gatrtalz 12

Gator Tales - Page 12 - 1101 - 1200

Wreckage on Monkey Mtn, SVN

http://www.milspeak.org/Monkey.htm

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

1101
Ref. Hal Terry's F-8 gone wild, post-ejection.... the Shang must have attracted such things. We had a Bear launch on the way over to the Med somewhere around '56 or '57, couple fighters and a photo. There were at least two Bears inbound, which took turns flying by the boat. Then the photo developed a problem -- throttle disconnect, which meant an ejection was coming up. Discussion on the radio was obviously monitored by the Bears, because they politely motored off over the horizon. The decision was for the photo to eject overhead the ship (he was down to about 1-2000' by this time), which he did, and floated down to a point about 5 o'clock and 1/2 mile from the ship. The helo didn't dare go after him though, because the a/c kept making circles around the area, popping in and out of some popcorn cumulus that was around, almost as if it was looking for its missing driver. From the platform it looked like the thing might eventually land on his head. But, eventually we saw it pop out of clouds maybe a mile beyond where he was swimming and splash down. Helo then went in for the pickup, and as soon as they radioed back that they had the pilot aboard, the Bears returned.

I can't remember who was flying the photo, or the fighters; maybe someone in the group can. Apparently shooting it down was not an option; had to stay loaded for Bear?

Dave Johnson

1102
Regarding escorting the Bears--I remember one of their tricks was to let an F8 get on their wingtip, slowly descend and then turn into the F8--trying to drag them into the water.

I also seem to remember that on his last cruise on the Shang, Dave Johnson had amassed a mind blowing 69 night traps--and had hoped to end it that way. Fate had it that he was in the ready 5 one night when a Bear came our way--so he ended up with 70.

R Crist Berry

1103
The VFP-62 ejection that Dave Johnson recently mentioned was during the Shangri-La's transit to the Med in November 1967. The date was November 21, 1967. The VFP-62 pilot who ejected was Gary Adams who was safely recovered. Dick Louden was the A-4 tanker pilot and our XO Sam Hubbard and I were the VF-62 pilots that were launched to intercept and escort the Bears. I remember sitting behind the cats before launch and thinking that although it was fairly clear there was significant wind and the deck was pitching a lot for flight ops. My thought while sitting there was really something like "How in the hell are we going to be able to land with the deck pitching like this?" In Fact at the end of the hop although the deck was really pitching badly as I intercepted the glide path, someone must have been looking out for me because the deck suddenly steadied out when I was "in close" and did not pitch significantly again until after I was on deck and we all landed with incident!

Warmest regards, Al Fancher

1104
I wasn't on the bridge during Al's recovery, but, while standing a JOOD watch, I witnessed Capt Coogan order a maneuver that steadied a pitching deck for about 15 seconds during a night recovery. He watched the PLAT, and at about 3/4 mile ordered 5 degrees right rudder. As soon as the bow started to swing right he then ordered 5 degrees left rudder. At that point, the ship would give a slight shudder and the deck would steady out.

Jack Musitano (aka Moose)

1105
As Captain in VMF-451 flying FJ-4s out of Atsugi we found Bears over the sea of Japan and we all having newly bought canon's and Nikon's startred picturing them. Got back to the AIr Force in Tachikawa and they sent down six Canon's for us to use. We still took our own!

Buck Peck

1106
Here's the story of the two RF-8s destroyed in an explosion on the wash rack at VFP-63 in December 1977. Det 1 had just returned from a WESTPAC cruise on USS Constellation. Our three RF-8s (146827, 146865, and 146883) were to undergo the P-420 engine upgrade mod, and two (NG 610 and 612) were on the wash rack getting all of the salt off of them. Our Det personnel were mostly on liberty/leave having just returned from a 7 1/2 month deployment. The fuel farm had sent a defueling truck over to defuel both airplanes. Unfortunately, the truck had JP-4 in it from a previous defueling (of an Air Force airplane) and did not have the proper baffling installed. When the JP-5 was mixed with the JP-4, an explosion occurred, or so we were told by the Navy investigators. The explosion destroyed the truck, and, sadly, both F-8s. Now, these F-8s had been meticulously maintained by the Det 1 maintenance crew led by Senior Chiefs Cook and Massey (a veteran of 20 WESTPAC deployments, all in F-8s!) and Chief Park. They had been through the corrosion control program at Cubi Point and were in terrific shape. They had survived a WESTPAC cruise unscathed only to be destroyed on the wash rack. All of us in Det 1 were heartbroken, the Chiefs especially. The amazing thing is that no one was seriously injured. However, like all F-8 stories, this has a humorous ending. Apparently, the VFP-63 maintenance Master Chief was sitting in the Number 1 stall in the first deck Head and not having much luck. The explosion lofted a huge section of the fuel truck high into the air, and it came down through the roof, the second deck, and the first deck of Hangar 2 landing in the Head right in front of the Master Chief. After a hasty evacuation, he got up, climbed over the wreckage, and emerged a changed man, and about 5 pounds lighter.

Moon Rivers

1107
That's right. Two Det One RF8's burned on the wash rack which was next to the roadway in front of the Fightertown hangar at NKX. I was on the accident board, and this is what I remember. Det One had just returned from cruise in late 1977 as I recall. The planes were side by side on the wash rack to be defueled for some reason. During the defueling process, the truck exploded. It unzipped at the rear tank weld throwing shrapnel into the ACMR trailers nearby and dumping flaming JP under the planes. A raging inferno followed that inflicted strike damage to both aircraft. There were a number of maintenance folks and others in the immediate area, and the fact that no one was seriously injured was nothing short of a miracle. So we have two Alpha damaged planes and that means there must be an accident board. That's fine, except this was really a defuel truck accident and we had no idea were to begin. We needed experts, and it turns out they reside at the Navy Research Lab in Washington. A few days later this rather nerdy looking scientist shows up. He takes one look at the truck and says, "I know what happened". It seems this "defuel" truck was actually a converted fuel truck that simply had its pump reversed. No other plumbing was changed, and this meant that the fuel was dumped into the tank from the top. This splash filling of a mostly empty tank created friction and what the NRL guy described as an ionized cloud of fuel which eventually explosively discharged. The truck contained some JP4 prior to the defueling. The planes had JP5 since they had just flown off the Connie. Although JP5 is less volatile than JP4, the resulting mixture of the two fuels was actually a more volatile cocktail. Now comes the astounding part. The Air Force previously had two such incidents and had figured out that converting fuelers to defuelers was a bad idea. The NRL guy knew this, but somewhere the ball got dropped and the info hadn't got where it needed to get on the Navy side.

I don't remember the Bunos and others may be able to add more color or correct my failing memory. Anyone have a picture?

John Peck

1108
At one point all dets were deployed, and there were no RF8's in the home guard. We were all sitting around the ready room, wondering when the next bird was getting here from NARF. The squadron tactical freq comes alive, and this ferrry pilot has landed at Miramar and wants to know where our flight line is. We asked him where he is parked, and he says he parked just east of hanger two. Our comment was. "You're it".

Went through my log books and checked out the airframes (RF8's) and found that I had flown at least 76 of the 144 RF8's the Navy bought during the ten years I was in the squadron. Including 146858.

Scott Ruby

1109
[USS Oriskany]

26 OCTOBER 1966

Alexander, Balisteri, Blakely, Boggs, Brewer, Bullard, Carter, Clements, Copple, Dilks, Donahue, Dyke, Ewoldt, Farris, Ford, Francis, Fryer, Gardner, Garrity, Gray, Hammond, Harris, Hart, Hudis, Hyde, Johnson, Juntilla, Kelly, Kern, Lee, Levy, Liste, McWilliams, Merrick, Miller, Morrisette, Nussbaumer, Shanks, Shifflett, Siebe, Smith, Spitzer, Stone, Strong, Tardio, Thomas, Tunick, Walling, Welch, Welsh.

Fifty officers and men, shipmates united in a deadly battle for the freedom of a desperate people, serving thousands of miles from their homes and families, dedicated to their oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States of America ... now only names on a wall ... killed while struggling valiantly to save their ship ... written out of the history of the nation they loved by a media not worthy to kiss their feet ... forgotten by all save their family, friends, and God.

Memories of the 26th of October 1966, the explosion and fire aboard USS Oriskany on Yankee Station in the Tonkin Gulf, and the men who perished there will soon die with those of us who survived; but they are forever enshrined in the Heavens where most of them once soared so high as to "reach out and touch the face of God."

Very respectfully submitted,
Dick Schaffert

1110
[26 October]

One year to the day later we found ourselves over the Hanoi power plant. Oct 26 is just not the best day. Each year I remember all of our losses most poignantly on this day. While I was new to VF111 at the time (10 BARCAPS!! [thanks Dick]) I treasure each every moment I had with these great men.

Best,
Al Aston

1111
Songs to remember: Quite often "Going Downtown" would come up on BARCAP or even STRIKE frequency. I preferred Redman Best's harmonica version - but top this if you can - San Diego Civic Center auditorium, circa 2005, Petula Clark in concert and after the performance she stayed around to take questions from the audience. I asked her if she knew her probably most famous song had been used to boost Naval Aviator morale on Yankee Station. She asked me to explain what Yankee Station meant. Long story short, this ancient fighter pilot was invited to the stage for a good old fashioned English kiss. If you've never had one, give it a try! Witnessed by my wife, and Hungarians never lie.

Brown Bear

1112
3 December 2012

Bush to honor fallen Vietnam Veteran during Army-Navy game

By BILL WAGNER Staff Writer Annapolis Capital

Charles Silva served his country with distinction for 12 years. A naval aviator, Lt. Silva flew F-8 Crusader fighter jets during the Vietnam War and was particularly proud to have been the pilot who delivered top-secret documents to Washington, D.C. during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Silva did not deserve to die the way he did, especially considering his background as a decorated veteran. The Virginia resident was murdered by three youths after telling them they were trespassing and could not ride their all-terrain vehicles on private property he served as caretaker for.

The 77-year-old Silva was beaten and kicked so severely he suffered brain damage, lapsed into a coma and never came out. He passed away Oct. 23, just over a month after the attack.

Former Navy football player Chris Reaghard, a 1995 graduate, was a friend of the family and wanted to do something to recognize Silva. Reaghard reached out to current Navy players to see if any might be willing to wear Silva's service patch as a tribute to the deceased veteran.

In the weeks leading up to the Army-Navy game, various service patches are laid out on a huge table in the equipment room so players can pick those they want sewn on their jerseys for the annual showdown. Senior safety Tra'ves Bush read a letter from Reaghard about the situation surrounding Silva's death and was moved.

"After I read the letter, it was kind of a no-brainer to wear Mr. Silva's patch. I wanted to do this to honor him and his family," Bush said. "It's not a big deal to me what patch I wear, but for them it means a lot. This is a way to keep a veteran's memory alive. It feels good that something as small as one of us wearing a man's patch during the Army-Navy game can uplift a family and be a great remembrance of him."

Capt. Reaghard still serves in the Navy and lives in Norfolk, Va. He met Lt. Silva through a neighbor who is his niece and the two had naturally talked about their Navy service. He learned that Silva flew combat missions from the USS Ranger, an aircraft carrier commissioned in 1957. Reaghard was familiar with that ship because a relative had also served aboard her.

"Lt. Silva was a real humble, down-to-earth man. That a veteran who fought for our country would die at the hands of the very United States citizens he put his life on the line to protect is just sickening," Reaghard said. "When I heard what happened, I was irate. I could not believe that three young punks would jump a 77-year-old like that."

Reaghard was thrilled that Bush, a two-year starter at safety, would pay tribute to Lt. Silva by wearing his F-8 Crusaders patch. "It means a lot to the family that Tra'ves would do this and I want to personally thank him for it," Reaghard said. "I contacted Tra'ves through Facebook and told him I'll take him out to dinner or do something else nice if he ever gets to Norfolk."

Bush, who just received his service assignment of surface warfare, believes he will probably be stationed in Norfolk initially. The South Carolina native, who leads Navy with 76 tackles, said the fact he could honor a deceased veteran such as Silva in this way is another example of the far-reaching impact of the Army-Navy game.

"It goes beyond the rivalry between the teams. Worldwide, people are watching this game and it means so much to so many people," he said. "It's little things like this that bring more meaning to the game."

Ken Silva said his father played college football at Brown University and enrolled in Officer Candidate School after graduating. Upon retiring from the Navy, the elder Silva settled in Chesapeake, Va., where he served as company pilot for Van Sumner Inc., a tennis court construction company.

Silva eventually bought the company, which owned a significant amount of property near the Hampton Roads Airport in Chesapeake. It was that land that Silva was preparing for hunting season when he ran across the youths that took his life.

Ken Silva, who lives in New Brownfels, Texas, said one suspect has been arrested and charged with felony assault by mob. Police are still investigating and additional murder charges may eventually be filed.

The younger Silva said he was overcome with emotion when Reaghard informed him that Bush would be wearing his father's service patch in the Army-Navy game.

"That Tra'ves would agree to honor my dad in that special way brought tears to my eyes. It is an incredible tribute and our whole family is very humbled by it. I couldn't think of a great tribute to my dad," Ken Silva said. "I plan to sit down and write a letter to Tra'ves that truly expresses how honored we are that he would do this."

Wearing service patches is a tradition in the Army-Navy game and there are all kinds of stories behind why players choose a particular patch. Senior linebacker Brye French will be wearing the SEAL patch of Brendan Looney, the former Naval Academy lacrosse player who was killed in a helicopter crash over Afghanistan. Senior slotback John Howell, who is dressing for the Army-Navy game despite having suffered a season-ending knee injury, will wear the Marine Corps patch of former Navy football player J.P. Blecksmith, who was the first officer killed in Operation Phantom Fury during Operation Iraqi Freedom II.

1113
19 December 2012

Number Name    Operated F8     Vietnam Call Sign       Nickname
1       Langley
2       Lexington
3       Saratoga
4       Ranger
5       Yorktown                        Scarlet Base
6       Enterprise                      Red Base/Reaper/Sniper
7       Wasp                    Black Base
8       Hornet                  Blue Base
9       Essex                   Undermine/Banknote
10      Yorktown                        Cactus/Steamboat/Ocean Wave
11      Intrepid                        Atlas/Carmel    Fighting "I"
12      Hornet                  Wimpy/Judo
13      Franklin                        Dixie
14      Ticonderoga     Yes     Yes     Panther Fighting Tigers
15      Randolph                        Johnstown
16      Lexington       Yes             Mohawk/Spartan Lady Lex
17      Bunker Hill
18      Wasp                    Rebel/Hellbender/Bloodshot
19      Hancock Yes     Yes     Rampage Hanna
20      Bennington                      Big Boy/Circus
21      Boxer                   Buzzsaw
22      Independence                    Cupid
23      Princeton
24      Belleau Wood
25      Cowpens
26      Monterey
27      Langley
28      Cabot
29      Bataan
30      San Jacinto
31      Bon Homme Richard       Yes     Yes     Rocket/Trust Fund       Bonnie Dick
32      Leyte
33      Kearsarge       Yes             Wildcat
34      Oriskany        Yes     Yes     Sea Lord/Child Play     Big O/O Boat
35      Reprisal
36      Antietam        Yes             Eskimo
37      Princeton
38      Shangri-La      Yes             All Star        Shang
39      Lake Champlain                  Nighthawk
40      Tarawa
41      Midway Yes     Yes     School Boy
42      Franklin D. Roosevelt                   Riptide Rosie/Roach Boat
43      Coral Sea       Yes     Yes     Barktree/Mustang        Cora/Coral/Maru
44      Canceled
45      Valley Forge                    Cherry Tree
46      Iwo Jima/canceled and scrapped
47      Philippine Sea                  Onion Skin
48      Saipan
49      Wright
50      Canceled
51      Canceled
52      Canceled
53      Canceled
54      Canceled
55      Canceled
56      Canceled
57      Canceled
58      United States/canceled and scrapped
59      Forrestal       Yes     Yes     Handbook/Bullhorn       Fidlip/Forest Fire/FID
60      Saratoga        Yes             Fairfield       Sara
61      Ranger Yes     Yes     Grey Eagle/Spitfire     Top Gun
62      Independence    Yes     Yes     Gun Train       Indy
63      Kitty Hawk      Yes     Yes     Pawtucket/Panther       The Hawk
64      Constellation   Yes     Yes     War Chief       Connie
65      Enterprise      Yes             Climax Big E
66      America Yes             Courage/Broadsword
67      John F Kennedy Yes             Eagle Cliff     JFK
68      Nimitz                  Old Salt
69      Dwight D. Eisenhower                    Freedom
70      Carl Vinson                     Gold Eagle
71      Theodore Roosevelt                      Rough Rider/Big Stick
72      Abraham Lincoln                 Union
73      George Washington                       Spirit of Freedom
74      John C. Stennis                 Courage
75      Harry S. Truman                 Lone Warrior
76      Ronald Reagan                   Citadel
77      George H. W. Bush                       Avenger
78      Gerald R. Ford
R98     Clemenceau      Yes
R99     Foch    Yes

1114
Clemenceau and Foch were always (as far as I still can remember!!!) called by the last letters of their international sign, Alpha Whisky for Clem and Quebec Alpha for Foch. Yours. JPR.

Jean-Pierre Robillard

1115
Good list from Gary. Nicknames are always tenuous--different strokes different folks thing. FDR did not list FDR and my favorite- Foul Dirty Rusty. CV-42 did make one Vietnam deployment '66? VA-12 with A-4s, imagine there were F-8s also.

CVN-69 of course was IKE and Vinson called 'Star Ship' when new.

Big omission, sez this Intrepid vet, 3 VN combat tours as CVS(A)-11 '66,67,68 with F-8 and RF-8 dets onboard. det from VF-111 in 67 included Tooter, Nargi, Hoser and Wenzel. Hoser and Nargi repeated next year as well.

YA, Boom
Boom Powell

1116
A few boats I trapped on. Call signs changed over the years, for example the Hawk took Tico's sign Panther when Tico was decommissioned. They didn't care for Pawtucket and I don't blame them. When Yorktown CV-10 came out the old CV-05 sign Cactus was used to try to confuse Japanese. Why we ever hung on to the more woosie sounding signs like City Desk, School Boy etc is beyond me.

CV-10 Yorktown                    Cactus
CV-11 Intrepid Carmel (Atlas)
CV-14 Ticonderoga Panther
CV-19 Hancock                    Rampage
CV-20 Bennington               Circus (Big Boy)
CV-31 Bon Homme Richard         Rocket
CV-33 Kearsarge                  Wildcat
CV-34 Oriskany                     Sea Lord (Childs Play)
CV-36 Antietam                     Eskimo
CV-41 Midway                     School Boy
CV-42 FD Roosevelt           Rip Tide
CV-43 Coral Sea                 Mustang (Barktree)
CV-59 Forrestal                   Bull Horn (Handbook)
CV-60 Saratoga                 Fairfield
CV-61 Ranger                     Grey Eagle (Spitfire)
CV-63 Kitty Hawk Pawtucket (Panther)
CV-64 Constellation          War Chief
CVN-65 Enterprise            Climax
CV-66 America                  Courage (Broadsword)
CV-67 JF Kennedy Eagle Cliff

Bob Heisner

1117
In 1956, the FDR's (CVA 42) call sign was "Youngstown" or something close. I remember this because ops sent me out as a weather plane alone after I finished my quals in an AD-6 (VMA 225). I didn't like being alone 100 miles from the boat over the Atlantic but they promised to continually monitor my position.

You can imagine my dismay when my engine quit at 10,000 feet and I called "mayday" in a rather high pitched voice and the response was, "what is your present position?"

I fell in love with kneeboard checklists that day, noting "turn on carburetor heat." At 2000 feet my engine coughed, sputtered and then caught. What I said to the senior officer in ops upon return was not recorded nor held against me.

John Powers

1118
I agree with Norm Gandia; the F-8 would have been a great Blue Angels aircraft. I flew air shows in the Thunderbird F-8 and with the P420, it was truly awesome and could do anything. I flew almost the same routine in the F-8 that I flew in the F-18 air shows I flew while at VX-4. I replaced the short take-off roll into a 1/2 Cuban Eight on take-off in the F-18 routine with the low transition the F-8 could do better than any other, into a 1/2 Cuban Eight. Everything else was almost the same: knife edge, 4 point, inverted (10 second limit), horizontal rolls, horizontal hi-g 360 turn, loop, dirty pass followed by wing up climb, high speed pass into vertical rolls. It would have been a great solo airplane and the hard lighting J-57 added noise at any point in the routine.

While in VF-211, Phil Colson (Toro), Gene Brotherton (Cowboy) and I flew section supersonic formation passes over the ship for airshows and without a doubt a good stable formation aircraft. We flew with nose down trim dialed in to avoid the dead-band and the potential for PIO and it seemed good. Without a doubt, the A-4 was a superb Blue Angels aircraft, but the flight control system had to be completely redesigned. In my opinion, formation landings would have been challenging, but the team doesn't perform formation landings in the Hornet and only the hard core Ex's complain.

In summary, the F-8 would have been great! My two cents, Hoss.

Hoss Pearson

1119
I have to agree with Norm about that the F-8 would have made a good show plane. I never knew there was a problem getting close. If you were close wing transition was not a problem. A/B lights same. Most of my time was in the -2NE perhaps earlier models were somehow different. Only downside argument for a Blues F-8 was that only F-8 pilots could fly it for airshows. Poor Tink and Spook pilots would be cut out. All the more reason to use it. Accident rate would be a tad high but night 27C rate would still be higher and that didn't stop us. Let those who wanted to live forever fly P-3s.

Good airshow planes need three things, Noise, smoke, and danger (imminent chance of an accident). F-8 had all in spades. IMHO our worst choice was the quiet, safe little Tink that anyone could fly with a one hour Fam ride. I like the current F-18s but they don't look very dangerous. I don't think any airplane will ever match the F-11 or the guys who flew them. Now those were the days.

Bob Heisner

1120
This one was great to watch...

Will Gray's comment wondering about how the Blues' F-8 would handle a loop on takeoff brought this tale from the crypt.

It was the late Spring of 1962 and the nascent days of NATOPS, where one could sense at PaxRiver, hull down on the horizon, the twilight of flying-everything-you-could-get-your-hands-on.

Newly added to the TPS fleet was a tired F-8U-1E (F-8B). We of Class 32, then the next class to graduate, were the first to get the opportunity to fly it. Of three in the class who had F-8 time--John Holtzclaw, Jim Flatley and Whitey Varner--Whitey, senior-one of the first and only TPS class of O-3s ever, and a well-known instructor late of VF-124, got the nod. Because it was Whitey's first flight in the F-8 at TPS, the concerned word came down from on high that he must have a chase, which in this case turned out to be an aging F-11 with TPS instructor Bill Kelly aboard. This odd match brought forth a large audience to the ramp where we could get a full view of runway 31.

Whitey lined up left, Bill right. Blam!...down the runway the F-8 raced. Whomfp...onward the F-11 trundled. Soon we saw a plan view of a F-8 at the end of the runway, then climbing high overhead and starting back downhill toward the upwind end of 31 where the F-11 had just become airborne. And as the gear doors of the F-11 slammed shut, Whitey joined gracefully on Bill's right wing. So much for the chase.

Pete Purvis

1121
Can you just imagine what a Blue Angel F8 diamond takeoff would look like when the leader calls for "wings down -- now" It would probably look like four hound dogs jumping out of a pickup truck going down the road a forty miles an hour.

It wouldn't be pretty.

Phil Wood

1122
Ref. VF-84: do any Boomerangs recall a Rota fly-in being greeted by the Jolly Rogers, or vice-versa? John Nichols related such an incident resulting in a 12 v 12 furball: "Best dogfight I was ever in!"

Barrett Tillman

1123
The fur-ball with VF-84 and VF-62 at Rota must have been during the 1963 Med Cruise. I recall going to Rota and the Rota O Club and fishing off their pier, but I was still a junior pilot and was not involved in the fur ball. I flew in from the Shang later to relieve one of the other pilots. I also remember the story about a VF-84 pilot going straight in after a tuck under break. I saw the picture of the aircraft just as its nose was impacting the runway. That was a photo you just don't forget.

Jim Brady

1124
The fur ball was in early 1961. I was in VF84 at the time.

As I recall the tuck under accident occurred in the break at Rota when the pilot rolled 180 degrees and pulled. He should have rolled 270 degrees before pulling. The result was the aircraft going straight in. Film revealed that it was not a roll then pull it was a roll and the back stick applied early in the roll. It was a sad day and 6th fleet ordered the squadron to cease demos.

Roger Box

1125
VF-124 had an Airshow Team, circa 1964/65. The leader was Robbie Roberts, I was left wing, Russ Bortnem, right wing, Don Baker was slot. At the Miramar Air Show '64 ... We made a division takeoff. At show time we approached Rnwy 24 at 400kts. Robbie pulled to vertical and called " we're vertical, break now" left and right wings rolled 90 degrees and pulled over the top into a Split-S, Don in slot rolled 180 and continued into a Split-S ... Robbie continued over the top into a Split-S, we all hit the Fuel Dump Switch over the top. Poor man's Fleur-d-Lis. We didn't do the Cross-Over. We joined up and made a right echelon division landing ... Even the Blues thought we were "pretty fair" ... and nobody died. In response to Phil Wood, on Robbie's call at "Wing-Down" all went well. Happy New Year All!

Larry (Hook) Miller

1126
Who didn't love flying the F-8 in formation? Back in my Hud'n Hud'n days, our Red Flash ONE, aka Jim Ryan, faithfully briefed and flew us back to the ship and/or Cubi Pt in the most beautiful diamond you'd ever see. (brag) I always flew slot. Didn't you just love the feel of the lead's jet wash battering your vertical tail?

Here's another confirmation of Alsie's comments on tightness of the wing position and another story similar to Frank Corah's. (Only I didn't get a plaque) Hey Rod Parker, are you listening? I think we were doing a position change into a right echelon for the break at Cubi. I felt a heaviness in the stick trying to ease to the right when glancing to the right I almost had cardiac arrest when I saw Rod's MODEX 200 so close to my cockpit it was huge like if I could reach out I could touch it. Questions like where are the rest of our airplanes ran through my mind. "Rod", I whispered on the UHF, not wanting to startle him as his gaze was fixed on the Skipper. Nothing. Shit, wtf now? I adjusted my rear view mirror. Holy Shit! My starboard wing was over his port wing outer wing panel and tucked nicely under his port UHT. With a very soft touch, I instinctively eased the left rudder pedal and wouldn't you know it our F-8's slid apart nicely with barely a wing wobble.

After landing uneventfully and shutting down, I casually walked over to Rod and asked if he was OK? Then I showed him his port UHT whose outer edge panel was hanging down. Now I had his attention and showed him my starboard wing leading edge droop that had a wrinkle and a scratch, I thought he'd faint dead away. Crap. If it wasn't for the blemishes that the plane captains would eventually find, we could have gotten away with the most gentle mid-air collision ever. Oh Skipper ...!!!

Joe (Brillo) Phaneuf

1127
In response to Phil's comment, I want to remind him how truly amazing a well flown section low-transition take-off in the F-8 looked. By far the most impressive of anything in the fleet! The reason F-8's were at the top of my dream sheet coming out of VT-26 was a section go by two USMC F-8's on a Saturday morning out of Beeville; just awesome. We all forget how really good the F-8 was and how far ahead of its time performance wise. I stand by my earlier two cents worth that the F-8 would have been a great bird for the Blues and agree with one of the earlier comments, the "Team" would have worked out all of the quirks, just like with every other aircraft they have flown.

Hoss Pearson

1128
I have made a few section take offs--one in particular I remember. However, I wasn't the best wingman. On command, "wing down"-I didn't wing down- and I didn't follow my lead into the ground. I stepped up. But after lead bounced off the ground, which gave him some upward velocity, the seat came out, one swing of the chute and lead survived the last rites given to him on the ground, albeit some rocks ground in the bottom of his seat pack.

Trying to remember the Fur Ball. I too was in VF 84 at the time. It must have been while VF 84 was at Rota. 60-61 cruise, like Roger said. That could explain all the aircraft at Rota at that time and the other squadron just coming into the Med. to relieve us. Maybe that was the situation.

Ray Slingerland

1129
F-8 section takeoff out of Olathe on Don McCambridge's wing, just after Wing transition "B-utiful!" from the tower.

Bill Quinn

1130
Returning to Cecil on John Damian's right wing in the early '60's, F8D's, I got too close to his airplane during the left turn into the Break. When he rolled wings level his wing tip almost hit the top of my airplane. I recall easing the throttle back to adjust my position when he suddenly made the break. I felt a thump as he broke which I mistakenly thought was wash from his wing, and then I made the break since a fan break had been briefed.

The turn downwind and on final felt normal. During rollout on the runway I then noticed that John's airplane right UHT was dragging on the runway but still attached at the fuselage. My left wing tip was bent up.

The UHT and the outer wing panel were replaced and both aircraft put back in service.

Hall Martin

1131
I concur with Hoss Pearson concerning F8's as a good fit for the Blue Angels. We've all been in squadrons which had air show teams and they were always impressive. While we all liked to fly tight parade formation and several of us have shared Brillo's experience with wing/UHT crunches it wasn't necessary to fly that tight. I believe a F8 diamond flown with little or no wingtip overlap looked better from the ground and lessened the mid-air crunch possibility. After much discussion on the subject of formation flying, I wonder how many have been involved in a covey catapult launch immediately forming into a diamond on climb out. I was part of one in 1961 while in VF-91 embarked in Ranger. The ship was practicing an air show for some soon to visit VIP's. As skipper Clancey Rich's wingman I was to be right wing and ripple shot second. I can't remember who the other two guys were except Jim Taylor and Vern Sluyter were in the skipper's division and probably the ones. Jim's still around but I don't know any other VF-91 guys of that cruise who are. My memory is a little fuzzy here and not being an ex-Cat officer I don't know the installed safety interlocks which were intended to prevent mid-airs on cat shots but do remember a thorough briefing where the cat officers reluctantly agreed to override them and shoot as fast as possible. We were all at full power and in tension and the Skipper was to be shot first although I was flung off first with the others following. I pulled up steeply, throttled back slightly, raised the gear and assumed the lead. All joined in some fashion as we climbed through about 500' but the Captain (George Duncan or Bill Leonard) and CAG (Bennie Savilla) must have thought it looked hairy or not smooth enough to do it again. I'd like to hear if anyone else ever successfully pulled it off.

Snake Morris

1132
I agree with Hoss, there ain't nothing prettier than a Crusader section burner go. 1st nod, wheels, 2nd nod, the wing, when the head hits the backrest, bang bang-just like that.. I will never forget a night section burner go from Navy Dallas on Billy Phillip's wing, brand spankin' new 2NEs. All lights on, downhill over the lake. The guys in the tower said it was beautiful. Those were the days--- TR.

T.R. Swartz

1133
My most memorable section landing came as a complete surprise. I was tucked in under RB Cannon's wing, NORDO and in real thick clag, shooting an approach to Naha. The fog was so thick I would briefly lose sight of all but his wingtip. Then all of a sudden I felt a bump and RB's plane dropped down to the runway as we both touched down.

Bull Durham

1134
In response to Snake's comment about forming a diamond on near simultaneous cat shots. While in VF-33 in Enterprise with brand new -2NE's we formed a diamond after being shot. Believe Red Leavitt was still the CO, and I flew slot. Can't remember who flew #2 &#3 -- could have been Norm Gandia on one of the wing positions. Bow cats went first, then the waist cats. Worked out OK, but got a little scary on one of them when they stayed low and I didn't --- lost sight of them for a second or two. Wouldn't a fire ball off the bow been a great way to start an air show ???

Ray Donnelly

1135
1962, Saratoga, and VF-32. We tried the diamond launch in preparation for a VIP show ( can't remember who) about four times. We managed to screw it up the first couple of times, timing not quite right, forgot to disengage the cat inter-locks that sort of stuff but the third shot was pretty close so we went for it on the scheduled day. I was up forward and WO Clint Sledge was shooting the waist. Cat three was fired first, as soon as Clint touched the deck I fired the lead on cat two and both of us fired one and four as fast as we could. It worked perfectly and the photo of the four in perfect vertical, wing up burner burning diamond graced the wardroom wall until Sara was decommissioned. I believe the lead was Cdr. Christenson. I tried to get a copy of the photo for years but no luck.

Dick Bishop, Cat Officer 1960-62

1136
There is an interlock mechanism on the cats that prevent symultaneous firing of parallel cats. This can be overridden by the cat officer(s) if so desired. Probably the best order of firing woule be cat 1 first and becomes lead - going slightly right to left. Cat 2 fired and becomes the starboard wingman. Cat 3 fired, and becomes the port wingman. Cat 4 fired last to become the slot man. The cat officers really have to be in on the development of this think since it does require coordination between the bow an waist cats. Firing in this sequence results in the last three birds to be shot flying through a great deal of turbulence off the cats. Under normal circumstances, and there are two birds on the bow or waist cats, the cat officer will wiat until the first bird off clears the area ahead of th cats. You could possibly vary the firing sequence, but no matter how you do it, there is still a high potential to fly through severe turbulence off the cats. Saw this done on the 62-63 deployment on the Ranger, and it looked as little hairy. can see why the powers to be said no to any further effort. An accident waiting to happen.

Scott Ruby

1137
Night section take-off's were wild from the wing position, and because of that, the most fun. In tight you could see the glow of the lead's burner but nothing forward of his head but black, hurtling into that while staying focused on the lead's head was fun, felt like you we're crazy to be doing it.

Bill Quinn

1138
Reading that last one about RB Cannon's flight into Naha reminded me of a time in 1967 when I was an A-7 nugget living in the Villiagewood apartments in Jacksonville. I was sitting on the top step of the stairs leading to some cute navy nurse's apartment. I was holding her cat in my lap and stoking it's fur as she sat beside me. It was a beautiful quiet day, about dusk, and all was hunky-dory in my world. All of a sudden I looked up and saw the front half of an F-8 coming over the roof-line at about 50' (at the speed of heat) and just as he cleared the roof, he stood that Crusader on it's tail and lit the burner. All hell broke loose and it darn near blasted all the apartments surrounding the swimming pool to smithereens. It almost gave everyone there a heart attack including that cat who jumped straight up and I think landed about 25' below in the grass.

It turned out to be RB Cannon flying the Crusader. Although I never saw RB again (still remember he had a porcelain toilet that he served punch out of at parties), or the cat, or the nurse. It turns out that he and CAG Phillips were the only two F-8's flying that night. RB, if you are onboard this group, feel free to defend yourself.

Tom Brown

1139
I recall VF-62 did a 9 plane diamond into Cecil from Shang after returning from Cuban Missile Crisis cruise and CAP flights out of McCalla Airfield using Morest Gear for landings. Date was 24 May 1963. I am somewhat fuzzy on make up but think Skipper Joe Simons was lead, with Hal Terry, Paul Gillchrist Jack Altmeyer, Ron Knott, Jim Brady, Stew Seaman as members. I was slot, but no big deal as I don't recall trying to capture Blue overlaps. What I do recall is that these were all F-8Bs and we had one hydraulic system failure, two where cockpit temp control went to full cold, one where temp went to full hot and one or two NORDOs. This was last flight with these worn out birds and we got all new F-8Es, a great change for both aircrews and maintainers.

Ron Hinkel

1140
Air Wing 19 fly-off from Oriskany, 1970. The aim was for a big diamond fly-by at Miramar. We started launching, forming up overhead. Rocky Rockwell on deck in anguished tones: "I've got a problem! You guys wait for me!" We proceeded toward the beach, held off the coast for a while waiting for Rocky. We heard his voice, faint at first then growing more clear. Finally the number of hydraulic, radio, and other failures, plus some that probably weren't admitted to, said we couldn't wait any longer. We turned toward the field for the run-in, I was in the back and the tip of the diamond was empty. Nearing the field boundary I looked in my mirror and saw an F-8, boards out, getting real big real quick. Maybe half a mile from the field Rocky slipped into the slot, and we looked very good indeed.

Bull Durham

1141
Section Goes as we called them became common practice in the Atlanta Reserves. The wing transition for wingman became easy and comfortable after a few were done, even at night.

And speaking of night, Dave Maskell can tell us how it was to be doing a cross under at night and lead lights the AB just as Dave was crossing below and behind him!

Hall Martin

1142
Best section takeoff I ever saw was out of NAS Key West (Circa 1973-74).

Dave Waldrop was on my left wing, we briefed a left turn "fairly quickly after lift off" (objective; a dust off of the Air Force ADC F102 Key West Hot Pad Det.)

I was fortunate to have a "front row seat" and -- it was a pretty sight to see!

Throughout the takeoff and wing transition and the turn Dave was "painted" in position and never moved (up/down, fore/aft) throughout the maneuver.

Dave was really a "great stick" and that was undoubtedly the best wing position section takeoff I ever witnessed. Hats off to Dave.

Bill Rice

1143
While on the subject of F-8 formation flying, I had the opportunity of a lifetime with an airshow crowd of 100,000, the Blues watching, and a rock solid wingman named Steve Lambert. Wonder and I had been in Miami courting the airlines in late 1970 and we dropped into Ellington AFB somewhat unannounced because we didn't have a PPR (we hadn't checked the NOTAMs). They were having an airshow and were waiting for the Blues time slot. We refueled quickly and decided to leave town ASAP before anyone figured out we were there. The crowd of 100,000 was still waiting so I briefed a low transition with droops up and 1 degree nose down trim. Burners lit together, wings came down together, and Wonder stuck like glue. He began chasing the Blues shortly afterwards, and they told him they were very impressed with that section go. Looking back, it didn't get much better than that.

Frank Corah

1144
Re: Night section take-offs ... thought I'd offer one comment that seems to have been over looked; that is the quality of the Lead. Back in the 70's with VF-931 out of NAS Willow Grove, PA, I was fortunate to fly Harry Henning's wing and we made several night section go's. One that I remember very well, was a very, very black night section take -off out of Dobbins AFB ... the tower loved it. But, my point is that I never really felt that any of our section go's were 'hairy', and that is because Harry was so smooth, that he made it easy. I don't remember why we were in Dobbins; but, I think that we were on our way to MCAS Yuma for a 2 week weapons deployment ... and, we probably stopped to see one of Harry's many lady friends. Seemed we were always going somewhere to see one of his feminine friends ... wow, the ladies he had ... but, that is another story. Bottom line, Harry (and another Harry ... Harry Sarajian) were the smoothest leads that I have every had the good fortune to fly with/on.

Mark Daniels

1145
All this talk of air shows reminds me of maybe the strangest mix I had ever seen, let alone participated in. 1973, the Blues had a multiple plane accident in the desert and cancelled the year's show schedule. Comes time for the Miramar air show and VFP 63, VF 126 and Topgun/VF 121 got together trying to figure out how to fill the giant hole left in the show by the Blue's absence. What we came up with was a 4 plane diamond: Lead was Dave Frost in an F4, the two and three slots were F8's, and I flew slot in a TA4, with Nick Criss (God speed) in my back seat. We all did SH takeoffs and rendezvoused over Atlas waiting for the end of the show. We entered the break at about 400 kts and a little lower than normal break altitude for our Covey Break. Frosty in the lead broke first by pitching up and rolling over the F8 on his left wing, then the F8's pitched up together and broke. When the right wing F8 was directly over our canopy I pitched up and broke.

Don't know how it looked from the ground, but it was big fun!! I've seen F4's from close range, but that was the only time I ever looked directly up into those two big holes on the back end of Frosty's Phantom.

Keefer Welch

1146
In the fall of 1961, VF-142 joined CAG-11 and went to Norfolk to pick up newly commissioned Kittyhawk, shake her down at Gtmo, then bring her around the Horn, with port calls at Rio, Valparaiso, and Lima enroute to San Diego. At each port we onloaded VIP's and put on an airshow. I lucked out and got to shoot an AIM-9 in each event , one at a HVAR and two at flares. On the last show our CAG decided he was going to fly an F8 and lead our contingent. He had been a Spad skipper, but I assume he had some RAG training in the F8.

Our part of the airshow was to be 3 planes strafing the spar and I was to shoot an AIM-9 at a flare dropped 1.5 nm abeam the port side of the ship, launching the missile after crossing the wake on a 45 degree angle from the starboard quarter of the ship. Then we were to join up and make a diamond flyby from astern up the port side, with Mike Denham as left wing, Jimmie Taylor on the right, and me in the slot. CAG had briefed this to be a "precision " maneuver, coming by the ship in a right bank, so the VIP's could get somewhat of a plan view look at the formation. This was the way we usually did it, it wasn't to be a warp-9 flyby. The show went on, we joined up and orbited at medium altitude some miles aft and when our push time arrived we started downhill toward the ship. Everything was going smoothly as we got down to lower altitude I could see we were coming straight up the wake, and we were getting down on the water and the power was coming on, way on! The ship was just about level at my 1230 position, I could see it in my peripheral vision, we were locked in tight, I had my tail in the wash and was concentrating on the tailpipe ahead. I remember thinking, "I don't have any throttle left". Just before we reached the ship, CAG's nozzles opened and the burner lit in my face! We all hit burner instantly, and went by the ship in a 'backward arrow" formation with CAG about 1.5 plane lengths in front. He started a climbing turn and we eventually regrouped. When we got back on board, and questioned him about the change in the plan, as I recall he made light of it. Luckily we had all messed around in the prior couple of years with high "Q" flight so no "JC" maneuvers ensued, but in the old 143 blocks of the F8 this kind of unbriefed stuff at 50' could be bad. I don't know whether our Skipper got into the act or not. I have no idea what our IAS was, but it was up there. Of course we took a lot crap in the ready room and wardroom about our "precision" flyby. This wasn't the first time I'd seen a burner light close-up, but the others were expected/planned.

John Holm

1147
Since we are discussing airshows, the Paris airshow of 1964/65 was a great and fun event for those of us lucky enough to have participated.

Commander Phil Craven, CO of VF-62 in that time frame was to lead an F8E Diamond of Diamonds from VF-62 and VF-13 off the Shang. We were operating just south of Marseille, France and it was an all-out push to get 16 up aircraft out of the 24 squadron birds. We rendezvoused overhead Shang and formed up in the Diamond of Diamonds and never left that formation for the next 2.2 hours. We headed north with Phil leading us to Paris and Lebourge' (sp) Field. We thought we would make one pass over the field and head back to Shang since no in-flight refueling had been briefed. Of course, we had the "duty tanker" for the recovery but with 16 thirsty J57-P20A's involved, one A4 tanker would not have been much help.

Surprisingly, the tower asked us to return to the field for another pass and another and another. I guess the French were especially interested in the F8E's because they had just taken delivery of their first F8's for their fighter squadrons. Their pilots had trained with VF-174 at Cecil and many of their pilots became lifelong friends of the US Navy pilots that were stationed at Cecil or at VF-174 in those days.

After 4 passes over the field we headed back south to Shang, holding the Diamond of Diamond formation for the entire flight. I am attaching a picture of the formation on return to the Shang from Paris. (Taken by VFP-62). The formation was starting to get a little ragged at this time since the guys had been hanging on their leader's wings for 2.2 hours by now. I had the privilege of being on Phil Craven's right wing in the lead Diamond. I think Ron Knott and Bill Worley (deceased Blue Angel) were on the left wing and in the slot respectively in the lead formation.

It was a blast!

Jim Brady

1148
The last Navy F-8 section landing was made on March 25, 1987, almost 32 years to the day of the first flight, on the third leg of a trip from NAF Washington to the Boneyard. VADM John "Balls" Cotton and I did our best to send the F-8 out in style on a wild ride from Maryland to Arizona, pissing off Tinker and Luke AFBs on the way (but those are other stories...) (The last US Navy F-8 flight occurred several days later when VFP-206 skipper Dave Strong flew the last RF-8G from NAF Washington to Dulles to the Air and Space Museum.) Suffice it to say that we never landed with more than 500 pounds. On the last leg from Luke AFB (section go, low transition) to Davis-Monthan, we blew off the ramp at Thunderbird Aviation on a very low, very fast section fly-by of Bill Haupritch's outfit at Deer Valley Airport near Luke (they flew F-8s for a few more years on DOD support contracts with Dudley Moore and Hoss Pearson I believe). After flying by Bill on the ramp almost eyeball to eyeball as I recall (Balls was leading, and I was looking at padeyes as we flew by), Balls pulled up to the vertical, and we gave the folks on a DC-9 that had the temerity to get in our way an unplanned close encounter. We then headed up to Monument Valley for some low level fun until we ran out of gas. We just didn't want it to end. We stayed zip-lip and climbed up to 24,000 feet or so for the bingo to DM. Approaching the break we were on fumes but never considered making straight ins. Balls led a 500 knot fan break, and I re-joined on downwind. We figured it would be best to do a section landing so I wouldn't have to go around for any reason--we didn't have the gas. So I made my first and last section landing (stayed in tight until shutdown on a smooth lead) on my last flight in an F-8 (Buno 146882) on its last flight. When we shut down, we had to jump off the bottom steps since the forward landing gears were fully extended. I don't think the defueling was much effort for AMARC. Both F-8s were shut down for the last time without a single write-up.

Rob "Moon" Rivers

1149
Here's an excerpt from my article "Wing Fold Follies" in the Aug 2009 issue of that superb magazine, Flight Journal. Lots more in the article (F-8 the champ, by the way) and Mofak may add more sordid details of the double screw-ups.

Boom Powell
1 January 2013

The Marines of the VMF(AW)235 Death Angels flying from Danang also pulled a double. One dark and stormy night (sorry, couldn't resist), a pilot folded the wings to get past a Pan Am Boeing 707. Hurtling down the runway much faster than normal and worried about the old minefield the French had planted at the end of the runway, the pilot yanked the Crusader into the air and raised the landing gear. He later described it as looking, "like Christmas with the wing tips overhead flashing green and red and multiple orange stab aug lights winking with every movement of the stick and rudders." He turned downwind and declared an emergency. In all the excitement, the pilot forgot to put the gear handle back down and landed wheels up with a two-thousand pound bomb on each wing rack.

Less than a year later, an ex-squadron pilot who had been sent to FAC (Forward Air Control) duties came in from the field and sniveled a hot pad alert. He managed to get scrambled—probably by having his FAC unit back with the grunts call for emergency support. The flight leader taxied onto the duty runway, ran up to full thrust, and gave his erstwhile wingman a thumbs up. [Ed: he didn't notice the folded wings?!] Off went the lead and a few seconds later the wingman took off with his wings at attention. The pilot flew around the base to burn off fuel, jettisoned his ordnance and had his picture taken. After half an hour the plane landed safely with the wings still folded.

1150
In early 59 when VMF-323 was reforming with F-8s we made normal flights with military power for TOs not AB. I had recently joined the squadron and had been assigned to MCAS ElToro. At the Air Station most of my flight time was in the TV-2. Taking off with the TV-2 on RWY 7 which was uphill on a warm day it wasn't unusual to see the concrete at the other end of the runway. Additionally after TO you had to right turn to avoid the hills. A year or two before I witness the number 3 AFResrve F-84 hit the hill from the tower.

This day it was one of the first 4 plane flights for the Squadron. Forgot who was leading. I had section lead. We lined up on RWY 7 and section TOs had been briefed. When first section was about halfway down the RWY we went. I gave the wingman about 2-3 %. When over three quarters down the RWY I could see the concrete and we weren't ready to fly. I cobbed the throttle and wingman stayed in position. I rotated as we hit the concrete. we slowly climbed out. The rest was routine.

Why didn't I select AB? The early F-8s nozzles opened but burner did not light for a second or two later. You loss thrust first.

When we returned found out that the Group Cmdr Bull Clausen was in his office watching TO. His office was near TO of RWY 25. When we rotated on TO the dust from the end of runway obscured us and it looked like we went off the end. He tried to roll the crash crew and ran outside.

When we returned we were told Grp policy ... all TO's in AB.

Tom Rochford

1151
Well, actually, we did make the 12:00 flyover on time, with the echelon formation at 37,000 attempted while enroute. According to Shang reps at the show, the French were somewhat embarrassed by having not picked us up on the radar while we were inbound and the announcer had already reported us as "no shows." The French were still po'd by the AF fly-over of one of their nuc sites a week earlier. We weren't invited to make more passes and that really great SilverStep Leader Phil Craven (God Bless his Fighter Pilot Soul) wouldn't have made them anyway because it was a zero bingo fuel operation. I have no doubt Brady hung on to that diamond all the way home, but the formation was disbursed early during the return to prevent 16 (17 with the Photo Beanie) low-fuel state Crusaders arriving at the break simo. The fact that there were no bingo's to Marseilles was an achievement in itself. As I recall, one of our VF-13 guys did hit bingo fuel and announced he was diverting, but Fearsome One (Jim Foster) told him he'd be shot down if he attempted to do that!

So were the days ...

V/R Brown Bear
Dick Schaffert

1152
I had an interesting section take off back in 1967 out of Naha. I was wingman and just after liftoff my yaw damper went haywire and the nose started jerking left and right, very, very rapidly. I pulled up immediately and realized what the problem was and was able to reach the yaw damper switch and turn it off. After landing I talked to a couple of the tower guys and they told me that they were really excited because they thought they were going to get to see an ejection ... I think they were disappointed they didn't get to. There was paint from my helmet on both sides of the canopy. Have any of you ever had that happen?

John Fitzgerald

1153
Toward the end of my first cruise with VF-194 we had a bird that consistently failed the engine performance test on run-up. Out of tension, strike it below, let the ADJs work on it some more. They never figured out the problem, so when the ship arrived at Alameda they hooked the bird off. I was elected to ferry it back to NKX. The chief told me I shouldn't use AB, "just in case". I went to full power -- or as full as it got, released the brakes, and started trundling down the runway. With the 2-board coming up I decided I wasn't going to make it, so lit the burner. No problem, and I was airborne with feet to go.

Climbing through 10,000 feet I looked down and was startled to see something like 103% RPM and the EGT just easing into the red zone. Throttled back, watched it real close, and made it home for Happy Hour.

Based on my write-up the mechs identified the problem right away: stuck in manual fuel control!

Bull Durham

1154
In late May, 1964 I was flying a RF-8A from the Kitty Hawk off of southern Japan and was asked to give the Brit carrier Hermes, operating with us, a supersonic flyby (a VF-114 F-4 tried but failed). I agreed but thought it might be iffy since this model had no ventral fins and was limited to 700 kts at sea level, which might not be fast enough to be supersonic. Approaching the Hermes from the stern 10 miles out and at 3,000 ft. I was at 700 kts but .98 mach. All felt good so I continued and at 715 kts all went quiet as I went supersonic. Approaching the stern of the Hermes just above the flight deck I was at 745 kts. and 1.05 mach. I then started getting a rapidly increasing violent osculating yaw. My first thought was bad yaw damper and I started to turn it off but then realized I was losing directional stability. Coming out of burner and a quick pull up stabilized the plane and made me a firm believer in the posted limits for the aircraft.

The Brits loved it but ruefully mentioned that the pass cracked a window on the bridge.

Two days later we were enroute to "Yankee Station" and Laos where our VFP-63 Det C and VF-111 each left an aircraft in a smoking hole in Laos and my flight lead Chuck Klusman guest of the Pathet Lao, until he got tired of the accommodations and left 6 weeks later.

Jerry Kuechmann

1155
Shang VF-13/62 Paris Airshow 1963
...how well I remember that Diamond of Diamonds to La Bourget with VF-13 and 62 from the Shang. Phil was having such a great time driving us all over Paris to show off the might of the Shang and our F8's. I was on the Left Wing in the left Diamond when Phil took us around the Eiffel Tower in a tight left turn. I recall vividly seeing a VERY close up view of a BIG steel structure in my windshield as we Pyloned around the tower!! Those were the days. ...Was it only 50 years ago??

Cheers Bruce Boland

1156
Been thinking about flyovers, and after reading about some of the larger gaggles reported on these pages I recall some of my experiences. Most of them were CAG fly-offs when retuning to home base after a deployment, and my biggest gripe was with all the planning and briefing about join-up, formation and the fly-over itself, the flight leaders involved never briefed and executed an organized recovery plan at the field after the flyover. It was, "OK guys, break up and land." Maybe we were headed up the approach corridor away from the field or wherever, and in the next 10-15 minutes invariably there would be 4-plane flights trying to avoid each other, all within the control area. Sometimes got hairy indeed!..

I got a chance to plan, lead and execute a 32-plane flyover while I was in VF-121 circa "67-"68, the occasion being Capt. Bob Galatin's COC of CAG-12 at Miramar. Maybe some of the guys on the net were in VF-124 at that time and were in the flight. It consisted of a diamond of diamonds which included every type of RAG aircraft, including A-3's. The ceremony was in the morning at the parade ground, north of the big theater, about a mile from the runway, and the flyover was to be immediately following the Benediction.

After I got a TOT from the staff officer running the ceremony, I worked out the whole evolution, from take-off to landing, got all aircrews together and briefed it. Each a/c had an ID which consisted of the number of the diamond and position in the diamond, i.e., 4-3. We had a weather prob in that there was about 2 miles visibility below 5k. We got a special VFR clearance with APC monitoring the whole evolution. I briefed Ops on the lineup and our entire plan so hopefully there would be no surprises, and they knew where everybody would be. There was a staff member on the ground with a radio, so if there was a change in time we could adjust.

Our rendezvous was over Lake Henshaw at 15K in a port orbit at 300 KIAS. Don't recall the tacan position. Everybody showed up and we sorted ourselves out. We had plenty of time, so I was able to time our turns in orbit so as to arrive at the push point headed south, with a gradual turn to intercept the run-in heading about 8 nm out still in a descent down to 500' AGL. I had an extra F4 flown by Jim Ruliffson, who was my spotter and helped tweak positions of the diamonds. Also, as we started down I had to get established on a run-in which was offset from the runway by about 1.25 miles but at about 5K I couldn't see the field , so I had Jim stay at about 10K and just ahead of us where he could see the field and lead us over the parade ground. This was all pre-briefed. I had set the power to hold 300 KIAS so when we started downhill I just let the airspeed build up and by the time we had leveled off there was no need to make an adjustment. We hit the parade ground on schedule, and I started a gradual right climbing turn, and about 3nm north we started breaking off the diamonds in a briefed sequence from the rear, switching to APC and getting steered to the initial for Rwy 24. I'm sure there was grumbling in the ranks at times during the process, but I don't recall any negative comments. CAG thought it was great. I remember seeing him around San Diego in his later years and he always made a point of mentioning the flyover.

John Holm

1157
An attempt to settle whether the Crusader would have been a great Blue Angel machine. You decide.

I suggest that the parade formation we flew around the field or boat looked great, even in echelon, but that relative bearing and distance apart made a very poor diamond because the F-8 is longer than it is wide.

I attach five examples: section parade, division parade, diamond parade and Blue Angel diamond along with a photo of Blues.

Some folks did occasionally fly the F-8 in the tight diamond the Blues fly and some of them came back with their UHT crunched, others did OK for a level fly by or photo op.

There is no question that we flew very close at times to that wing tip light, especially being led back home at night. We glommed on to our leader just a few feet away but that bearing and distance that was our standard would look wrong in a diamond. The normal parade diamond is distorted lengthwise.

To fly the tight diamond, the F-8 wingmen must fly much farther forward placing the pilot's eye well ahead of the wing tip – a very uncomfortable feeling because the fuselage is farther away than the wing tip (harder to fly on) and that close wing tip is slipping too far aft for comfort.

No one came near to hitting a UHT in any of the parade formations we flew. Comments indicate that. It was trying to get too tight that made parts of the a/c one could not see come into close proximity.

Also, just for laughs, check out #4 in the Blue Angel diamond. The pilot's eye is ahead of two wing tips that are very close and F-8 step-down would put leader's burner right in his gunsight.

Al Lansdowne

1158
The worst case of vertigo I ever had was flying the slot of a 4 plane F-8 diamond flyby at Kaneohe. It was the retirement ceremony for FMFPAC (can't remember who.) After we passed the parade ground at about 300', heading towards the mountains, we went into one of the usual clouds that hang over that area. I swore we were going straight up, keyed the mike and told the leader that and that I had terrible vertigo. He assured me we were in a slight climbing turn back out to sea but I have never experienced panic like that before or since. I managed to hang in, but looking up at his tailpipe in the cloud with the slight G's of the turn really scrambled my brain. I can still relive it.

We had a 3 plane Navy F8-1P detachment attached to us for awhile. They were thrown off a boat because of their landing skills. They were taken from F-9's. put in F-8's, and deployed. The first day they showed up they all got wave-offs by the runway duty officer for regular landings.They stayed with us for weeks doing FMLP's.. They took a lot of photos of us in various formations. Invariably, the slot man was sucked in the diamonds (not when I was slot:)).

Rick Carlton

1159
Having photographed numerous flights of F8's over the years, what looks good in flight, does not necessarily look good in a pic. Going from a 3D view in the air, looks quite different in a 2D photograph. to begin with, the formation needs to be more compact. This involves moving everyone forward. While someone may feel comfortable flying a normal parade position, it may feel like they guys are looking over their shoulder at the lead. Because the aviators involved tend to be a little uncomfortable, they tend to oscillate in the formation. Particularly hard to get is a good photograph of a flight of four in a line-a-breast in a stacked up position. An extreme amount of oscillation among the four. By taking enough photos, you can usually get one good one as they oscillate through the best view. Really hard on the number four guy. It isn't necessary fly with wingtips over-lapped, just all the separation between all the aircraft at equal distances. Getting a good picture of a diamond is more difficult. Usually means lying to the positions, and photographing in a slight turn. A good visual always depends on the capability of the aviators involved, and how comfortable doing it.

Scott Ruby

1160
It's 1957 and here we are at Fallon with our brand new F8U-1s. All kinds of fun stuff is happening like hung rockets from our weapons of mass destruction rocket packs and main gear skipping across the boonies.

Wait a minute! Our Glorious Leader has a bright idea!

Lets show off our skills in our hot new A/C by forming up into a 14 plane tail chase and doing some fun stuff.

Only problem is, after about the fourth turn we are stretched out almost to Reno and
OOOPS! tail end Charlie is in low earth orbit.

Q. OK, so what is the stupidest exercise you ever were involved in??

John Miottel

1161
We are overlooking one major factor in our F-8 as a Blues airplane. Only F-8 pilots would be able to fly. No A-4 or F-4 pilot would get up to speed fast enough, at least not many. Attack pukes would not like it but the overall quality of pilots would be enhanced, IMHO.

Bob Heisner

1162
From my limited experience, Scott Ruby's dissertation on a VSH formation vs. a VSH picture is spot on. I remember one of the VFP-63 det guys (Len Johnson I believe) getting four of us set up for a diamond shot overhead Shangri-La. After 5-10 minutes of 'stage direction,' i.e. moving #s 2, 3, & 4 in/out, fore/aft, stepped-up/stepped-down, we were right where he wanted us but I recall the wing & slot positions being really odd compared to normal, and not all that comfortable to maintain for any length of time.

But I still have the photo on my hangar wall..and his direction was exactly correct; the formation 'looks' great!

Joe Chronic

1163
Re "Crash's" memory of our squadron (VF-154) tail chase when we followed FX down into Fallon in 1957 for our first gunnery deployment. Our fearless leader was determined to get us all on the deck despite IFR conditions during most of the descent. Ah yes, I remember it well. We called it the "Dance of the snow snakes". It's a miracle all of us made it. Still find it had to believe after all these years.

Dave Winiker

1164
the Crusader was not an easy aircraft for accurate gun work. I wonder if there are any records of who was the best at hitting the towed banner with the Crusader. I used to lock down the Radar control stick and use two hands to track in close. I would squeeze the trigger to the first notch to open the gun gas bay doors and get the little trim change that it would cause and then track with two hands at military power until I was "what I thought was optimum range. But whether it was the aircrafts lead computing site or some other issue, I found it difficult to get the kind of hits I had achieved in the other aircraft I had flown. I would love to see some of the guys comments on that subject.

Jim Brady

1165
Bug got great hits ... and they were at least as long as Hoser's. Followed Bug in the line up for the pattern after we both joined VF191 from CAG 5 for our second cruise. Bug subscribed to "closer is better". He got so close to the banner that he had to kick full right rudder to pop over the banner. Great maneuver except he didn't let go of the trigger. Got 2 tractors on successive gun hops. The tractor driver changed his callsign to Target.

Bug, Moon and Falcon were still the best sticks I ever flew with!!

Keefer Welch

1166
Scuttlebutt had it that the best shooter was the guy who remembered to bet the ordnance crew a case or two of beer that he wouldn't be the best shooter.

HP Lillebo

1167
I was in VC 5 in Jan 1968 when the North Koreans captured the Pueblo. A carrier was sent up from the Tonkin Gulf to Japan to be in the neighborhood in case something happened, sorry I don't remember which one. We were sent down to Iwakuni to tow banners for the F4s to practice gunnery with the new mini guns that they strapped to the belly. We towed for them for a couple of weeks and during that whole time I don't remember them ever hitting the banner.

John Fitzgerald

1168
I have a 12"x 18" photo on the wall of my office which shows VF-142 pilots with a banner with 156 hits out of 906 rounds fired, which computes to 17.5%. Venue is MCAS Yuma, spring 1961, aircraft F8U-2.

John Holm

1169
My most poignant memories of F8 gunnery was when in 71 at Yuma, a Navy Squadron shot up two A4 tows, one a total loss (burned to the ground) and the other almost. It was generally held that it was the same offender for both kills, holding the trigger down crossing the banner. But what the heck, a kills a kill especially when you get two of them. We nicknamed the A4 driver Target Duncan.

Jerry Dempsey

1170
We lost 1 tow - It had a round straight up the tailpipe and a round in the left wing root from a right perch. Funny, I can't remember how we knew that - all of our gunnery was out to sea. Maybe he limped home or shot a flameout. I know the tailipipe round didn't touch either side.The same shooter had punched out of an FJ-4 in a spin during a hassle. 1st AGLICO had a billet to fill and the Skipper promptly filled it with him.

We also got a round into the battery behind the seat of an FJ-4 tow. The tow pilot met the shooter on the ground and punched him out. When I left the squadron for a group job I towed a lot for the squadron in both the FJ and F8 and I always had my feet up and shoulders rolled in, hunched in a fetal position while they made passes.

We also had a guy make just one more supersonic pass as the tow got closer to Oahu. He broke windows and concrete blocks in the foundation of the Kaneohe O'Club as he pulled off.

Keep in mind these are sea stories and it's been 53 years, damn-it! But I remember them like it was yesterday.

One more thing - we had a reunion at Miramar with the present squadron flying F-18's. We still thought we were pretty hot - the F-18 wasn't any greater than the F-8 in out mind - just some avionics, etc. I think we could even out-run it. We could probably teach these kids something. An old squadron mate said, just think - what would we have thought if a bunch of Jenny pilots came into our ready room and started telling sea tales. It has been 40 years from them to us (1918-1958), and 40 years from us to these kids (1960-2000). Then I realized why the kids just smiled and laughed at our stories.

But I got even - I told a group of them to take a good lock - they are going to be just like us one day. You should have seen their jaws drop.

Semper Fidelis
Rick Carlton

1171
On one of our flights, VC-5 brought over a DART for us to shoot. Moose Musitano was ahead of me in the pattern and on the first run Moose shot one of the DART's fins off. The thing started doing barrel rolls. The terrific yaw imposed on the tractor was giving the driver concern for his and the tractor's safety so he jettisoned the DART without my ever getting a shot. Since it was early in the hop, someone begged for another DART (May have been me...I do not remember). The tractor driver called Miramar and had one on the way within 20 minutes or so. I went to "max endurance" and waited for the DART's arrival. When the tractor arrived on the Chocolate Mountain Range, I passed him about 5000' above and headed 180 degrees from his heading. I yelled "Tally Ho", yanked the stick back and to the right and came off the "perch" backward and to the left. It was my first and last departure in the F-8E. After recovering, the tractor driver acknowledged the maneuver by mentioning, "Had some trouble there, didn't you?" Ah, the good old days....

Ron Lambe

1172
Ah legends! Yes, 2 A4 tractors were hit. Minor damage in the rear fuselage on the first, and the second was hit in the LOX converter, but no major damage. I know because I flew wing on both aircraft as escort back to El Centro. The only thing lost in both incidents were the banners.....and the tractor driver's original call sign, as he assumed the nom de guerre of "Target".

Keefer Welch

1173
As we know the F8 was never famous for many hits on the banner. I do remember our ordinance crew "marking" a banner for the skipper. After recovery of the banner they took bullets with the skippers paint color on them and ran them through the banner.

I claim two banners, one from a C model and the other from a D. My technique was to bore in close at high G (High angle off) and aim for the top front corner of the banner. It was fun to watch the banner light up using API ammo. We didn't use that often, but sometimes we had to use what was available.

I was not in the squadron at the time, but Bill Adams came back with the banner front bar stuck into his vertical stab. I don't know of any one else colliding with the banner.

Hall Martin

1174
remember how intensely competitive the gun dets where. If you shot a banner off or bent a rigging pole you were in for serious trouble @ Happy Hour after the Kangaroo Court fines. A shot off banner was usually followed to the ground to get a posit. for a recovery attempt especially if we thought there were hits to be counted. Do not remember if there were any scoring rules for a recovered banner? I also remember an incident with my fleet squadron @ Yuma when we ground launched a bullet across the highway into a trailer park. No one hurt except a lot of professional pride ... The CO put the entire squadron in quarters hack for a day or two! Lt/Adm Unruh was an instructor on my RAG Gun Det., yelp ... he had it all!

Bill Bertsch Jr

1175
One of the best F8 gunners was a guy named Frank Harrington in VF-194. He flew a weird sucked pattern nobody could follow but nobody cared Frank got hits. One day after Franks first run, the following pilot called knock it off a big hit banner. On the ground the banner was laid out and five guys counted the hits all the same 53. The gun system was cleaned out and spent cases and unfired belts laid out. Cameras clicked, this was history. He fired exactly 100 rds. in one run.

Later back at the Miramar ranch, I had to go to the RAG for something and saw my instructor, Tooter Teague, at his desk piled high with books, charts and junk along with his K&E decitrig slide rule (remember those things?). I said 'hey Tooter what's all this?' He replied 'Dudley I am going to prove given the limitations of the F8 gun system that hit ratio is impossible.' I replied, 'Tooter we have the banner.' He picked up the K&E and started moving wood around.

With that kind of talent, now you know why the F8 program was so great.

Dudley Moore

1176
Re the VU-7 tractor shoot downs. One was a FJ-4 (believe Bill Oats was the pilot) that did make it back to El Centro and would have made the runway no problem. However one of the hits made his tail hook come down and he caught the perimeter fence thus landing short. El Centro sent the bill to VU-7 and our Skipper Tex Kelly (WWII ace with German kills as a Brit pilot and Japanese kills as a USN pilot) forwarded the bill to the shooting squadron. I don't remember the story on the F-8, maybe Unruh will remember, but I think it made it back too.

One of the shooters of those days had the distinction of hitting two tractors. A couple of years ago I could have told you his name but CRS is here.

We did not like long hits.

Jerry Kuechmann

1177
Jack Snyder's passion for gunnery. I was in VF-191 with Skipper Jack when we got new F-8Es and took them to Yuma. He had us repeatedly in the gun buts firing them in till they got to be good hitters. He didn't like the way our gun cameras were mounted and had me fly to Cecil to pick up the kind he wanted. We towed a plane to the runway and I mounted up, started, and rolled, going non-stop from Yuma to Cecil landing with about 500 pounds, and then returning with the camera mounts the next day. I was able to get an E in both high and low altitude gunnery n those planes.

Jack also lost an outer wing panel approaching the banner super sonic and punched out. He was black and blue and beat up but otherwise OK. I was a member of the accident board and we spent some time on the ground at Chocolate Mountain range looking for parts. We also tried to shoot jack rabbits with our pistols but never got any.

Dick Martin

1178
One of my most memorable F-8 gun stories is about Scotty Bates, aka Master or Slug. When we went to Yuma for guns while in the rag in '67, Scotty hit the banner and brought it back to Yuma draped on his right outer wing panel. Landed the a/c, no problem and not a lot of damage. Maybe he listened to Tom Corboy more than the rest of us. At the Kangaroo Court, we all thought Mutha, Capt Bob Chew, would hammer him. However, he praised Scotty and I think gave him $$ instead of a fine, not sure of the details. I do remember Mutha saying he would rather a pilot hit the banner rather than shooting out of range.

All the best, Hoss Pearson

1179
I have some good and bad memories of F8 gunnery. In 1961, the VF-11 Red Rippers focused on gunnery excellence and held F8 squadron records with all pilots being gunnery banner qualified at both 20,000 and 30,000 feet. Also, each pilot had Dart aerial gunnery target experience.

I have had a picture on the wall ever since with a multi holed banner laid out on the ramp with "100%" spelled out in 20mm bullets standing on the banner and a chewed up Dart in front, all surrounded by CO Jay Arnold, XO John Dixon and a dozen other pilots all wearing flight and G suits.

A sad note regarding the picture is that my roommate, Neil Yeomans, was lost a few weeks later during a high speed 30,000 foot gunnery run. His aircraft disintegrated when a Mk12 cannon forward mount came loose and the gun sprayed bullets into the fuselage. That accident put a fleet-wide hold on F8 gunnery until inspection and improved maintenance procedures corrected the problem. I don't think a failure of this type happened again on U.S. F8 aircraft.

Paul Polski

1180
We were on a VF-124 gunnery deployment late 1961 or early 1962. It was my first air to air gunnery action in the F8 and I was doing pretty well averaging over 15% for the total deployment. One day I had what I thought were the best passes of our deployment ... flew close to the banner on the way back and that sucker was peppered with holes. Good ol' Rick then did a barrel roll with the banner hanging behind and lost that sucker ... I will never forgive you-:)

Bob Spackman

1181
I had quite a bit of success in both the F11 (won the Britannia Trophy in 1961) and F8 (particularly VF-124 gunsights) by flying very close to the banner. That meant a high G run but it had to be SMOOTH. When reviewing the film some pilots could not believe how close I was when firing. I did have nearly as much success with VMF 334 sights(same type).

Bob Spackman

1182
As CAG LSO I naturally got the honor of towing the banner often. Thanks guys.

On the plus side, it seemed to me that the procedure for minimizing banner damage from concrete drag made the launch portion of the mission a unique and highly enjoyable experience:

Minimum roll lift-off, wing-up, and nose way high to stay under 220 knots generated attitude with no visible horizon that bid fair to duplicate an astronaut's rocket launch.

I never got shot down; so, cannot regale you with more exciting stories.

Years earlier, flying F9F-6 Cougars, I did shoot off a couple of banners. That little cable is a mighty small target!

Mo Hayes

1183
Reading the gun stories I'll add my own from VMF-122 days. During our weapons deployment to Rosie Rhodes in '63 we participated in what my fallible memory tells me was some kind of an all fleet gunnery exercise/meet. We loaded 140 rounds and got two passes at the banner. I'm looking at a picture on my wall of our Skipper, Dale Ward, XO, Del Serrin and myself standing in front of our banner. Skipper had 31 hits, XO had 30 and I had a miracle 81. It was just one of those lucky days ... and no I was not the banner guard :)

Re the F8 as a tight formation a/c I remember this clearly from my VMF-232 days in the '57-'59 time frame. We inherited Chuck Hiett from the Blues and the Skipper, Jay Hubbard ,gave him the nod to form a demonstration team to perform most of the Blues show. At the time we were flying the FJ-4 and it was a terrific a/c to fly in tight formation. We did our thing several times around the Hawaiian Islands before receiving our Crusaders in '59 when our XO "Snake" Hastings took over as flight lead and I flew the slot...don't recall who flew the wings. The first time we practiced a diamond loop down low was over the field at Kaneohe Bay and as we neared the bottom of the loop Snake thought we might be pulling out too low with basically no G loading so he pulled just a little harder. This caused his tailpipe to deflect down too much and his jet wash hit my UHT, causing a hard pitch down and I almost hit the ground as I recovered from the maneuver. We gave ourselves considerably more altitude for recovery from the loop after that.

To paraphrase Rick Carlton "keep in mind these stories are 50+ years old" but I remember them as though it were yesterday ... I think.

Bob Johnson

1184
The banner couldn't fight back but I discovered that the mighty Regulus could, sort of. The Navy had a shoot going on (ship to air) off Oahu and VMF(AW)-232 sent a section of F8s up to make sure the Regulus didn't decide to head for Honolulu and also to give us a crack at it if the ship fired missiles didn't bring it down. Such was the case and I set up from a right perch. I was getting some hits and was pretty excited about the whole process when the Reg broke into me. The windscreen went all red and I have no idea how we missed colliding. Shortly thereafter we deployed to DaNang where there was no airborne threat...so much for being in a fighter squadron.

I remember correctly the 30K gunnery pattern resulted in the aircraft going supersonic during the firing run. With the tremendous authority the UHT provided coupled with the pitch up that happened when the aircraft passed from supersonic to subsonic it was possible to experience a serious overstress if one wasn't careful. I don't think we did very well at 30K.

Bruce Martin

1185
All this talk about guns made me dig into my dusty records. From 13 – 24 April, 1969, Bruce Boland lead a VF-124 weapons det to Yuma. The cast of characters included CDR Jim Bryan, LCDR John McDonald, Lts Bill Casey, Errol Reilly, Hal Loney, Tony Nargi, Joe Thompson, Ed Ross and Bill Trione and LTJGs Doug Oldfield and myself.

We called ourselves "Boland's Bushwhackers" and on the back of our flight suits we stitched a stenciled black on white cloth logo 8 or more inches round of the F-8 gun sight reticle with the pipper centered on the appropriate part of a seductive woman's anatomy.

We were a raucous bunch and managed to get ourselves thrown out of the Marine O'Club. As great a badge of honor as a combat E, in my view. Our flight suits were too "too" for the Marines.

I don't remember much about the all nighter we pulled in Mexico. Just that there were a lot of long necks on the table. But I do remember being grateful to be the ODO next day because I was in no shape to fly and my head hurt. But the flight schedule must be met and launch they did. The only pilot I can remember being on that launch (if any of the guys are reading this maybe they can add to my recollection) was Errol Reilly, "Salad Man", who was intoxicated when he manned up. (Errol, if you are watching me from your perch in heaven, forgive me.) Again, my recollection fails on who all had hits and how many, but I do know that Errol had the most and a significant number more than whoever was in second place. I was impressed.

Later in about '72's Errol came to VT-4 where I was Stan Officer and it came to me to Fam him as an instructor. On a formation hop he was demonstrating parade formation from the back seat (T-2C) while I was the "student" in the front. His position was rock solid. However, the stick was all over the cockpit and it was everything I could do to keep from getting my knees battered black and blue. His ability to see relative motion, over control the heck out of the airplane and yet maintain a precise position was just amazing to me. My reaction was "Errol, you cannot teach students your technique. You will have to say 'do as I say, not as I do'".

Thinking back to that day when he put so many holes in the banner, I tried to envision Errol tracking the banner with the stick all over the cockpit. Was it the all nighter or the alcohol that allowed him to get so many hits? I don't think so. I think Errol was just that good.

Rick Hadden

1186
I was COMPEX OBSERVER for VF-11 at Rota from 24 July- 3 August 1961. I watched Neal Yeomans pull off the banner when the entire wing separated from the fuselage of the F8U-1. The wing descended in a very slow circling fashion reminiscent of an oak seed pod while the fuselage plunged straight in from 20,000 feet.

Consensus was that upon wing separation the "G" forces rendered Neal unconscious . I do not recall that the fuselage was recovered from the sea.

My memory was that stress corrosion of the rear wing attach points were the root cause. I would not bet on my memory at this late date! So I also cannot comment on Paul Polski's claims about the "LEAD ZIPPERS" prowess at 20 and 30 thousand feet gunnery. They must have done well because "Skipper" Arnold presented me with an Honorary LEAD ZIPPER award.

On 1 May , 1968 I was flying my second Dart gunnery flight and on my second or third pass the DART totally disintegrated ... The company reps did not believe us and went out on the range to try and find the remains.

These DARTS had been stored out in the desert in int intense heat. No wonder with just a hit or two they would come apart in a dramatic way!!

Or maybe my one working gun was really boresighted very accurately ...

P J Smith

1187
The recent comment re: Gators vs Hornets -- Several yrs ago, while the French were still flying Crusaders, I got an email from a Hornet driver (sorry, can't lay my hands on it now), who had apparently been in some jointex wi/the French. The only part I can recall with any clarity was this comment: "The acceleration of a clean F-8 is eye-watering". I could only surmise that he had joined on one, and then the Cruzeman had lit his burner & moved off more smartly than the Hornet could. So maybe the old guys weren't so far off in bragging to those young whippersnappers.

Dave Johnson

1188
ometime in the early 70's, VMF 112 from Dallas and VMF 351 from Atlanta were deployed simultaneously to Yuma for summer ATD. VMF 112 was at the Checkerboard hangar, 351 was southwest of us, and a Navy F8 squadron was sandwiched in between.

Mid-morning one day, a 112 airplane fired off a hung 2.75 FFAR over the Navy squadron's parked airplanes. While that investigation was going on, VMF 351 south of us had a failure of some sort and fired off a 20mm round, again, over the top of the Navy squadron's parked airplanes. Obviously, both airplane nose struts were over inflated.

Nothing was damaged in the two incidents, and the mood was lightened somewhat when, about 30 minutes after the 20mm round went over their heads, a crusty old Navy chief came parading down the flight line waving a white flag.

I never heard what caused the 20mm to fire. In the case of the 2.75 FFAR, George Cummings, in a foolhardy attempt at trouble shooting, reversed the intervalometer and shoved it back into place. George still can't hear.

Willy Carroll

1189
As a result of my time in VU-7 towing banners during Yuma dets I remember learning you were supposed to pick black as the bullet color because the yellow color often showed up on the banner as a black smear, thus potentially doubling your score.

Jack Allen

1190
VF-32 at Cecil; about 1960; I was to lead a flight of four for 20K rag gunnery. We were lined up in echelon in the warm up area prior to take-off while the banner tow flown by Charlie Lusk was about to lift off. To prevent burning the cable with the A/B we had 100 feet of log chain attached before the quarter inch diameter cable which extended 1800 feet to the banner. Unfortunately, the banner fell off, so he started a left 360 to drop the remaining cable alongside the runway in the designated drop area. Looking to my left I saw what I thought was a rabbit jumping through the field, but then I realized that Charlie was too low and that the end of the cable was dragging the ground. I called for him to pull up but was blocked by another caller. Dwight Timm, as the #2 guy in echelon, was the victim. The cable hit his left wing and sawed a slit all the way through to the main spar. Pretty costly!

Bob Shumaker.

1191
n 1964 I was going through VF-174 with Tom Harkin, now Senator from Iowa. Tom was good in the gunnery pattern and had many hits. I wasn't and didn't. I was in the ill conceived PEP experimental program in flight school which eliminated gunnery in the T-2. The first time I ever saw the banner was when it was being towed by Brown Bear as my instructor in VT-23 in the F-11. We were told we should have seven hits when we finished gunnery phase in 174. Going into the last hop, I had zero. On our way to the flight line, Tom told me he had the gunnery chief paint his bullets my color to increase my odds of getting seven hits. On his last run, Tom shot the banner down over the Atlantic. I got credit for the seven hits.

Larry Durbin

1192
When I was teaching airplane dynamics and control at Virginia Tech I would put the chalk away on Friday's with ten or fifteen minutes to go and tell an "illustrative" sea story. After an hour of trying to make sense of rolling and yawing and sideslipping and such, notes were secured and I told them about my gun pattern experience.

As you know we began the squirrel-cage pattern by making spacer passes by the tractor at fixed intervals. I thought I'd amuse myself and the tractor pilot by flying by inverted (I did a lot of that until Rocky told me that stewardesses don't like pilots who fly upside-down).

Passing the tractor I rolled inverted and pushed. Well, it turns out the mechs had been working on the brake lines, and as the g went negative I saw what the H in AMH stood for. A stream of red hydraulic fluid flowed out of the bilges and pooled on the canopy above (below) my head. I was used to seeing washers and cigarette butts float by, but this was something new.

This looked bad. If I just put positive g on the airplane I'd be covered in oil. I quickly thought that I should roll left and sideslip right, or maybe roll and sideslip both to the right, or some combination, as I put the g back on. The oil pressure light had been on for some time, so I picked a combination of stick and pedal and ...

I was covered with hydraulic fluid. I tried to reverse the action: I bunted the stick but then the oil sort of atomized, flew up and forward, covering the inside of windscreen. After all the flailing ended, I was motoring along in fairly good shape but I couldn't see out. I wiped the windscreen with my gloved hand, but that only smeared the oil.

Flight lead had told me to go back to Yuma, which had I turned toward on instruments. I didn't think I could shoot a zero-zero (internal) landing though. Inspired by necessity, I loosened my torso harness, unzipped my flight suit, started pulling and stretching as much of my skivvie shirt as I could get and sawed it off with my survival knife. Now I had a rag, so I cleaned up a hole in the windscreen and made a half decent landing.

Bull Durham

1193
There I was at the hold short line of the South runway (17?) at MCAS Yuma, March, 1967. I was the banner escort for an air-to-air guns hop with the Fighting Falcons of VMF-334.

As I looked at the banner being hooked up to our tractor, I thought back to the last time I was escort – 8 months before. It was the Summer of 1966, an F11 at NAS Beeville, in the last days before earning my wings. Back then, the Tractor rolled, good banner, Escort (me) cleared for take-off. After slipping the surly bonds, getting clean, I was embarrassed to have to make the call "Escort is no joy on the banner". Tractor pilot answered with "So what else is new?"

The Falcon Tractor's burner brought me back to the present! Today I will not lose sight of the banner! No sirree – not today!

Good banner, Escort cleared for takeoff. Burner now! Banner in sight. Wheels clear of the runway – gear up! Banner in sight. Rolling in Nose Down trim - Wing down. Banner in sight. Moving faster, just above the orange trees. Banner in sight. 400 knots, pull up, roll right, turn north. Banner in sight. Tractor climbing at 185 kts, Escort still smoking at close to 400 kts. Banner getting easier to see each second.

Realizing that I will soon be watching the banner in my mirrors, I yanked the throttle out of burner, went to idle, dropped speed brakes, tried to think of other forms of parasitic drag available. Banner now very easy to see!

As I reached the banner, I had only one move left – pull up, and lose the kinetic energy! Now going straight up. I rolled over, still have the banner in sight, but now looking at it through the top of my canopy, over my shoulder. I did a half roll and started to pull the nose back toward earth, and saw that all my efforts to slow down had exceeded expectations – I was now inverted at about 190 kts, and directly above the banner. I raised my wing, and added power, boards in, as I floated down to the banner. Another half roll brought me sunny side up, wing raised, 185kts, in an acceptable escort position, and still overhead MCAS Yuma (acrobatics in controlled airspace?). On the radio this time: "Zombie, looking gooood".

I took a quick inventory – It's a beautiful day, I'm a Marine, I'm a Crusader pilot, -- and I never lost sight of the dang banner (and today I was one lucky nugget). I'm truly living the good life!

Charlie Snell

1194
I have to do another Yuma 124 sea story. Around 1972? I went with Al Lansdowne from NKX to Yuma as an advanced something for an upcoming gun det. Landing at Yuma and taxiing in we were told to hold short of a runway crossing. No apparent reason why. Al asked the tower "why the hold?" and we were told "traffic on final for that runway". Still no traffic in sight. Then way out on a five mile straight in final appeared an R-4D making at least 90kts. Al again told tower we had the traffic way out there and asked to cross. Tower "hold short". R-4D finally landed and turned off way short of our holding short spot. Tower then cleared us to cross. Al, "Thanks a bunch!" maybe a hair sarcastic. New voice arose sounding senile and commanding asking "who made that last transmission?". Al acknowledged that he, Hoppy whatever, had. Senile voice, "This is the base CO and you will report to my office ASAP.". Al and I were given the gate back to NKX and set the record for the quickest any gun det had been tossed of the base. Somehow Mutha Merle Gourder smoothed it and the det was allowed to proceed the next day.

Bob Heisner

1195
I read with interest, the story about Jim Cannon and his prediction that he would kill himself in the Crusader by doing something dumb. I will bet that there are many of us who did something dumb in the Crusader and somehow, lived to tell the tale. Reminds me of the old movie, "Fate is the hunter" which describes a commercial airline crash due to a chain of events that caused the aircraft to crash. Perhaps some of the guys would share an experience they had where "fate" didn't win and they can relate the story.

Jim Brady

1196
It is difficult for me to grasp the idea of losing the variable incidence wing off an F8U. Those trunnions are huge and presumably overdesigned like a bridge because of their importance. The wing incidence actuator is suspect in my mind.

During the Nam fracas word got back to Vought that the pilots were popping the wing up in close dogfights the get the added lift from the droop to tighten their turn. Chief Engineer Sol Love said he would be more comfortable if they made the bolt bigger at the wing end of the hydraulic actuator. It was already overdesigned because the wing loads were so carefully balanced on a line thru the MAC quarter chord and the pivot trunnion centers. I can see where a failure of the incidence bolt/actuator could allow the wing to hinge upward and tear it off the trunnions. Has anyone seen the accident report conclusions?

Garland O. Goodwin

1197 .
Garland Goodwin is no doubt correct in assigning wing loss to the wing incident actuator system. I had a senior moment when I mentioned the wing attach points as suspect. These were more than adequate for the structural loading and I do not recall any stress failures in that area.

However, the wing incidence attach point had a history of failure due to stress corrosion. I also witnessed "Beaver" Heiss' demise at Cecil Field. I was standing at the NE corner of VF-124 Hanger and saw the wing separate from the fuselage. From my vantage point it appeared that the wing released from the front and then peeled back wholly intact.

This was the same as I witnessed on the Neal Yeomans F8U-1 at Rota. The wing may have been recovered there and I do not recall the cause of wing failure on the Cecil Field accident where the wreckage was recoverable.

P J Smith

1198
Jim Cannon's Accident

I was in VF-124 with Jim and in the Ready Room the day of his accident. He had flown to NKX very early in the morning to pick up the pay checks for the Det in El Centro as I recall. He chatted with some of us while he waited for the aircraft to be turned around for the hop back. That was the last time any of us talked to Jim. When he became overdue at El Centro a search was initiated, but I don't recall those details.

As Moose mentioned the wing did indeed come apart, but in four sections. The outer wing panels, followed by two sections of the main wing that basically separated along a line from the wing incidence actuator attach fitting aft toward the trailing edge. All four sections fell along the flight path coming out of the camelback pass into the desert floor area toward Ocotillo Wells, leading up to the hole in the ground made by the impact of the fuselage. I also believe the sections on the right ended up on the left side of the flight path and vice versa, so they all crossed over the fuselage during their separation. I don't recall that the two outer wing panels hit one another, but that certainly seems possible.

The consensus was that Jim had most likely flat-hatted to NKX in very calm air over the desert, but the turbulent air field created by warming as the sun rose, while still calm in the mountains still covered by a cloud layer, was his demise. I imagine all of us who flew over that area on a hot day, particularly at low levels, remember how rough the ride would be on those days. I don't recall the exact figure, but LTV engineers gave an estimate of the airspeed where catastrophic failure would have occurred coming from very calm air in the mountain pass into the vertical gust field over the desert. It may have been around 480 kts or so, but that seems low to me for some reason. The sudden gust loading may have excited a flutter mode past the structural design limit for that flight condition. Whatever the failure mechanism, the pictures showed the story and having the four wing pieces to analyze made the engineering assessment possible. The hole in the ground was pretty small so the impact was at a very high speed and there was not much to recover. The accident investigation team found the remnant of Jim's watch. Only the main watch body was recovered; a Rolex Submariner with a black face. The hands and crystal were missing and the stainless steel case was twisted about 15 degrees or so from its original flat condition. For some reason that was something that has been burned into my memory all these years; the watch basically looked like a Salvador Dali painting, or sculpture in this case.

Maybe Professor Bull or other engineers out there can add their opinion of possible failure mechanisms, but the wing most certainly broke up as I described. The only "good" thing about this accident was that Jim most likely died instantly when the gust loads hit the aircraft and the wing began coming apart due to that event or a combination of it and negative "g" forces once the wing was gone. I think Frank Bachman may have been in charge of the accident investigation and I am sure he could provide more detail if he is still around and on this net.

Scotty Bates

1199
I had no idea F-8 wing failures were so common. VF-162 and Air Wing 16 were doing warm-ups and practicing our air show for the dependents day cruise in May of 1967 just before shoving off for West Pac. I was on deck pre-flighting my aircraft in anticipation of strafing a spar towed behind the Oriskany. I could see the guys in the pattern from previous launch as they made high angle runs just aft of the ship. I had never seen strafing from outside the cockpit or at such close range. I remember thinking how nice it would look during the upcoming dependents day event. Curious to see what the roll-in looked like from ground level, I stepped out from under the wing of my plane so that I could observe the entire run. I knew that I might never have a chance to see this again; consequently, I wanted to fix the whole picture in my mind.

As it happened, I picked Lee Prost to watch and I closely observed him from the roll-in point all the way down. Just as he reached the firing altitude, his entire wing disintegrated. I'm not sure if he fired or not, but the wing instantly broke up into thousands of little pieces, most the size of a piece of typing paper. There was, of course, a huge ball of fuel vapor, but no smoke or fire. It was definitely a disintegration as opposed to an explosion.

The speed at which the wing came apart was almost unbelievable. One instant everything was OK. In the next instant there was a gigantic ball of stationary white vapor with thousands of confetti-like wing parts fluttering down. There was no sequence of events really, just ops normal and then in a blink of an eye, total disaster.

The fuselage appeared to be intact as it slowly pitched nose up and started tumbling backwards. I was yelling, "Eject, Eject, Eject" as there was plenty of time to do so before the fuselage hit the water; I would guess 4 seconds at least, perhaps more. That doesn't sound like much, but I remember being impressed with how long it seemed at the time. The fuselage made just over two complete backward rotations and impacted on its belly just aft of the ship.

Speculation from some pilots was that Lee was incapacitated by the high g-forces, but as someone formally educated in aerodynamics, that doesn't make sense to me. The load on the aircraft in the dive would have been less than one g. The wing came off well before the pull out point and without any wing, there was no aerodynamic surface remaining to produce significant acceleration. The aircraft didn't deviate at all from the original flight path although it seemed to slow down a little bit. The backward tumbling appeared to me to be less violent than an amusement park ride; slow motion almost. I fully expected Lee to eject, but no such luck.

Perhaps a gun exploded. The event happened almost exactly at the pre-briefed firing altitude, but I didn't see any smoke or hear any report from the cannons.

Bob Walters

1200

One thing to consider about the gent that lost his wing on the way to El Centro. When the wing came off, there is a high probability of negative G's on the bird. On the 63-64 deployment on the Midway, we lost an F4 off the cat. Maintenance had done some work on the ejection seat, and had failed to lock the seat to the rails. On the cat stroke, the seat moved up far enough to fire the drogue chute. Canopy comes off and the drogue chute streams. The back-seater initiated ejection, but because the canopy was blocked by the streamed chute. the firing sequence could not be completed. The canopy cracked a few inches, but that was as far as it would go. It was determined that the pilot could not reach the alternate handle and the streamed chute blocked access to the primary handle. The bird pitched up and then went in directly in front of the Midway, It is highly likely the F8 aviator was pinned against the canopy and could not reach ether of the ejection options.

Scott Ruby

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