were happy to hang out in the PI Shop at the Photo Lab doing special projects in between dets, but I volunteered to go to Photo Brief. I first worked for LCDR "Wild Bill" Evans, then LCDR Hubbard took over the photo syllabus. I appreciated the confidence that Tim Hubbard placed in my ability to review and grade the pilots' missions without him having to cross-check me. I'd run the film and he'd chop off on the grade sheets and he always backed me up. Later Tim was OinC of the next Coral Sea det, "Hubbard's Mothers". He asked me to go out with him but two quick-turn-around cruises on old "Coral Maru" were enough for me, I went back out in April '71 aboard Midway. I'm glad Tim finally made CDR, he was a good man to work for.

Jerry Nolan

1250
I had the pleasure of meeting Tim Hubbard during my Plow-Back tour in VT-25, Chase Field, Beeville, TX '67 to '69. For some reason I decided half way through my Plow-Back tour to become an LSO so took every opportunity to go out with the squadron's LSOs during FCLPs, observe, write in the book, take every CQ overhead safety mission I could get and bag as many traps as possible.

On one such event, I climbed in the back seat of Tex Button's T-F9 for an early morning flight down to NALF Orange Grove where two flights of students were due for FCLPs an hour later.

The weather was CAVU at Chase Field when we departed, but as we headed South towards Orange Grove, there was some patchy ground fog that turned solid and we couldn't see the field from roughly 10 miles out.

Tex shot a clean NDB/ADF approach to RWY 13 level at 500' and 250 kts. When we got overhead (the NDB cone of confusion), we could see the field so Tex called the ground crew and told them we wanted land on RWY 31. He drove out for 30 seconds then did a 90/270 maneuver. He dropped the gear and flaps coming out of the 270º turn then drove in dirty just above the ground fog.

We picked up the runway overrun at a mile and landed. Unfortunately the visibility on deck was still around a half mile. Tex called back to the squadron duty officer and told him to have the students man up but not start engines until he called back.

We grabbed a pickup and drove out to the LSO cart on RWY 31. Once there, we started the generator, the radio and we were in the process of checking the lens glide slope with the pole and mirror when a VT-22 Cougar came down the runway at 100' going as fast as a Cougar could go...

The Cougar pitched up at mid-field then broke into the FCLP pattern... Tex and I watched with interest. The pilot called the ball as the gear and flaps came down on short final and the canopy rolled back just prior to touchdown... It was LCDR Tim Hubbard.

The ground fog wasn't burning off so I had nearly an hour talking with Tim before the student's entered the pattern. The details and recount of his Mig-17 shoot down had my head spinning.

What really had me laughing my head off was Tim's requirements for carrying black shoe polish in his survival vest. His first comment was it never hurts to keep your flight boots shined... The second reason... There were still some head-hunters in the jungles of SE Asia and Southern Luzon... and shrunken heads with white hair were highly prized possessions...

Then he said with a big grin... "if I ever need to punch out for some reason over a jungle area... as soon as I'm on the ground and under cover, I'll break out the black shoe polish and do my hair black... "

Pete Batcheller

1251
Tanking with the 130's. We had a lot of that bringing our D's to California from Kaneohe and bringing back E's that we later flew to Vietnam and then back to California a year later. The 130's were great but due to weather they were not always where we were told they would be. Jay Miller's comment brought back memories. Air to air tacan was a big help along with the ADF he mentioned. Dropping down from around 50K to hook up at 20K and then cruise climbing back to altitude made one envious of the USAF birds who had their own KC-135 right up there with them.

Bruce Martin

1252
Tex Button was one of several colorful Spad drivers at VT-25 in the late 60's. Tom Patton, bagged a MIG-17 with his A-1, Ray "Ziggy" Letourneau; did the unnatural act of diving his A-1 Skyraider into the Tonkin Gulf off the bow of a carrier after his aircraft shed the bridal just as the cat stroked. The movie Ray showed us how the Cat Officer ran up the deck beside Ray's A-1 giving the throttle back signal until his A-1 skid to the bow and almost stopped before doing a slow motion graceful dive over the deck net into the water a scant 10 feet in front of the ship's bow...

Ray said he saw as his cockpit passed between two of the ship's four screws before he pushed clear of his cockpit and bobbed to the surface nearly a hundred yards aft of the ship...

The other movie we saw with great regularity before each CQ evolution was Terry Kryway's F-8 flightdeck ejection film and sequence following his landing gear collapse...

As I recall, Tex had three classic calls as an LSO... The first was: "Gimee a little motor..." The second: "MOTOR..." with emphasis... and the third call... made with with a matter of nonchalance... "You're going to bust your ass..." and that usually had the desired effect of max power and nose-up attitude...

You might be able to track down Tex through one of the links at the A-1 Skyraider Association web site at: http://www.skyraider.org/

Pete Batcheller

1253
During our work ups for deployment aboard USS Midway in 1959 at NAS Alameda, we had a division leader who was chosen to be a division leader because he was senior due to earlier duty as a navy seal. However, his total flight time was less than even our section leader. Maybe to prove himself, our division was put thru many situations where the risk benefit was marginal at best. For example, he led us in a tight 4 plane formation, 1500 feet, 475 knots, over Stanford University, Palo Alto Airport, Moffett Field, Hayward Airport, Oakland Airport and into the break for runway 25 at NAS Alameda. Can't remember exactly how many close mid-airs we avoided with light bug smashers but it was enough to make one our other division leaders, ( Ed Hickey) who happened to be on that flight, to give him a royal ass chewing.

This bravura behavior carried over to his weekend activities as well and he took his wife on a hike into the Big Sur River canyon where there are many signs forbidding climbing or hiking in that area due to extreme impassable hazards of cliffs and rocky terrain. Well you guessed it, he fell over one of these cliffs and broke his right arm resulting in a compound fracture. His resourceful wife used a hatchet to make a splint and they were brought out by an alpine rescue team. His arm experienced severe withering and he was unable to fly during the whole period of our cruise. I suspect this may have prevented our flight from eventually losing an airplane due to his poor judgement. To his credit, he worked extremely hard to regain his arm strength and back into a flying status after our cruise was over.

The really good news was our division was pretty much taken over by our CAG, Ed Holley!! What a dramatic and fantastic change!! However, as you might expect the job of CAG required a lot of his attention for things other than details of certain missions. USS Midway was involved in a missile shoot near the Island of Okinawa and the exercise area was restricted to only the drones and the F3H squadrons. Our F8 squadron was not involved. But for our F8 squadron we were to fly a section on section ACM hop outside the missile shoot area. Shortly after CAG and I engaged the other section my radio transmitter went down so I joined on the other section and hand signaled my transmitter problem. I heard my new lead tell CAG that they would take me back to the ship and CAG acknowledged he would go back by himself. You guessed it!! He flew right thru the missile shoot area. The ship's controller saw this "drone" entering the exercise shoot area and vectored an F3H for a head on pull up sparrow shot. When the F3H driver pulled the trigger on the first sparrow it failed to launch. When he reached over to switch to the other sparrow, he momentarily took his head out of the scope and looked up to see the underside of an F8 going over the top of him. The F3H driver was shocked at what he saw and how close he came to shooting down an F8 instead of a drone but not nearly as shocked when he got back to the ship and learned who it was that he nearly smoked.

Hank Smith

1254
When I joined VF-13, my first boss was Brown Bear Schaffert, the world's greatest first boss. On an early hop we were to be vectored out and then turned in pointing at one another at 22,000 and 24,000. We came right at each other, but neither saw the other. Later I found out That sneaky guy was at 16,000. I couldn't see him from 30,000.

Larry Durbin

1255
Circus: I had to become much more innovative when I reported to VF-111 on the "Toasty O." However, I did bag Tooter Teague on three consecutive BCI intercepts. As the inbound bogey, I called my TACAN position every minute, but five miles ahead of my actual position. Tooter turned right in front of me all three times. Our XO, Al Williams, was observing this first East Coast v. West Coast hassle and almost died laughing at the debrief. He recalled me asking Tooter if we were using East Coast or West Coast rules, and Tooter just sneered as he told me to go ahead with my East Coast rules, whatever they were. Yeah ... the good old days!
V/R Brown Bear

Dick Schaffert

1256
I have a tape of the original Saufley Field Screamer. It was played to us as basic formation students and again years later as basic formation instructors. Very, very, funny...until we later saw the "other side" of the picture. More years later I checked into VT-21 in Kingsville to become an instructor and had the original Saufley Field Screamer for my first flight in the TF-9J. The weather for my Fam-1 was heavy rain with barely two hundred and a quarter. A section takeoff into the goop was executed with me barely hanging on trying to figure out the Cougar flaperons. It was not pretty, but very shortly no one else could see my embarrassment...except the "Screamer" in the back seat. He had obviously changed from screaming to laughing. When he could stop laughing long enough, he'd offer encouraging words, like "c'mon fighter pilot...stick it in there" followed with building chuckles. He was a great leader, excellent pilot, and a real joy to work for. I hope he's still around.

Bill Storey

1257
While training in the T-28 out of Whiting field in late 1961, I found myself flying the "formation stage" with an IP in the back seat who had a set of lungs that could be heard all the way to Miramar, CA. He also had a bad habit of removing his knee-pad in flight and throwing it at the front seat when he was unhappy with my performance. The entire syllabus was a nightmare for me. However, I did make it through, and was later assigned as a student to the jet pipeline at NAS Beeville, TX. And from there to Miramar, CA.

After a wonderful tour flying the F-8 Crusader I was ordered to VT-21 as an instructor. One of my jobs in VT-21 was as a schedules officer. I was in charge of assigning students to instructors and writing daily flight schedules. One day I noticed a name pop up on my schedules board that was very familiar. GUESS WHO!! It was my "screamer" from Whiting Field who was in jet transition training. I assigned him to ME!! During Instrument Stage ("C" Stage to most of us) he became the most proficient "partial panel" instrument pilot that ever existed. Unusual attitudes? Oh, yeah. Them too! But I never raised my voice. I made sure I flew his final instrument check. I gave him an "Up".

We actually became good friends near the end of his training and he did not remember me in the T-28. I never brought it up.

He was assigned to F-8's also at Miramar. I went to Vigi's at Albany, GA. Where's that? Life isn't always fair.

Vic Karcher

1258
I have 2,000.0 hours in the T-2A as an instructor in VT-9 1965-68. After watching that white helmet in front make the same mistake, month after month and year after year, something could snap for some. It didn't happen to me but I could see how it could. Three years as an instructor was too long.

BTW, when I returned to Meridian as the site manager for Grumman's TA-4J maintenance contract I found out that the Wing Commander had been a student of mine.
Talk about feeling old.

Jerry Kuechmann

1259
Apparently, those former students afflicted with screamers for flt cks were unaware that a carton of cigarettes or a bottle of booze given to the primary board boy, making the pilot assignments, would alleviate the problem and result in your getting a Santa Claus. Gotta understand the system.

Jerry Dempsey

1260
Richard Newton's comments about Maj. Charlie Cannon were spot on. You couldn't find a more demanding instructor nor a more personable friend and fellow aviator than Charlie. After flying with him as a student in VT-7 I next ran into him in DaNang. I was in VMF(AW) 235 and he was flying Hueys out of Marble Mountain. His combat exploits as a rotary wing pilot in combat were legendary and he was cited many times for his courage and ability. We partied hearty when we could and even ended up in hack together. But that's another story. His theory was if you can't handle pressure during training you might well come up short when your and your wingman's life are on the line. He was, as Richard indicated an extremely fair grader. I considered him to be a close friend and a superb aviator. I'm very glad that I got to know him both personally and professionally.

Dave Lorenzo

1261
Before we received our F8A's in VF931 at Willow Grove we flew FJ-3's and 4's, what I have long considered the latter as the best fighter without burner ever built; could do a barrel role initiated at 30M ft, had a wing on it like a razor blade but time in service was brief because what I experienced was typical: turning final one day with a nice solid donut and a firm feeling at the bottom of my pants the high wing just quit and my heart stopped as I went wobble wobble toward the ground muttered "you sonofabitch "as I two-blocked the throttle to hit wings level just short of the runway and up and on it. A few weekends later another reservist wasn't so lucky, ejected at the other end of the same runway and the plane fell into an unoccupied day school. I loved the airplane but it's service life was short and I never again trusted it in the landing pattern.

Bill Quinn

1262
As I was preflighting for a strafing hop at that swampy target around Glynco, the gunny from the ordnance crew advised me to only fire two guns at a time. Why? He told me that sustained bursts with all 4 guns would shatter the gunsight glass.

Of course to uphold the honor code of all good MARCAD's, that had to be checked out. Sure enough, a long burst rattled it in the brackets until it broke. I never tried it again but somewhere I have the broken glass.

Was this just a freak break or has anyone else ever heard of this?

John Souders

1263
THE BRIDGES AT TOKO-RI:
The Real Story by CAPT Paul N. Gray, USN, Ret,
USNA '41, former CO of VF-54.

Recently, some friends saw the movie "The Bridges at Toko-ri" on late night TV. After seeing it, they said, "You planned and led the raid. Why don't you tell us what really happened?" Here goes.

I hope Mr. Michener will forgive the actual version of the raid. His fictionalized account certainly makes more exciting reading.

On 12 December 1951 when the raid took place, Air Group 5 was attached to Essex, the flag ship for Task Force 77. We were flying daily strikes against the North Koreans and Chinese. God! It was cold. The main job was to interdict the flow of supplies coming south from Russia and China. The rules of engagement imposed by political forces in Washington would not allow us to bomb the bridges across the Yalu River where the supplies could easily have been stopped. We had to wait until they were dispersed and hidden in North Korea and then try to stop them.

The Air Group consisted of two jet fighter squadrons flying Banshees and Grumman Panthers plus two prop attack squadrons flying Corsairs and Skyraiders. To provide a base for the squadrons, Essex was stationed 100 miles off the East Coast of Korea during that bitter Winter of 1951 and 1952.

I was CO of VF-54, the Skyraider squadron. VF-54 started with 24 pilots. Seven were killed during the cruise. The reason 30 percent of our pilots were shot down and lost was due to our mission. The targets were usually heavily defended railroad bridges. In addition, we were frequently called in to make low-level runs with rockets and napalm to provide close support for the troops.

Due to the nature of the targets assigned, the attack squadrons seldom flew above 2000 or 3000 feet; and it was a rare flight when a plane did not come back without some damage from AA or ground fire.

The single-engine plane we flew could carry the same bomb load that a B-17 carried in WWII; and after flying the 100 miles from the carrier, we could stay on station for 4 hours and strafe, drop napalm, fire rockets or drop bombs. The Skyraider was the right plane for this war.

On a gray December morning, I was called to the flag bridge. Admiral "Black Jack" Perry, the Carrier Division Commander, told me they had a classified request from UN headquarter to bomb some critical bridges in the central area of the North Korean peninsula. The bridges were a dispersion point for many of the supplies coming down from the North and were vital to the flow of most of the essential supplies. The Admiral asked me to take a look at the targets and see what we could do about taking them out. As I left, the staff intelligence officer handed me the pre-strike photos, the coordinates of the target and said to get on with it. He didn't mention that the bridges were defended by 56 radar-controlled anti-aircraft guns.

That same evening, the Admiral invited the four squadron commanders to his cabin for dinner. James Michener was there. After dinner, the Admiral asked each squadron commander to describe his experiences in flying over North Korea. By this time, all of us were hardened veterans of the war and had some hairy stories to tell about life in the fast lane over North Korea.

When it came my time, I described how we bombed the railways and strafed anything else that moved. I described how we had planned for the next day's strike against some vital railway bridges near a village named Toko-ri (The actual village was named Majonne). That the preparations had been done with extra care because the pre-strike pictures showed the bridges were surrounded by 56 anti-aircraft guns and we knew this strike was not going to be a walk in the park.

All of the pilots scheduled for the raid participated in the planning. A close study of the aerial photos confirmed the 56 guns. Eleven radar sites controlled the guns. They were mainly 37 MM with some five inch heavies. All were positioned to concentrate on the path we would have to fly to hit the bridges. This was a World War II air defense system but still very dangerous.

How were we going to silence those batteries long enough to destroy the bridges? The bridges supported railway tracks about three feet wide. To achieve the needed accuracy, we would have to use glide bombing runs. A glide bombing run is longer and slower than a dive bombing run, and we would be sitting ducks for the AA batteries. We had to get the guns before we bombed the bridges.

There were four strategies discussed to take out the radar sites. One was to fly in on the deck and strafe the guns and radars. This was discarded because the area was too mountainous. The second was to fly in on the deck and fire rockets into the gun sites. Discarded because the rockets didn't have enough killing power. The third was to come in at a high altitude and drop conventional bombs on the targets. This is what we would normally do, but it was discarded in favor of an insidious modification. The one we thought would work the best was to come in high and drop bombs fused to explode over the gun and radar sites. To do this, we decided to take 12 planes; 8 Skyraiders and 4 Corsairs. Each plane would carry a 2000 pound bomb with a proximity fuse set to detonate about 50 to 100 feet in the air. We hoped the shrapnel from these huge, ugly bombs going off in mid air would be devastating to the exposed gunners and radar operators.

The flight plan was to fly in at 15,000 feet until over the target area and make a vertical dive bombing run dropping the proximity-fused bombs on the guns and radars. Each pilot had a specific complex to hit. As we approached the target we started to pick up some flak, but it was high and behind us. At the initial point, we separated and rolled into the dive. Now the flak really became heavy. I rolled in first; and after I released my bomb, I pulled out south of the target area and waited for the rest to join up. One of the Corsairs reported that he had been hit on the way down and had to pull out before dropping his bomb. Three other planes suffered minor flak damage but nothing serious.

After the join up, I detached from the group and flew over the area to see if there was anything still firing. Sure enough there was heavy 37 MM fire from one site, I got out of there in a hurry and called in the reserve Skyraider still circling at 15,000 to hit the remaining gun site. His 2000 pound bomb exploded right over the target and suddenly things became very quiet. The shrapnel from those 2000 lbs. bombs must have been deadly for the crews serving the guns and radars. We never saw another 37 MM burst from any of the 56 guns.

From that moment on, it was just another day at the office. Only sporadic machine gun and small arms fire was encountered. We made repeated glide bombing runs and completely destroyed all the bridges. We even brought gun camera pictures back to prove the bridges were destroyed.

After a final check of the target area, we joined up, inspected our wingmen for damage and headed home. Mr. Michener plus most of the ship's crew watched from Vulture's Row as Dog Fannin, the landing signal officer, brought us back aboard. With all the pilots returning to the ship safe and on time, the Admiral was seen to be dancing with joy on the flag Bridge.

From that moment on, the Admiral had a soft spot in his heart for the attack pilots. I think his fatherly regard for us had a bearing on what happened in port after the raid on Toko-ri. The raid on Toko-ri was exciting; but in our minds, it was dwarfed by the incident that occurred at the end of this tour on the line. The operation was officially named OPERATION PINWHEEL. The pilots called it OPERATION PINHEAD.

The third tour had been particularly savage for VF-54. Five of our pilots had been shot down. Three not recovered. I had been shot down for the third time. The mechanics and ordnancemen had worked back-breaking hours under medieval conditions to keep the planes flying, and finally we were headed for Yokosuka for ten days of desperately needed R & R.

As we steamed up the coast of Japan, the Air Group Commander, CDR Marsh Beebe, called CDR Trum, the CO of the Corsair squadron, and me to his office. He told us that the prop squadrons would participate in an exercise dreamed up by the commanding officer of the ship. It had been named OPERATION PINWHEEL.

The Corsairs and Skyraiders were to be tied down on the port side of the flight deck; and upon signal from the bridge, all engines were to be turned up to full power to assist the tugs in pulling the ship alongside the dock.

CDR Trum and I both said to Beebe, "You realize that those engines are vital to the survival of all the attack pilots. We fly those single engine planes 300 to 400 miles from the ship over freezing water and over very hostile land. Overstressing these engines is not going to make any of us very happy." Marsh knew the danger; but he said, "The captain of the ship, CAPT. Wheelock, wants this done, so do it!"

As soon as the news of this brilliant scheme hit the ready rooms, the operation was quickly named OPERATION PIN HEAD; and CAPT. Wheelock became known as CAPT. Wheelchock.

On the evening before arriving in port, I talked with CDR Trum and told him, "I don't know what you are going to do, but I am telling my pilots that our lives depend on those engines and do not give them more than half power; and if that engine temperature even begins to rise, cut back to idle." That is what they did.

About an hour after the ship had been secured to the dock, the Air Group Commander screamed over the ships intercom for Gray and Trum to report to his office. When we walked in and saw the pale look on Beebe's face, it was apparent that CAPT. Wheelock, in conjunction with the ship's proctologist, had cut a new aperture in poor old Marsh. The ship's CO had gone ballistic when he didn't get the full power from the lashed down Corsairs and Skyraiders, and he informed CDR Beebe that his fitness report would reflect this miserable performance of duty.

The Air Group Commander had flown his share of strikes, and it was a shame that he became the focus of the wrath of CAPT. Wheelock for something he had not done. However, tensions were high; and in the heat of the moment, he informed CDR Trum and me that he was placing both of us and all our pilots in hack until further notice. A very severe sentence after 30 days on the line.

The Carrier Division Commander, Rear Admiral "Black Jack" Perry a personally soft and considerate man, but his official character would strike terror into the heart of the most hardened criminal. He loved to talk to the pilots; and in deference to his drinking days, Admiral Perry would reserve a table in the bar of the Fujia Hotel and would sit there drinking CocaCola while buying drinks for any pilot enjoying R & R in the hotel.

Even though we were not comfortable with this gruff older man, he was a good listener and everyone enjoyed telling the Admiral about his latest escape from death. I realize now he was keeping his finger on the morale of the pilots and how they were standing up to the terror of daily flights over a very hostile land.

The Admiral had been in the hotel about three days; and one night, he said to some of the fighter pilots sitting at his table, "Where are the attack pilots? I have not seen any of them since we arrived." One of them said, "Admiral, I thought you knew. They were all put in hack by the Air Group Commander and restricted to the ship." In a voice that could be heard all over the hotel, the Admiral bellowed to his aide, "Get that idiot Beebe on the phone in 5 minutes; and I don't care if you have to use the Shore Patrol, the Army Military Police or the Japanese Police to find him. I want him on the telephone NOW!"

The next morning, after three days in hack, the attack pilots had just finished marching lockstep into the wardroom for breakfast, singing the prisoners song when the word came over the loud speaker for Gray and Trum to report to the Air Group Commander's stateroom immediately. When we walked in, there sat Marsh looking like he had had a near death experience. He was obviously in far worse condition than when the ships CO got through with him. It was apparent that he had been worked over by a real pro.

In a trembling voice, his only words were, "The hack is lifted. All of you are free to go ashore. There will not be any note of this in your fitness reports. Now get out of here and leave me alone."

Posters saying, "Thank you Black Jack" went up in the ready rooms. The long delayed liberty was at hand.

When writing about this cruise, I must pay homage to the talent we had in the squadrons. LTJG Tom Hayward was a fighter pilot who went on to become the CNO. LTJG Neil Armstrong another fighter pilot became the astronaut who took the first step on the moon. My wingman, Ken Shugart, was an all-American basketball player and later an admiral. Al Masson, another wingman, became the owner of one of New Orleans' most famous French restaurants. All of the squadrons were manned with the best and brightest young men the U.S. could produce. The mechanics and ordnance crews who kept the planes armed and flying deserve as much praise as the pilots for without the effort they expended, working day and night under cold and brutal conditions, no flight would have been flown.

It was a dangerous cruise. I will always consider it an honor to have associated with those young men who served with such bravery and dignity. The officers and men of this air group once again demonstrated what makes America the most outstanding country in the world today. To those whose spirits were taken from them during those grim days and didn't come back, "I will always remember you."

1264
Thank you for sharing this background on Michener's 'Bridges at Toko-Ri'. The story is a little more complicated than this one account. Michener, as any good author would do, drew from a number of sources to put together what must be one of the seminal works on the Korean War and, more particularly, naval aviation at the time.

When the NK's invaded South Korea in June 1950, my father was CO of CAG 11 aboard the USS Philippine Sea which deployed almost immediately to West Pac. Upon arrival on station, the CAG began round the clock operations against the NKs and specifically the LOCs, bridges, rail lines, etc. in an effort to slow their advance and relieve the pressure on allied forces. James Michener was on board the Philippine Sea at the time and spent considerable time interviewing the aviators flying these dangerous missions. He knew my father well.

If you recall from the book, the main protagonist was married to a redhead (my mother) and had five children (my brothers and sisters and I). The main character was killed trying to destroy a particularly important bridge. I am attaching a copy of my father's Navy Cross citation which describes an action in August 1950 remarkably similar to both the book and Capt. Gray's account below. My mother was told many years ago by my father's CAG members that Michener had said that the book was based in part on the mission on which my father was KIA. For many years, my grandfather, in whose house I was raised, would not let me see the movie about 'Toko-Ri' because he said to do so would be disrespectful of my father's memory. Interestingly, when I was a First Class at the Academy, I met the then-Navy Captain who had been my father's wingman on that fateful day. He confirmed the details of the mission and remarked as an aside that it was the basis of Michener's book.

Another interesting bit of background is that my father was not even supposed to fly that day. He was alternating with his CAG deputy but on that day, the deputy feigned sickness and said he could not fly. My father led the attack as he had on most of the previous missions. As soon as the CAG had taken off for the target area, the deputy hopped into a plane and flew to Japan to see his girlfriend. He, the deputy, eventually made Admiral and has long since passed away. I'm not sure what sort of reception he got in Eternity.

There is an image of my father on the wall of the Korean War Memorial in Washington. For Christmas this year, my daughters gave me a framed copy of the second picture attached above. The great cycle of life continues.

I haven't read the book or seen the movie in forty or fifty years so some of my details may have become blurred. Nonetheless, the history is there and we would do well to remember it - lest we be condemned to repeat it.

Michener asked, "Where do we get such men?" Indeed.

Regards, Fred Vogel

1265
The first Transpac made by a single engine jet for the Navy or Marines was the F8U 2NE. This was flown by VMF (AW) 451 in January 1962 from El Toro, CA to Atsugi, Japan. It was made flying in full pressure suits with stops in Kaneohe Bay HI, Midway, Wake Island and Guam. We plugged into Marine C-130's and found them with DF steers and radar. I believe we flew twenty aircraft in three different flights and all aircraft made it without incident. Flight leaders were Charlie Crew (CO), Steve Furimsky (XO) and Don Stiver (Ops.O). In the three year period the squadron flew over twenty thousand accident free hours (which was unheard of at the time) and three consecutive CNO safety awards. During this three year period we operated off of four different carriers Oriskany, Lexington, Hancock and Coral Sea. The success of the squadron was attributed directly to the professionalism of Steve Furimsky, Don Stiver, Lee Madera (Avionics O). Ron Kron (LSO), Pappy Gash (Safety O) and John Irwin (Maint. O). The Air Force had transpac previously.

Al Ransom

1266
VF-162 and VF-111 did a Trans-Pac in 1970 to join the Shang in Cubi. NKX to Barbers to Wake to Guam and on to Cubi using C-130's out of NKX and A-3s the rest of the way.

Better than riding the ship!

JO Kennedy

1267
VF-111 and VF-162 transPac'd both ways on our 1970 cruise. Going over was a partial squadron transPac, with four a/c and 7 pilots (including me) riding the Shang the long way around from Mayport to Cubi via the Cape of Good Hope.

On the way home the entire squadron transPac'd. According to an article "Shang and the Sundowners" by Martin Zijlstra published in The Hook in the Spring 1998 issue, "The officers and men of VF-111 left the carrier and transPac'd back to Miramar rather than sailing all the way back to Florida. The transPac via Guam, Wake and Hawaii was supported by maintenance crews on two C-118s and one C-121. The remainder of the unit returned home on a DC-8 and a C-141. Although there was some delay due to logistical problems (actually a week on Wake due to weather. See attached picture of bored fighter pilots taken at Tower Beach, Wake, as proof), the trip back home marked the first time an aviation squadron's entire assets were flown from WestPac to the U.S. West Coast."

I can't attest to the claim that ours was a first of the type mentioned. However, we did transPac. And, at the same time as our return transPac an Air Force unit of F-105's, with their KC-135's, overflew us.

So I think the single engine transPac was SOP by 1970. Probably earlier.

Rick Hadden

1268
In response to Single Engine TRANSPAC I participated in one event that took place commencing at Cubi Point on November 13, 1970 and ending at Miramar November 23, 1970. It was probably not the first single engine aircraft TRANSPAC but maybe the largest. The squadrons were VF-111/VF-162 with 22 aircraft flying from USS Shangri La to their home base at NKX. Skippers of the respective squadrons were CDR Bill Rennie (VF-111) and CDR Mo Wright (VF-162). The TRANSPAC was orchestrated by then LCDR Dave Cowles who was Operations Officer of VF-111 and others whom memory doesn't serve. On Nov 23 we made it to Miramar having lost one bird at Guam that landed on it's speedbrake and couldn't continue. Even though we had attempted the TRANSPAC with our own CVW-8 A-3 tankers, eventually we had to be augmented with KC-135? tankers.

There are lots of side stories not the least of which was our 7/8 day stay on Wake Island necessitated because of terrible weather over Midway Island and a lack of Duck Butt (HU-16) coverage because of a scheduled trip by the V/POTUS. We did the best we could to make sure Wake Island never forgot we were there and finally executed out of Wake to Barbers point on 22 Nov and subsequently to NKX on 23 Nov. We skipped Midway Is. since the weather was still too bad to tank.

There are many of you out there that can add much in the way of embellishment to this story. I welcome comments and corrections to these recollections.

Regards,
Bob Pearl

1269
In reference to single engine TransPac, I did it 4 times in the 67-69 time frame in F-8Hs. (two over and two back) We refueled from Marine 130's that left 4-5 hours ahead of us and refueled at 20,000' or from our A-3 on one flight. We normally stopped at Barbers, Wake, Guam and Cubi. The last flight we had to make an emergency stop at Johnston Is. The locals surrounded us with machine guns until they figured we were semi friendly and we patched our planes and left after a few hours. They never told us what was in the big Geodesic dome. Anyway, we could dead reckon across the Pacific in single seat, single engine aircraft 45 years ago.

George Hise

1270
VF-111, VF-162 and the VFP-63 photo det did a TransPac from Cubi Pt to NAS Miramar in November of 1970, departing Cubi on the 13th and arriving Miramar on the 23rd. We utilized a combination of Navy A-3 and Marine KC-130 tankers. There were lots of TransPacs that went from east to west, but very few coming back west to east. When we began our planning, AIRPAC had no prior plans they could provide us on west to east TransPacs, so Dick Martin (OPS O, VF-162) and I and our respective teams were scrambling to put it all together from scratch.

Dave Cowles

1271
In response to Darryl "Specs" Stubbs question about the "Blue Bloods" episode with Tom Selleck and the F8, that episode was written by my son, Dan, who is a TV writer and is writing for "Blue Bloods" this season. The scene aboard Intrepid and the inclusion of the Crusader was no accident. Dan grew up listening to me tell tall tales about my time flying F8s in VF-33 aboard Intrepid.

Dan wrote for several years for "Law and Order - SVU" and wrote one episode about a deranged killer astronaut. He named the character "Dick Finley."

Dick Truly

1272
Re LtCol. Ervice's question about an F-8 on its back with gear extended: This might have been an a/c we lost in VF-191 in the Fall of 1973. The pilot lost all utility pressure (and I believe the radome) during a tactics hop and was unable to raise the wing, even pneumatically, on the way back to Miramar. A wing-down approach was flown with the hook down in an attempt to engage the long-field gear. The a/c failed to engage the gear and departed the end of 24R at a pretty high speed (maybe 140 kts.??) Since the ground was pretty bumpy out there, the pilot decided to eject and did so successfully. As I remember, the a/c came to rest much as described by LtCol Ervice. I remember this because I had a similar incident (lost utility pressure and unable to raise the wing pneumatically) at night at marshall during workups on Oriskany about a month before, but was bingoed and successful in snagging the long-field gear. I remember that the accident report on the lost a/c showed that the hook point was worn away almost completely by contact with the runway, and Natops procedures were changed afterwards to suggest that in that situation, the approach should be flown hook up and then lowered within a few thousand feet of the gear.

Hal "DB" Valeche

1273
In response to Garland Goodwin I believe the second Transpac was with Cliff Judkins and the squadron was VMF-323 and Cliff ejected enroute to Hawaii and I believe it was in the summer of 1962, help me out here Cliff. Because of the difficulties in getting to Hawaii, I believe the squadron's aircraft were ferried to the far east. A Marine A4 squadron also transpac to Japan in 1062 or 63 and they may have gone over before Cliff Judkins squadron or just after. But the first squadron was VMF (AW) 451 in January 1962 flying F8U 2NE.

Al Ransom

1274
Garland Goodwin asked about where do Judkins and Tooker fit into all of this. We both made it to the first refueling point, about 600 miles out. He ejected with minor burns on 18 June, 1963, picked up by a destroyer. I bailed out the next day, 19 June and was fished out of the Pacific by a mine sweeper, USS Embattle. We managed to ruin a big, big operation. Several members of our squadron, VMF(aw)323 made it to Hawaii on the 18th, and that was the end of "Operation Green Wave". This coming June 19th will be 50 years since my bailout, and that damn Crusader is still trying to kill me. I've been in the hospital twice with blood clots in my lungs. They are forming as the result of the 11 breaks in my feet and ankles. I haven't been in salt water since then. Tooker died of liver cancer about 6 or so years ago, so, I can't complain, I'm still semi vertical.

Cliff Judkins

1275
I transpacked an RF8G from Miramar to Cubi in 1972. We had to tank twice between Miramar and Hawaii. We had an RA5C in our cell, and they could not make it without tanking twice. We used the Marine C-131's out of El Toro - poor man's C-130. Tanking speed was 210 knots. No big deal getting plugged in, the problem came for me getting a full load. I found myself at full power and backing out as I ended up on the back side of the power curve. I ended up only getting about a 90% load of fuel. But what the hell, I could make it to Barber's with that load. Took fuel at the second refuleing time nayhow. Drove the basket in as far as I could, almost touching the wing. Still ended up with about a 95% fuel load before I ended up backing out. Spent a whole year one night on Wake Island.

Scott Ruby

1276
I never transpacked, but I played a major part in the operation. Our skipper, Lt. Col. Lew Steman (VMF-232) was aead of his time. First he worked at developing anti-sidewinder tactics. We were the 1st squadron to get them and (FJ-4's) and we developed pulling up into the sun and pointing toward ground to make them go stupid. Also, slewing our tailpipe away with rudder would work on those early models.Those were the days - I remember making sidewinder runs and lock-ons on UAL jets going into Honolulu. An AF General shot a 2nd Lt. down and when asked about it said "it worked like it should".

Anyway, Lew also thought up the F-8 transpac (1959-60). But he wasn't sure the J-57 would run for 8 hrs. on it's oil system. He tasked me with finding out. I went up to 45M and cruised up and down the Hawaiian Island chain for 8 hrs., dropping down several times to plug an FJ-4B buddy tanker from VMA-212 or 214. We had no auto- pilots or auto-throttles in the F8U-1E, and that 8 hrs. was a long time. It worked, he sent his report to FMF-Pac, and transpacs were started by the AF in F-100's.

One question - why did that mentioned squadron fly home in space suits? We were scheduled to get fitted for them but then that was cancelled. I didn't know any F8 squadron ever got them. I knew the Vigilantes flew in them all the time. Just curious.

Rick Carlton

1277
To answer Rick Carlton why the space suit for the VMF (AW) 451 Transpac from ConUS to the Far East. We received the space suit in 1961 and all pilots were issued a fitted suit, due to the altitude capability of the F8, as I remember anything above 47,500 called for it. Since we had them we thought it would be a good eval as well as not having to use poopy suits. Don Stiver would know more on this subject, and Stive I hope you will jump in on this.

For Larie Clark the average hours aloft was about 6.5 and that was the leg from El Toro to Hawaii with two hook ups at 600 NM from El Toro and another at 900 NM from El Toro, this was based on a 1200 NM capability and having a bingo fuel to land. After the last hook up you had about 1100 NM to go, we had a tanker over Hawaii if you were short on gas but we did not have to use it. The rest of the legs were shorter and required one or two hook ups per leg. All our work up flights were going out over the Pacific and practicing hook up for at least six hours to evaluate aircraft and pilots capability.

Al Ransom

1278
Larie Clark asked about the average time aloft for the TransPacs. One of two I went on in July, '68 had "Crazy Clyde" Toumela leading, with me, Jimmy Cannon, and Bobby Walters as wingmen, all flying new Hotels for delivery to whatever squadrons were on Yankee Station at the time…don't remember. We were to leave them in Cubi. My log book shows NKX to Barbers (NAX) at 5.3 hrs (2 refuels), NAX to Wake (XWI) at 4.8 (1 refuel overhead Midway), XWI to NAS Agana (GUM) at 3.2, and GUM to Cubi (NCP) at 3.2. Total 16.5 hrs.

An interesting trip to say the least, but that's another story.
John Braly

1279
VMF(AW)-232 had three TransPacs in 1966 and another in 1967. In preparation for a Vietnam deployment we traded our F8Ds for F8Es. My logbook shows a 4.7 in F8D 148707 from Kaneohe to Miramar with two refuelings on 21 April 1966. The return was on 25 April in F8E 149186 logging 5.5 also 2 refuelings. On 30 August I show a 5.5 from Kaneohe to Wake Island and the next day 4.0 from Wake to Atsugi, both in F8E 149212. Our return from Vietnam took place in September 1967. We left DaNang around 1 September and spent over a week at Cubi awaiting tankers. (One memorable visit to the Willows). I show a 3.5 from Cubi to Guam on 9 September, a 3.0 from Guam to Wake on the 10th and a 4.8 from Wake to Kaneohe on the 11th. All in F8E 150295. On the 12th I had a 5.4 from Kaneohe to Miramar in 150324 where we turned our weary F8s over to the Navy for conversion to the F8J.

In each of these evolutions we would typically cruise up around 50,000 feet, descending to around 20,000 feet to tank with the KC130s and then cruise climb back up to altitude. We wore normal flight gear. No pressure suits.

The only time I remember wearing the full pressure suit was when Harry Blot and I had a shot at an AQM or possibly a BQM out over the Pacific Missile Range. We did a pitch up at about Mach 1.8 firing sidewinders at the drone and topping out at around 67,000 feet I overtemped. I'm pretty sure Harry bagged the drone.

Bruce Martin

1280
We translanted VMF(AW) 451 to and from Rota twice in 1964. The return trip on 15 May 1964 was non-stop from Rota to MCAS Beaufort. The last section was Tiny Wanless and I. We were in burner detent from last refuel over Burmuda just to have the quickest time of crossing. 7.7 hours to the IAF NBC but we had to orbit for an hour because they had started the air show practice. Ended up with 8.7 by the time we were cleared to land. No one was briefed before the TransLant about the field closing for an hour the day of our arrival. Fortunately, it only affected Tiny and me.

Semper Fi
Mofak

Ed Cathcart

1281
In mid 1963 after finally getting released from my 10 month stint as a SERGRAD and assigned to VF-62, I entered Crusader training with VF-174. During this time; I and a small number of other pilots going thru VF-174; spent a full day plus getting measured, every joint, bone length, and etc., for a pressure suit. We were told, those pilots heading for a Crusader outfit which had been selected as a pressure suit squadrons were the only being measured and the ones getting the suits. After all the measuring and such we each received an ejection seat shot in a old suit, went to NAS Jacksonville's swim tank and suited up in some suits they had there and then jumped or was pushed off a tower into the water, was pulled thru the water with a chute attachment and then with the helmet, oxygen and communications on, pushed to the bottom of the pool and spent a few minutes walking around on same. When we returned from the 63-64 Med cruise, construction was just finishing up on a building between our hangar and the hangar east of ours and was designated the pressure suit storage, maintenance and briefing facility. The storage lockers were build specially for the suits and helmet's (extra large), there was a suit maintenance section, and a pilots briefing room with great seating for each individual pilot (ala ship's ready room). There were outlets for pressure suit a/c at each seat, and a/c boxes connected to us, which were carried by aviators equipment personal when dressed in the suit and going to the aircraft. I believe we even had a van which we rode in to get us a little closer to the aircraft, to reduce walking in the heat and humidity of the day.

All of this, for one flight in the suit whilst in VF 174 and two flights which I can remember while in VF-62. I can't remember hearing the cost for the facility I mentioned above, but I had heard that the suits cost more that a Volkswagen, which were going above 2500.00 dollars at the time. These were the same suits worn by Glenn, Scott and other Gemini Astronauts we were told. I remember this was about the time the TU-22 became operational with the Russians and this was the counter to that threat; a one shot missile, head on-high altitude go for defending the country. Biggest problem was being in the right place, on the right heading, at the right time to make this all happen.. GOOD LUCK on that being the case. The MIG driver only needed to make a slight heading change which we couldn't and never the twain would meet. I imagine this was done at NAS Oceana and NAS Miramar also and for a minimum of two squadrons at each base. Anyone know more about this operation?? Did the F4 drivers wear the suits also, for the same amount of time or flights or other comments.. Larie. VF-62

Larie Clark

1282
More TransPac trivia & minutiae: On the Barbers Pt to Wake leg, we purposely planned our route to go overhead Midway (which was a little off course) and refuel there at 20K. If we had any problems such as a utility failure or tanker problems, we could just drop down and land at Midway. Bruce Martin mentioned his 4.8 eastbound leg from Wake to Kaneohe. Just wondering if the Marines did something similar. Curious where your refueling point was going eastbound?

Speaking of Wake, I remember that great little bar they had right on the beach. We tried to drink it dry one time and it made for a looonnng leg to Guam the next day. Oh to be young again.

John Braly

1283
Pressure suits. Circa '61 in VF-33 we had some tired, tired corrosion infested F8U-1E's with more high energy landings than normal field landings (among the pilots were Bob Rasmussen, Jim Flatley, Dick Truly, John Disher, Mickey Brown, et al). They had sustained so many landings that Truly had a strut just blow up taxing out of the arresting gear following a normal landing. Our CO liked the pressure suit idea so we flew in them off Intrepid that had just had all the a/c hook ups installed in the RR. We hadn't flown in them while at Oceana, no FCLP etc., so the first hop for everyone was off the ship. What a pain to brief and dress in those damn things prior to each hop with all the riggers helping us get in them & to the planes. We really needed to do that in the -1E --- yeah, right !!!!!!!.

Ray Donnelly

1284
Re: Ray Donnelly's comments about pressure suits and corrosion problems in VF-33 F8U-1E's (1961-62). My memory is that the suits were really good for photo ops and being uncomfortable. I also flew full pressure suit flights in the F-104 (Edwards zoom flights) and Shuttles Enterprise and Columbia, which had SR-71 ejection seats. The first four orbital flights in Columbia were flown in full pressure suits for ascent and entry, plus we also had EVA suits in case of outdoor emergency repairs (luckily, never happened). After the first four flights the crews were more than 2, the seats were de-activated and the ascent/entry suits were left at home.

As for the -1E landing gear explosion Ray mentioned, it happened on 5 Jan 1961, BuNo 145454 aboard Intrepid. I had just trapped after a 1.9hr hop, normal landing. I taxied out of the gear, folded the wings and was parked forward on the port side, toed in next to the deck edge. Canopy was still closed, I had just stopped the aircraft when suddenly the F8 started rolling left. I had no idea what was happening and had my hands on the curtain handle when the rolling stopped (by flight deck contact by the wing-fold mechanism). I looked forward and saw a crewman frantically signaling for me to shut down the engine, which I did after the commotion had stopped. His eyes were wide as saucers from the explosion (which I never heard), initially thinking I had somehow fired a 20MM round. Turned out a 3,000psi cylinder in the port landing gear drag strut had let go. Debris was sent back to Chance Vought for analysis - after about a year (by this time we were aboard Enterprise flying -2NE's), the word came back - stress corrosion.

Dick Truly

1285
I came to VF-142 at NKX in June of '59, just after the squadron had finished its first Crusader WestPac cruise. All of us went through the fitting process at NAS North Island that summer and everybody got a suit. We flew some token indoc flights during work-up, and packed up all the suits and took them aboard Oriskany for the '60 cruise. I don't remember anybody flying in the suit on that cruise. In the summer of '61 we were sent East to board Kittyhawk, shake her down and bring her around to San Diego. We brought the suits along and used them as exposure suits during the transit around the Horn. After arriving in San Diego, most of us were transferred to Cecil to stand-up VF-132. Our suits went with us and we used them again during CQ ops on Indy in January off Vacapes. We also flew some sorties out of Cecil just to check out out the altitude capabilities of our new 2N's. I previously related in this forum my personal experience when I took flight without cinching down my lap straps, and proceeded to enter a zoom climb at 1.9 IMN to see how high I could get. Going into the high 60K area, I noted a creep stall and came out of burner. The EGT continued to rise so I shut the engine down. My suit inflated, all the O2 went to the butt of the suit and my head and shoulders were jammed into the canopy. I could reach the stick with my fingertips! I normally rode with the seat full up, so it got a little extreme. I floated over the top and wound up going straight down, never lost the generator, got a relight around 45K, and RTB. Never over-temped though.

John Holm

1286
Seems that the squadron got tasked with a bunch of radar calibration flights for a new Aegis cruiser. Really boring runs at 40K with lead straight and level and wingman in trail, opening an closing,to check resolution.

Seems on second such hop of day, and after lunch, fearless leader "Hey Little Man" Hamrick, put his bird on autopilot and goes to sleep. Bill Worley, sensing Frank was missing voice transmission, sees a wonderful opportunity.

About a mile in trail, ole Bill plugs in burner, gets supersonic, booms the safety officer and pulls up so's old Frank not only gets boomed awake, but sees a cockpit full of Crusader and jet wash that flips him on his back.

On debrief in ready room, I can hear Frank to this day. "Listen Little man, the next time I have you on my wing in the goo, I am going to slow roll your ass. Knowing Frank, he probably did.

Love those two-a-day poopy bag flights

Bill Catlett

1287
Ed Ellenbeck & I finished up VF-124 together in March '68 & reported into VF-24 on the very same day, where upon he immediately was given the handle "the Broom" because of his distinguishing moustache. A couple of months later, then Skipper Red Issacks approved a boondoggle for me to lead Ed on a mini-X-country to Airwing 21 Weapons-Det at NAS Fallon. We went by way of Luke AFB and then on to Hill at Salt Lake for a night of RON. The Air Force types at both towers requested high-performance take-offs and, of course, we were glad to oblige and followed with flat-hatting across Salt Lake before departing for Fallon. Flying low across the high desert, We both admitted to almost becoming 'lost' and damn-near flew right past Fallon. Those were the days...throw a Nickel on the Grass!

Regards, Lou Plotz

1288
After finally returning to flight status following a deck level ejection, (with VF-62 aboard the USS Independence on a N Atlantic NATO Cruise late summer of 1964) I had completed a day hop to refresh myself with the F8 having spent four months recuperating from a semi broken back. The next flight that same day was a night FCLP at Whitehouse OLF. The plane was full of fuel and so the brief was to depart NAS Cecil in burner, clean up, drop the boards and when down to max touch down weight be in the break to begin FCLP's. When the aircraft was at max landing weight I entered the break, broke hard and with the correct speed dropped the gear and raised the wing. Shortly thereafter the combined hydraulics lite illuminated, and I noticed the hydraulic pressure was zero and the FCLP period was going to be scrubbed. I left the one eighty flew up the runway and told the guys on the ground the problem and I was heading for Cecil Field. I switched to Cecil tower, informed them of my situation and I would be needing a arrested landing with no brakes.

With the gear down and the wing up I was burning fuel and down to 2100 pounds with Cecil in my sights. The tower informed me it would be twenty five to thirty minutes to rig the wire on 27 and I came back with I wouldn't have that much time. I had heard VF-174 doing FCLP's at Cecil on runway 18L, the longest runway at Cecil so I told the tower I wanted to land on that runway, would have 174's LSO monitor my approach, would touch down, shut down and roll to a stop with the air/hydraulic brake system. Little did I know that very morning the NATOPs group had met and I believe a msg had been sent that we were no longer to pump the brakes one time to set the slider valve for one application of brakes using air pressure to stop the aircraft. That info was going to be passed down at the following morning APM.

I touched down at the touchdown point, felt the aircraft's ass end start to sashay around a little and then two of the brightest yellow lights, (fire) lite up both cockpit mirrors. The brakes had locked up when applied, the tires ground thru in milliseconds as did the wheels and when the concrete reached the magnesium gear, FIRE in the hold.. A thousand one hundred feet and I was dead stopped on the runway with both gear burning, I had the Canopy open and no way to get down. I still had a tender back from the previous mentioned ejection so at that very moment jumping down from the cockpit with the nose gear fully extended didn't seem like an option I was ready to take. I looked down the runway and the fire trucks and other assorted traffic was hauling down the runway at warp speed. They had positioned them selves where they thought I would come to a normal stop at. I could still see the fire burning brightly, knew I had landed with little fuel and hoping the emergency gear would arrive before the plane really started burning and get me down.

As they passed the aircraft, I saw to my non believing eyes, no one making an effort to get out of any of the arriving equipment to open the step doors or pull out the lowest step, or place a ladder for me to climb down; both fire trucks went around the aircraft on both sides and hit the fires from the rear of the aircraft. For what seemed an eternity I sat on the edge of the cockpit and finally the fires died down and went out. It was then a fireman arrived at the cockpit area opened up the steps and I climbed down. It only took 1100 feet +/- for the shortest non arrested landing a Crusader had made while staying on the runway. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Larie Clark

1289
5 min alert called by the JO Junkroom.

Seems Dog Davidson had landed the Cod at max gross weight on last night recovery after a logistic run to Malta. At about 0200, the flight deck security watch noticed liquid dripping from the Cod and notified flight deck control.

Report had it that the PO1 supervisor, after tasting the liquid streaming out a vent hole, advised the Airman security watch "Son, that ain't hydraulic fluid, that's booze"

Think our squadron set an alert five record when we got the word. If we didn't clean out the Cod in record time we faced the wrath of God (Max Malan, Ship's XO). Don't know how many parachute bags got filled, but they was many.

Must admit I had great motivation to find a couple of parachute bags and hit the deck running. My roommate Red Riley and I had recently been put in hack for a party held in an adjacent stateroom. Seems Jim Pirotte (Vigi pilot grande), when he got an indication that Master-of-Arms was lurking in the area, came over to our room to hide out.

When old Max called our Skipper, Ed Crow, a advised that there had been a party in our stateroom, our ass was grass and we spent the next in-port period in hack. We didn't want to go that route again.

Bill Catlett

1290
Honest confession, good for the soul. Now that the statute of limitations has run out, it can be told: we enlisted pukes also had our ways and means of stowing alternate beverages on the boat. The attached photo shows my battle station, the place where I normally made my living aboard ship. It's a maintenance workbench used for repairing the seldom-if-ever-used AN/AAS-15 Infrared Detecting Set found in our F-8D Crusaders, circa 1964. Please notice the white ductwork at the top of the photo; that's part of the air conditioning system which cooled the Fire Control Shop on the O-3 level, starboard side, just below the island on the USS Coral Sea, CVA-43. The illegible masking tape inscription, done in Old English calligraphy, reads "Bless This Crummy Bench." I understand that there were only 2 air conditioned spaces on the ship, the Captain's cabin and our shop which was cooled for the sake of the equipment located there. The duct pictured had a removable inspection cover on its underside and on at least one occasion beer was stashed inside the duct where it was not only undetectable but also cooled. Scuttlebutt had it that one time the Old Man complained about the lack of airflow in his cabin, so arrangements were made to properly dispose of the contraband in rapid fashion. As far as the Skipper knew, it was just another successful maintenance operation.

Randy Kelso

1291
I was on the accident board on Hank Dodd's accident and like Jim Patton a good friend and classmate at TPS. Hank tried to eject but the cable from primary and second ejection handles was too long and failed to fire the seat. Very sad to lose a close friend in that fashion. In total, our TPS class 25 lost four members in quick fashion. Dave Hess #1 in our class in an F-104 on takeoff from Victorville. Pete Fitzpatrick in an A3J aka A-5 while riding in BN cockpit on another pilots fam flight (dumb requirement of Service Test Commander). John McNulty in spin F-4 when he closed canopy on his oxygen hose and passed out and crashed. Later on Pete Mongilardi was lost over N Vietnam. Five members out fifteen lost within a very short time.

Ciao, Nick Castruccio

1292
I'll add to Pete Peterson's crash. Pete and I both served in VF-142 and VF-132 together. We were in the night bounce pattern on runway 18L at Cecil. Pete had just barely gotten airborne after touchdown when the a/c nosed over and impacted the center line. The crash crew got him out of the cockpit and was taken to the NAS Jax hospital but to no avail. The accident board surmised that a possible factor was Pete seeing other a/c and thinking he was in a possible midair situation and pushing over. The UHT actuator makes more sense.

Jimmie Taylor

1293
Some days ago there was a discussion about the MK-4 gun pod, its reliability, and why did we have it. The subject rang a bell with me, because I was involved in its introduction into the weapons and air-to-air tactics training syllabus at VF-121(F4 RAG) in the late '60's. I was the Conventional Weapons Training Officer from September 1967-February 1969, and instructed in Basic and Advanced Air-to-Air combat maneuvering as well as conventional weapons delivery tactics. Sam Leeds was the Air-to-Air Tactics Training Officer and we worked to effect changes in the syllabus to achieve more effective utilization of time in the air. We combined the Basic ACM and Weapons syllabi and changed the advanced ACM syllabus to emphasize Sidewinder vice Sparrow as principal missile, assuming operations in an unsanitized airspace.

We deployed to Yuma for 10 days each month, where all of our flights were 3-plane go's, two students and an instructor chase, emphasizing VFR navigation, loose deuce maneuvering, and lookout doctrine, using the raked targets in the area as well as the live ordnance impact area at Chocolate Mountain. We had 10 aircraft and we made good use of a bunch of "lead-nosed" F4J's which VF-121 had in it's inventory (AWG-10 radar production was lagging). I headed those detachments each month while I was attached. Our Advanced tactics took place at NKX, and included dissimilar adversaries (TA4's and Crusaders), with the A4's being flown by our instructors and the F8's from VF-124. Our instructors were IUT'ed through both phases, a we had a group of excellent young guns.

Sometime in mid -1968, we were told that since the F14 was going to have a gun, the powers that be thought we should be training in air-to-air gunnery so we wouldn't end up with fighter pilots with no gunnery experience when the first Tomcat squadrons stood up. Since I was the only guy with gunnery experience in a fleet aircraft, I became the default head of the gunnery program. I knew that the MK4 existed, but I'd never seen one on an aircraft. So while the ordnance and supply guys, along with a group of Hughes reps took charge of the material side of things, we ginned up a syllabus. The drag chute compartment offered a good place to hook up a tow line, so we figured out the flight pattern parameters, and I took 4 guys and went out over the water, made one guy the tractor, set up a pattern, and made runs. We never carried centerline tanks at Yuma, so we strapped pods on all the aircraft and began our next deployment with the addition of a gunnery phase. After some dry runs withe the instructors we loaded ammo and went out to fire, or I should say, attempted to fire. As I recall we loaded 150 rounds each flight, and I went about 5 flights before I got more than one burst out. When you pulled the trigger and it went "kachunck" you knew you were done. The ordies and several Hughes reps were basically overhauling those guns every night. Some days we were successful. I fired out once and got 35 hits. Not bad for a fixed reticle sight. I don't know how long the gunnery continued. Sam and I both detached in late February '69 and went to Oceana squadrons. TOPGUN stood up in early March, but I don't know whether they did anything with it. I don't know if any NKX squadrons carried the pod in combat. As far as I was concerned, I'd take my 4000# of JP any day rather than the pod.

When I put this together, I recalled that my first F8 XO, Clyde Schindler, spent a couple of years in BUWEPS in the early '60's, so I called him up and asked him if he could enlighten me on how the acquisition of the MK4 transpired. He told me stuff I'd never heard before, but I guess I'd never asked. He said the MK4 gun system was designed and patented by a civilian employee at BUWEPS, whom he knew. The Navy was looking for a portable gun system which would use the Navy 20MM cartridge. The Navy cartridge was bigger than the Air Force cartridge, had hotter powder and better effective range, and the Navy had millions of rounds in storage. So Captain Whistler, head of that division, wanted to offer the pod to the Air Force as a competitor to the M61 pod. A shoot-off was arranged to take place at Eglin AFB. The pod would be carried on the F-100. Clyde just happened to know that his buddy from VF-124, Whitey Varner, was at that moment, detaching on orders to TPS, and he knew Whitey had experience in the F-100 as an exchange pilot, so a delay enroute was arranged, with a stop at Eglin and Whitey participated in the shoot-off. The M61 won. The comments from the Air Force include," the gun didn't perform to our standards, but the pilot was great!" The MK4 fired at an instantaneous 4000 RPM rate and with 2 barrels which meant 2000 RPM/barrel. The M61 had 6 barrels and fired at 6000RPM, which meant 1000/barrel, but it had to spool up to speed. The biggest problem was overheating, jamming, and stripping the rifling out. There as just too much going on in that pod. This all happened in 1963. So, the Navy ate 1200 pods. Maybe they've all gone on Ebay.

John Holm

1294
This is about the day that 10 RAG instructor Lts left Ron Ball (a new Lcdr) holding the bag as the VF-124 SDO during a change of command - I think it was when Bob Chew was being relieved by Bill Woods. Bruce Morehouse had donated an authentic Crusader sword to the squadron and it was going to be handed over during the change of command from the outgoing to incoming CO. We had planned a flyover in a sword formation to coincide with the above. Six F8s inline with one on either side abeam #5 to form the handle. Total of 8, but we decided we ought to have 2 airborne spares.

Following the sword formation flyover we circled up over Poway, the airborne spares joined us, and we then made individual passes over the parade ground. Bob Woodrow was leading the gaggle - he had briefed 350 knots @ 1000 ft. I was #5 and went right to 475 kts only to observe Dave Benson as #4 pulling away from me. So it was a little tap of the burner, then full MRT, droops up and aim for the podium at the parade ground. The tower was screaming to STOP ... PULL UP ... etc. When we eventually returned to the ready room, Ron Ball looked seriously bedraggled in his choker whites ... every one up the chain, the base CO, etc. had been chewing him a new one for our shenanigans. Others that I remember from that flight are Jack Kilpatrick, Andy Hill, and Phil Vampatella.

I heartily agree with all prior comments, Ron was an outstanding officer and pilot ... a fine gentleman. He is missed.

Tom Corboy

1295
The eloquent writings about Ron Ball's pilot skills, leadership abilities, and gentleman qualities have encouraged reflection upon the time aboard the Ticonderoga from 1964 to 1966 when I had the privilege of serving with Ron during two Westpac Cruises. Two specific flights stand out from the many others that I flew with him.

#1. One of my early real combat mission, if recollection serves me well these days, was, as a wild eyed Ensign (maybe early JG) Fighter pilot in VF-53, assigned to fly escort for Ron (VFP-63) on a night photo mission. During the brief, Ron made me feel confident and somewhat comfortable with he and the mission, however, the photo flare flashes and the red flashes from the ground, rapidly eroded the comfort level but, the confidence, Ron had instilled during the brief, as well as the flight going as briefed, remained high; a pleasure to fly his wing. Fast forward to April 1966, three days prior to leaving Yankee Station for CONUS:

#2. Again I was assigned to fly escort on a photo mission, to determine what type of AAA had been moved into the karst ridge area from which an aircraft was shot down, during egress from a raid on Hanoi, the day before. Since we had flown together many, many, times and the actual photo, over land, part of the mission was to take less then three minutes, Ron still instilled confidence even during the rather short briefing. I was to lead, ostensibly due to having a radar with which to pin point coast in location, then pop up to 500' passing lead, so Ron could take forward looking photos crossing the beach, breaking 90 degrees, take lateral photos, then 90 degrees again descending back down to wave tops and egress. BUT! On this day, neither the two carrier air wings joint, three or four mission raids into the North, with many different types of aircraft per mission, nor, rooster tail flat hatting, for some 30 minutes, diverted attention from our two F-8 Crusaders, for when we passed some fishing boats and popped up, the AAA lite up. Ron crossed the beach, with tracer going in several directions, then broke 90 degrees. While belly up to me a tracer crossed my nose entering the center of his aircraft (main fuel cell), immediately catching fire, so I broke radio silence with a couple of 'Ron?' pause, 'Ron?", then he finely said calmly, "I think I have been hit" which I confirmed by telling him he was on fire, go gate. Ron smoothly pulled around and down toward the water to get under the AAA and out to sea. Quickly passing the fishing boats and out of range of shore guns, then he started a smooth climb while I was calling for support and rescap. Approximately 3 or so thousand feet I told him that I could see through the aircraft, both main gear and hook were hanging out burning, and to think about getting out; he said "temp is going through 1000 degrees, "I'll see you back at the ship". The canopy came off, seat came out, aircraft explode within fraction of seconds and then the separation and beautiful chute. The rescue went well and as someone has said "the rest is history". May God comfort his family and friends!

Make it a Great Day!
Looking Upward,
Hal Loney

1296
LT Ron Ball Rescue

Dick and I were scheduled to fly together on 19 April 1966 and were being pre-positioned up north to support an Alfa Strike, a major attack incorporating a large number of aircraft, going into North Vietnam. We lifted off the deck of Yorktown at 0800 and headed first to Kitty Hawk (Pawtucket) for a logistics support mission before proceeding on assignment. That early launch, coupled with the nature of mission, made it obvious that we would be spending a long day in the air and as events unrolled, that assumption was absolutely correct.

When we launched that morning, there was no way of foretelling the events about to unfold, but we had someone with us to chronicle the entire day's activities. In a rare move we had been asked to fly an additional crewman with us, a CHINFO photographer, who was hoping for a chance to shoot some actual combat pictures of a rescue in the north. For our part, we were hoping he wouldn't get the chance.

After a short stop at Pawtucket, we lifted off and headed first to the south SAR station where we dropped off their mail about 1000 before heading on up for a day of fun and games with our old friends Coontz and Rogers.

We reached our North SAR destination where upon arrival we were informed that Harbor Master, the Task Unit Commander, had directed that we remain on station until 1800 when the last strike aircraft would be coasting out of Indian territory. At least now we had framed the events for the day, and it was going to be a long one, not less than ten hours any way we chose to look at it. Remembering my earlier experience with my admiral, I requested that they inform Yorktown of our tasking, and we settled in for the day.

We had grown to appreciate USS Rogers more than USS Coontz because they always treated us better. We pretty much had our option of which ship to refuel from, but fuel also meant food and drink. These were the guys who kept our batteries charged throughout the day.

We would say something like "Steel Hawser (Coontz), Big Mother is going to need gas in about thirty minutes. We'd appreciate some box lunches."

"Roger, Big Mother, we have bologna sandwiches today, and we'll get you some water." Bologna was not the term used throughout the navy for that variety of sandwich meat, however.

Almost immediately the radio would invariably come alive with another call.

"Big Mother, this is Bulls Eye (Rogers), we're preparing steak sandwiches for you right now. We'll be ready to receive you whenever you're ready. We've also got a gallon of bug juice for you to wash it down with."

Little wonder that we liked Rogers best, not that it made a lot of difference to either of them. Rogers was just a better run ship, at least from our stand point, and they were good at providing top notch service.

We had been on station for some time, when about 1530 we received a call from Steel Hawser.

"Big Mother six eight this is Steel Hawser, over."

"Steel Hawser this is Big Mother six eight, go ahead."

"Big Mother six eight this is Steel Hawser, be advised I'm painting an emergency squawk on my gadget, over."

Within seconds of that call we heard a May Day report from a Cork Tip aircraft over the Haiphong complex.

"Big Mother six eight this is Steel Hawser, your vector is three zero three at thirty eight miles. Cork Tip six zero one is down. We're trying to establish his exact location."

We picked up the directed vector and pushed the speed to red line.

"Steel Hawser this is Big Mother six eight; interrogative operation feet wet?" I asked.

What I was asking was whether we were going inland (feet dry) or would be operating over water (feet wet). Clearly we wanted to hear that we would be able to remain over the water because that significantly increased everybody's prospect of surviving this ordeal.

"Unknown at this time, Big Mother."

Looking at our charts and the vector we were given, it looked as if we were going inland, so I directed the crew to don parachutes and flack vest. We were too busy to be afraid of what lay ahead of us, but we were headed into Haiphong Harbor, one of the heaviest defended areas in all of North Vietnam. At that point we didn't know if we would have to take the downed pilot away from troops in downtown Haiphong or would we find him stroking out to sea in his raft. While mulling that over in our thoughts, our friends and protectors, the ever-present A-1 Skyraders joined on our port wing.

It would be impossible for me to adequately describe just how those powerful war birds, a beautiful sight under any circumstances, made us feel, even as we headed into the heart of Indian country. They were much like your American Express card. We didn't want to leave home without them. Our absolute survival depended on the skills and daring of those pilots, and I knew we were in good hands anytime they were around. I would trust them with my life, and I did.

"Woop, woop, woop, woop, woop." There was no other sound in the world like that of a survival radio beeper. We had heard it many times before, and it always meant the same thing; a pilot was down. The uniqueness of that sound was such that anytime I heard it, a shiver would crawl up my spine, even years after the war. Hearing that radio was great, though. We now had the ability to get an exact location. Dick switched the radio over to the ADF (automatic direction finding) position, and we watched as the needle swung around and pointed to the source of the signal. We knew the absolute course now, but we still didn't know if we would be operating over land or in the harbor.

Our second A-1 had sprinted ahead into the area and shortly thereafter, he reported that he was over the pilot who was in his life raft and appeared to be in good shape. He was feet wet but just barley. He was within half a mile of the beach and was located to the east of downtown Haiphong about eight miles away.

That was great news. The farther we could get from the Haiphong complex the better. To give us a little greater edge, it appeared God was on our side once more. As we approached the area, we ran into a fog bank. It was not very thick because the A-1 could see down through it from above, but that fog became our best friend. It kept the North Vietnamese from seeing us from afar. You can't shoot what you can't see.

We continued to follow the ADF needle right to the pilot. As we passed over him, he lit a day smoke to give us the wind line. Passing over him I pulled back on the stick and rolled hard as I kicked the rudders around. As I rolled the helicopter over on its side, I started to release the pressure on the stick and pushed the nose back toward the ground as we reversed direction. That wing over maneuver brought us back into the wind, what little there was, and lined us up on the survivor.

We could see land a short distance away from us, and the A-1's reported junks in the area although we could see none through the fog. It was obvious that someone could see us, or at least hear us, though. As we entered a hover, rounds started to hit the water around the area. Since I could not see who was shooting at me, I was reasonably confident that they were not an immediate threat. It was all small arms that even if we did take a hit, it would not likely knock us out of the sky. There was even a good chance they could not see us at all and were just shooting at the sound of the helicopter.

I brought the helicopter into a hover over the pilot who was still in his raft. That always caused a problem because the rotor wash pushed the raft across the water, at times with surprising speed.

"Pilot, after station; the survivor is still in his raft," my crewmen said.

"Roger, after station. I'll keep it in a high hover."

That meant I would hover at sixty-feet to limit rotor wash, but shortly after that, the after station called to say that we were too high. Not watching my instruments, I had inadvertently climbed to a ninety-foot high hover. Was there a littler adrenaline running through my body or what? Regardless, my mistake took valuable time, and time was the enemy. Fortunately for everyone, as I lowered the helicopter to the proper altitude, the pilot exited his raft. Shortly thereafter, we had him aboard.

By now the CHINFO photographer was shooting away and in the process, he got the first actual photos of a combat rescue in North Vietnam. The picture that was on virtually every major newspaper across the country showed Lieutenant Ron Ball looking up as he was being hoisted aboard Big Mother six eight. I told the lieutenant that we had just made him famous, but he had no idea what I was talking about.

Lieutenant Ball had been flying an RF-8, photo reconnaissance aircraft, from VFP-63 off USS Ticonderoga when he was shot down. He was on his last flight of the cruise and told me that as he sat on the catapult that day, he knew he was going to get "bagged." I don't know if it was last flight jitters or if he had a real premonition but for whatever reason, he was right. As he made his photo run across Haiphong, he was hit and had to eject. In his chute he saw his aircraft explode shortly after he exited.

We hoisted him into the helicopter within about twenty minutes of the shoot down, and I told the crew to sink his raft with the M-60 before we departed the area. I didn't want someone to see it and have us called back into that area to search for what we had already picked-up.

With that last chore taken care of, we headed to the relative safety of the open ocean. At that point, however, we got the call I did not ever want to hear.

""Big Mother this is Steel Hawser, bandit bearing two eight five at sixty-five miles, tracking one zero five degrees."

Suddenly those beautiful A-1's seemed terribly inadequate. By all appearances, we had a MIG coming after us, and there was nothing we could do about it except run. We headed back out to sea skimming off the top of the waves and going as fast as the helicopter could possibly go. The red line on our airspeed indicator was there for decoration only. We continued to get the bandit calls but in the end, the contact came to the beach and turned around with us never seeing him or him seeing us. That was just fine with me. Because of the considerable missile capability of USS Coontz, he did not want to come out over the water. Had he ventured just a little farther, the hunter would have become the hunted. That did little to settle my nerves until he turned back inland, however. I hate to think of myself as bait.

We returned to North SAR station with our wet but otherwise fine F-8 pilot. Since Rogers was our strongest supporter, I called them and requested a green deck for a passenger transfer to Bulls Eye. It was my intentions to drop Lieutenant Ball off because we would not be going off station for hours, and we could not keep him on board because there remained the possibility we would be going in yet another time before the day was over. There was another strike scheduled for later that afternoon.

"Big Mother six eight, this is Steel Hawser, over."

"Steel Hawser this is Big Mother, go ahead."

"Big Mother this is Steel Hawser, expect a green light on Steel Hawser not Bulls Eye on arrival."

The Squadron Commander had spoken. I had no choice but to deliver the survivor to Coontz. The problem then was that we thought Rogers was now going to sink Coontz.

As we continued to fly around that afternoon, I commented to the CHINFO photographer that it was too bad that he did not have a movie camera so he could have gotten the whole thing in motion.

"Don't worry about it," he said, "there will be someone out next month. He can get it then."

That guy had no idea just how lucky he had been, first to have just been present when we made a pick-up and secondly, that this had been a relatively easy pick up with little opposition, and he didn't get shot in the process. Clearly, our young photographer did not really appreciate what he had just been through. If he hung around with us long enough he certainly would, however.

It was late in the afternoon, just before dark, when we retrieved Lieutenant Ball for the flight back to the carrier. He had been treated to some dry clothes and pretty much wined and dined all afternoon. Now it was back to the real world of carrier aviation. USS Ticonderoga was a little more than an hour south of us, and they were waiting for the return of their pilot so they could depart Yankee Station. They were finally headed home after a tough deployment. When I reported in with them on the radio, I got exactly what I expected:

"Big Mother, this is Panther; expect a Charlie on arrival."

That meant I could expect to be cleared for an immediate landing just as soon as I got there, but I was ready for them, and it was my game now.

"Negative Panther. We don't intend to return your pilot without a suitable ransom."

"Roger Big Mother, what would you consider a suitable ransom?"

"Tower, we would consider a gallon of ice cream and five spoons just about right," I said.

When I set the H-3 down on Tico's deck, people welcoming Lieutenant Ball home surrounded us. As he exited the helicopter to a hero's welcome, a huge cake was shoved in the after station along with a five-gallon drum of ice cream. We launched into the inky night for the short flight over to Yorktown. We ate cake and ice cream, but by the time we finally landed, we had melted ice cream all over everything. Five gallons was just too much.

As we approached YORKTOWN I gave them a call. "Ocean Wave, this is Big Mother six eight at five miles for landing."

"Roger Big Mother. Your signal is delta."

We spent the next hour going in circles on the starboard side of the ship. When we were finally cleared to land, we had been strapped in those seats for eleven hours and twenty-five minutes. If that were not enough, when we got to our rooms, we found that the ship was on water hours and the fresh water had been turned off.

Bill Terry

1297
Guns on the F4. In 1967 I had a skipper, Alex Grosvenor, who was bound and determined to carry gun pods. There was resistance because the pods had not proved overly reliable and the Gattling gun pod was slow to spin up to its max firing rate. As I recall AirPac was not very supportive. Alex had exposure to the Hughes Gun Pod which had two barrels. They fired alternately and each opposed the other to absorb the shock associated with firing. The guns achieved their maximum firing rate immediately instead of having to spin up. The pod was mounted on center line and we carried wing tanks instead of a center line tank. This of course required frequent reconfiguring in order to carry whatever on a flack suppression or bombing mission. That created some negatives amongst various factions on the ship and in the air wing. I loved it especially on a weather recce along the coast. Anything headed south with a wake was fair game and disappeared. We carried it a few times on MIGCAP and TARCAP. Ultimately some supportability and maintainability issues for these Hughes Gun Pods caused them to be shelved.

About the time of TET I understand that the marines at DaNang or Chulai rigged some F4's to each carry 5 gattling gun pods. It raised hell when it fired.

Roger Box

1298
Mk-4 gun pod, which contained the Mk-11 smooth bore gun. This gun pod had a terrible reputation by everyone who used it. Even the Marines couldn't make it work reliably and the Marines were pretty good with guns. Back in 1970 when decisions were being made on F-14 configurations Hughes Aircraft made a big pitch for their Mk-11 gun to be used instead of the GE M-60 gatling gun, and complained they were not given a chance to compete. Op-05 agreed to evaluate the gun and sent the project to VX-4. My own personal project. We resurrected an F-8A from the bone yard and I flew it to Culver City where Hughes mounted two Mk-11 guns on the right side of the old F-8. By the way, this old F-8A was a pleasure to fly compared to the F-8J junk we had as the latest and greatest. Anyway, I flew this newly gunned F-8A back to Pt. Mugu where we tested it against a M-60 mounted in a SU-23 gun pod hung on an F-4J. We all considered this evaluation a waste of time. Many hours of data from the AF on the Gatling gun, we knew it was what we wanted, this project was just to stifle Hughes's complaints. Tech reps (two) from GE oversaw handling their M-60. I had one E-4 (busted a couple of times from E-6) who handled the Mk-11 guns in the F-8A. We did a lot of banner firing after boresighting both guns. SU-23 pod on the F-4 was not good for air to air. Maybe if you had a Bear target but very hard to hit a banner or Dart. Even Jim Foster's Super Dart which was about the size of an F-4. The Mk-11's in the F-8 fired out 100% on every hop I flew it. Accuracy about the same as the standard F-8 Mk-12's. On the other hand, the M-60 had several failures, mostly feed link separation and on one memorable flight the M-60 lost the barrel fitting which tied the six barrels together. When it vibrated off the barrels splayed out and resulted in seven round being fired into my plane. Thankfully none hit anything critical. One clipped off the O2 bottle fittings and others caused several red lights to illuminate. The old Mk-11's performed without a failure. Head scratcher for us all. The E-4 took caring for his Mk-11 guns as a personal challenge. For example, he went to a Hughes school on the gun. Every bullet was tracked to exactly the same position in a belt. Every round was washed with a paint brush full of grease. This E-4 showed me what effort was required if you wanted the Mk-11 to work. Our GE reps kind of watched things without getting their hands dirty. No surprise there is no substitute for tender love and care of any guns.

Now, the dilemma, all my data showed the Hughes gun superior to the M-60. I knew this was a wrong answer. We added everything up using some creative math and reported the M60 the more Operational Suitable. The F-14 got an M60 and my old F-8A was placed on a pedestal by the Miramar gate. Now replaced by a tank.

Bob Heisner

1299
portrayal of Bob Aumack in "Over the Beach", an interesting book which unfortunately has more than a few distortions and inaccuracies.

Bob was the squadron XO and I was a J.O. on the opposite end of the VF-162 food chain, so I was not privy to some of what went on behind the scenes. However, I can say that pilots who knew a thing or two about flying airplanes and/or could recognize leadership when they saw it, held Bob in high regard. Even though everyone slated to become a squadron commander undergoes leadership training, not every one of them actually understands what it means. Bob "got it", so to speak. Here are two of my memories of Bob Aumack.

A 35 plane Alpha Strike on a major bridge in Haiphong encountered unusually intense SAM and AAA defenses. While dodging a series of SAMS, the strike leader became disoriented and lost sight of the target. His wingman, an ensign, took control of the strike group, led the Alpha Strike to the target, and scored a direct hit on the bridge with his pair of 2000 pound bombs. He was recommended for the Distinguished Flying Cross. It was denied at the ships medals award board by a Commander who said, "Ensigns don't get DFC's". This Commander was away from the ship when the medal's award board met the following month and Bob Aumack was the temporary replacement. Bob resubmitted the DFC recommendation and it was awarded as it should have been; outraging the less-than-well-respected Commander who denied it the month before but endearing Bob to everyone else in the Airwing. Bob knew right from wrong.

I also remember the day Bob Aumack held his first AOM after taking command of the squadron. We had been saddled with plenty of petty squadron instructions, many of them aimed at restricting the junior pilots. Bob announced that squadron instructions restricting pilots based on their rank were immediately rescinded. Then he asked every pilot to look down at the wings on their chest, reminding us that this was not the U.S. Air Force. The CO's wings were just like the wings on the most junior pilot. Squadron pilots (and their flying ability) were no longer going to be judged by their collar insignia. I wasn't the only pilot able to recognize a leadership moment when we saw one. Naturally, we responded to the trust and respect he showed for his squadron pilots with positive results.

The man described in "Over the Beach" is not the man I know as Bob Aumack.
Bob Walters

1300
Many, many thanks for the recap! [Ron Ball rescue.] And although it's quite long past due, please accept my personal thanks for always being there! I never needed you thankfully, but it was a real comfort knowing you were there if I did!!!

Cheers, Ron Coalson

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