gatrtalz 11

Gator Tales - Page 11 - 1001 - 1100

Morest at rest

THE FOLLOWING HAVE BEEN SUBMITTED BY VARIOUS F-8 DRIVERS AND/OR MAINTAINERS. NO ATTEMPT HAS BEEN MADE TO EDIT, OR EVEN ORGANIZE IN A LOGICAL FASHION.

1001
I was not an LSO, but after a near night ramp strike, burner climb over the ramp, I became a bit more of a student of carrier landings. Vern Jumper was usually my LSO on Midway during '63-'64 as Det Alfa was attached to VF-21. We docents on Midway are instructed that the glideslope was set at 3.5 degrees. I remember one extraneous incident when the lens setting was different. Midway was operating in the Bashi Channel and the wind was at least 40 knots. The glideslope was set to 4 degrees as a result of the wind. I had landed, taxied to the starboard cat area where the aircraft was tied down. As I exited the aircraft, I was looking aft to observe an F-8C pilot spot the deck and "go for it". Fortunately the result was not nearly as bad as it might have been, sheared starboard MLG flew forward right below where I was about to step down out of my aircraft, and the F-8C caught a wire, stopping safely, but for the missing MLG. When one watched the PLAT, it was like the aircraft stopped flying, just over the ramp. We were de-briefed that with high winds, and the 4 degree glide slope setting, it was not unusual for fairly exotic sink rates approaching the ramp.

It is interesting that the glide slope was apparently set higher on the 27-C boats. My second cruise was on Rampage, and my boarding rate was better than that on Midway. I assume that was with a steeper glide slope. Of course maybe it was simply that it was my second cruise, more experience ...

V/R, Roger D. Crim

1002
Right on target, Bull. 43 years later, and you proved this is the same crash. Navy personnel told us this aircraft hit a ship with a sidewinder missile before the crash. It was so hard to believe that I always left that out ... and I thought it could be 'confirmation' if true. As I now see it is. And the dates agree.

You're right, there is no Miramar Mountain. Black Mountain is maybe 2 miles north of the crash site. The country was somewhat flat, hills no higher than 30 feet, small creek beds in between. It was miles of empty brush then, but now it's completely residential. As near as I can remember, there is a park at or close to the crash site. Appropriate place for some kind of remembrance. The sound of the crash woke us up in the fire station, and we followed the flames from the small brush fire. We were there all night and into daylight. Later, ordnance and investigation people arrived later, including a circling Navy helo, filming the site.

One of the Crusader's wingtips plowed a very long 'trench' leading to final impact. I am now looking for my 2 photos, one of the engine, but more importantly a photo of a larger piece of the aircraft. I was barely able to make-out the "57" number and the black silhouette of an aircraft surrounded by a red square; both of these were on the wreckage.

Knowing the pilot's name is of course the most important. Whatever I do now will be respectful to LTJG Ohnemus. Now having his name and the "missile hit" confirmed I was able to find newspaper articles, one dated 13 Aug 68, about a ship being hit by 'possibly a missile' off the coast of Ventura/Point Mugu, then the next day about the crash itself, tying-in the boat hit. I had to save the articles from online piecemeal, but I'm including 'the gist' in a JPEG photo file. The article describes the vessel as a 175-foot oil survey ship, the 'Pacific Seal', with a crew of 18. It said the missile penetrated 3 compartments, injuring 3. They were flown off ship by USCG helo, and recovered.

Having lost my dad in a crash (I was 9), I relate very much to this. To find info about my dad's 14-year Navy career I began searching in the '90's, bugged the Hell out of NARA; very little was known aside from a very small, 1-column, maybe 4-inch long article on the back page. My dad's crash site is in Italy, somewhere in an industrial area. No monuments; we're still trying to get access. This pilot died on U.S. soil, yet I searched intermittently from 2000 until this year, before you were finally able to give a name, and confirm the sidewinder anecdote. I now know, 43 years later, that he was LTJG Roman S. Ohnemus, 25, of Whittier. Yet all I could find online was the short articles, and a one-line obituary. The 1955 crash site where my dad (the VC-8 'Savage' plane captain) and the pilot and co-pilot died had a small footprint: The AJ-1 fell straight down (due to hydraulic and engine failure), and all hands were in the wreckage. A USMC Sergeant was in charge of the security detail, and I was able to find him. I was aware of this while at the Crusader crash site, just 13 years later. Never forgot that, but always felt that emptiness not knowing about the pilot. I know what his family went through.

Nuf' said, thanks for letting me air that. I'd like do what I can to remember Rome. There are so many more, especially those who were lost in Viet Nam, along with 'everyday' incidents. My dad loved flying, so do I, and I know that's the bottom line. I crew here in California for the Wings of Freedom Tour (www.cfdn.org) aboard a B-24j Liberator, and help with the B-17g Fort and TP-51c Mustang. I can't properly show the respect and regard for so mny, so I'll make sure whenever I can that this one pilot is remembered.

It's great that your website driver passed-on my first email to 900+ other F-8 drivers; very-much appreciated! Bravo-Zulu! Anything I have I'm glad to share. Respect and best regards, Bull

Bish

Greg Bishop

1003
Having made three deployments on the Midway - two before the SLEP, and the first after the SLEP - landing on the boat was a lot different. When they put the big deck on her, she stopped moving like she used to. Wallowed a bit more, but the pitching and rolling was significantly less. Not much of a figure eight movement at all. I think when they increased the angle on her, it took a lot of the trouble with the burble away. At night, it was lit up like a Christmas tree. Could see people on the deck when going down wind during CARQUAL's. The C-11 cats were replaced with the C-13 cats - 50 foot longer stroke. Rollout was 100 feet longer. The burble was less. Could actually park aircraft left of the landing area. 2 F4's. Centerline strobe lights, and drop lights were also a plus. No longer had to line up half-way between the white landing area lights. Coming aboard at night could actually see the entire landing area for better depth perception. Everything worked - a real pleasure to operate off her.

When I was cat officer on the Enterprise, we recovered 4 F8's from the Bonnie Dick - because apparently their arresting gear broke. It was sort of funny watching them land. Seemed like they got to the ramp, looked up, and still have a half mile to go. Took a few high dips it seemed like. Getting them off was a real problem. The fight deck crew had not worked with F8's since a CARQUAL period, and they did not have the deck marked, and had forgotten how to do it. Launched them off the waist. On the first try, missed the lineup, took the bird off the cat, and tried to turn him back for another try. I am standing there, waiting for the next try at spotting a bird, and this body comes rolling by me. I looked back and the yellow shirt was turning bird around about 20 feet from me. The tail pipe is rapidly coming towards me, and its sweeping anything in its path. I go down, reaching for a pad eye, missed, and get bounced down the deck 10 -20 feet. Banged up my leg. I am sure the F9 drivers thought it was pretty funny.

Scott Ruby

1004
One of the beautiful things about a single piloted aircraft is the quality of the social experience.

Locust
Steve Stevens

1005
Speaking of the "quality of the social experience", it might be fun to hear from our glorious LSO's regarding their use of the MOVLAS during those most memorable, night moving deck recoveries. What was the "effective glide slope" that they utilized?

Chance
Bill Catlett

1006
Willie Sharp was on the platform when I came aboard into the barricade, and a NORDO at that, but I figured he wasn't going to let me hit the ramp, so with confidence I pressed on. Since I didn't get a wire the previous pass and with all the red lights I had on in the cockpit I figured the barricade was rigged for me. I think it was an " OK barricade".

Ray Slingerland

1007
Came across the LSO Natops Manual published in 2001. Has a good explanation of glide slope, lens settings etc. in section 4. No reference to 27C's, though.
http://www.navyair.com/LSO_NATOPS_Manual.pdf

Jim Matheny

1008
On the 1960 Oriskany cruise I was the CVG-14 staff LSO and flying with VF-142. We had an Air Pac LSO, Wes Thew, aboard for the first half of the cruise until he separated from the navy in Japan to escape his ex-wife's demands and marry his local sweetheart, as I remember. Anyway, he brought aboard his development of the "mechanical meatball" as we called it then. To my knowledge, it was the original use of this landing aid. We had a lever handle to position the meatball on the track as we saw fit to control the glide slope position. It was our best guess as to what the glide slope angle was. I was never very comfortable using it, and in fact, the only landing accident I ever controlled was a crusader that collapsed a main landing gear going for the deck when using it. I'm not so sure he trusted me, and I'm not so sure I blamed him. I think I might have had him a bit high at the ramp. Anyway, CVG-14 and VF-142, in particular, had a great bunch of pilots that had an excellent safety record on that deployment.

John S. Allen

1009
My friend and roommate Guido Carloni was killed in a ramp strike while we were running the deck at night off Hawaii on Hancock. My plane captain and I almost got it also, as the debris and fireball hit us just aft of the island. Would have ejected if I could gave remembered whether or not I was strapped in. Luckily, I didn't. Guido remained on deck, but the aircraft completely cleaned off the lens and lens platform. We were delayed in port Pearl while they took the entire lens and platform off Kearsarge and flew it to us. We left with technicians working to replace the lens. We worked MOVLAS for many weeks on the line, day and night. Really got good at knowing the voice of the LSOs. Some inspired confidence, some didn't. Even after the lens was up something was wrong with it. Wasn't discovered until later after LSOs complained it wasn't right and we had at least two ramp strikes with Rick Amber and John Bodanske. Maybe the lens contributed, maybe not ... Ed

Ed Brown

1010
Wes Clarke]
I made a Med cruise with Wes in VF-13. He was not your run of the mill pilot. He was taller, smarter, and more athletic than most. He did so well on the GREs I tried to talk him out of being an airline pilot. I told him with his brains, he should do something more important. When I heard he was writing and selling software to other Radio Shack owners that he had written I wasn't surprised. When I heard he was making and selling professional grade water skis, I wasn't surprised either.

He hit the ramp during the day. For weeks enlisted men, especially the parachute riggers, were watching the video in the ready room. Normally our ramp strikes were at night so they couldn't see how the ejection sequence worked. They were fascinated by his video.

He and I were out on a flight of two one day in the Med. Wes came up to say he had a fire warning light. He was told to divert to Decimomannu and I was told to go with him. I joined up on him and looked him all over, told him he looked good, then moved away. I said, "Wes, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to put a little distance between us as we head for Decci." He laughed and said, "You son of a bitch, you don't want to be close to me just in case, right?" I said, "Possibly."

One day our skipper, Stolly, was asking Wes about his slow response to radio calls on a flight. Wes said he had taken the top off the radar scope to adjust it. Stolly went ballistic. Wes is the only one I heard of that could adjust the radar in flight by taking the top off.

Larry Durbin

1011
I was one of the fortunate young pilots who had the opportunity to go through the early stages of F8U-1 Crusader training at Moffett Field In mid-1959. I was assigned to VFP-61 in San Diego and had completed my first cruise on Shangri La in 1958 in F9F-8P Cougars (off-loaded most of the cruise at Atsugi and Cubi Point. The agreement between AirPac, VFP-61 and whatever the F8 Rag was called at the time (it wasn't yet named VF-124 – seems that it may have still been a detachment of either VF(AW)3, the West Coast air defense command or the instrument training squadron at Moffett.) was that as photo pilots we were given an instrument check by the local F9F-8T instrument training squadron (flew with Connie Ward there), F8U academic ground school and an approximately 20 hour familiarization flight syllabus. We then returned to San Diego where we completed the photo syllabus and carrier qualification in our local command. I attended the Moffett training with LT Jerry Ketchmark and LCDR Art Heinze of VFP-61 in May and June of 1959. The aircraft we flew there were F8U-1s. I can't remember if there were any F8U-2's there at that time. My first flight was May 6, 1959 in BUNO 145412 and I was chased by Lcdr George Ellis. The instructors had put so much ground training emphasis on not dragging the tail pipe on landing that I remember thinking as I got into the air and found myself sitting way out in front in the nose of that (then) very large fighter without any visual wing or tail references, "How in the hell am I going to land this thing and keep from hitting the tail pipe on the runway?" (It turned out that really was not a problem, the F8 was an easy plane to land on the field.)

My memory is that Bill Russell, a personal "hero", was an instructor in the squadron at the time and one who was accorded a great deal of respect. There were any number of very colorful individuals in the outfit including Whitey Varner, Pete Carroll, and a number of guys who later deployed with us on Ranger (in VF-91, later VF-194) including Gene West who was my maintenance officer in VF-124 sixteen years later. During our time at Moffett, the F8 Rag had a bounce detachment operating out of Crows Landing OLF "in the desert." Among the pilots were Bill Russell, Cdr. Ted Dankworth, a Commander who was scheduled to be the CO of an F8 operational fighter squadron and Ace Jewell was the detachment Landing Signals Officer (LSO). At that point, I was a pretty straight-laced, wet-behind-the-ears (read boring) LT and I was used to LSO's like Bosco Welch and Danny Cross, our VFP waivers who were kind of "fatherly figures" to the squadron jo's. At Moffett, although it was clear from the start that Ace was a very well-respected LSO he also was known to be a "very colorful individual" who was not always conventional in his commentary. To the best of my memory, the following is a true story of an event that transpired in the bounce pattern at Crows Landing.

Ted Dankworth, a very large man who filled up even the F8 cockpit, was in the touch and go bounce pattern and in moving around the cockpit he apparently ejected his canopy as he was approaching Ace and the landing mirror. Ace apparently took exception to that maneuver and read the Cdr the riot act over the radio describing both the pilot and his actions in very direct and colorful language. Someone in the squadron, perhaps Whitey, was listening over the squadron radio and before long everyone in the command became aware of Ace's very colorful and very explicit description of both the pilot and the ensuing actions. The event left a lasting impression on most of us young guys! Anyway, the punch line is that it was considered almost impossible to get the canopy replaced on Ted's bird at Crow's Landing so Bill Russell put on a leather flight jacket over his summer flight suit and flew the open-cockpit F8 back through San Francisco traffic control to Moffett Field. Unfortunately, to get over the mountains and avoid other traffic, Bill had to climb to altitude and spend a few minutes there and nearly froze his backside off. It took him quite a while to "thaw-out" once he back got on the ground at Moffett.

There were a lot of wonderful people and tales that came out of "VF-124" in those Moffett days – sadly, a number of the pilots and events might not have faired well in today's "Politically Correct Environment."

Warmest regards to Ace and all!

Al Fancher,

1012
Jet Jennings and the eclipse…

In the old days of Naval Aviation reservedom, creativity was often in order. Things were a bit loose in 1970. So Jet and Billy Davis, squadron mates in DC's VF-11A1, went to chase the eclipse one way, I used another. Figured I could log a night landing in the daytime if I timed it right so I checked the time-of-eclipse-arrival at Oceana. Armed with the info, I wandered down to NTU. (We could do such things in those days when the only requirement for positive control was for the DC area. It was an ancient concept called VFR.) I jumped into the NTU pattern and began to time my touch-and-goes to land during the eclipse. The timing problem was eased by a clear pattern--it was a weekend. As the TOA neared I had worked my way onto short final, and when the eclipse arrived the experience was not only unique but etherial. The shadow came rapidly toward me like a black window shade, rolling down the 12,000 ft runway in 2-3 seconds. I touched down in darkness and just after liftoff, I was back in daylight.

Pete Purvis

1013
Their philosophy indicates the big difference between Naval Aviation and our other sister flying services. In Naval Aviation, we have always taken the position that if NATOPS doesn't rule against, YOU CAN DO.

Whilst flying with the Army and Air Force, I found that if NATOPS didn't say you could do something, then YOU CAN'T DO.

Vivre la difference.

Chance
Bill Catlett

1014
Bill Catlett's illuminating distinction between the Navy and Brand X/Y in what requires Official Permission recalls an event from 1966. The late-great (great) Red Carmody was CO of The Hawk who conspired with his fellow CV-6 alum, Jig Dog Ramage on CTF staff. Red had a strike prepped for the coal port of Cam Pha, which some persons in a pentagonal building might have disapproved for targeting. As Cat One fired, Red sent a message announcing that Unless Otherwise Directed, he was launching. Of course, the Unodir took time to make its way up and down the food chain, and the ship's comm dept. proved woefully inefficient in passing along the reply.

IIRC, the no-go response coincided with the strike's egress....

Barrett Tillman

1015
[This story from another forum where the fate of 143710 (the two-seater) was discussed.]

It was still there when I went thru TPS in '70.

I got to fly it for a stall flying qualities hop and it almost bit me big time.

Because of the flying qualities of the F-8, we were required to do our dirty (landing configuration) stall eval at 12,000 ft vice 10,000 ft as with other birds. It was an unusually calm day and I was able to walk the airplane down a knot at a time very slowly until I got it to some ungodly number of units of angle of attack, well past where it should have departed, when it finally let go with a big yaw to the right to inverted. I let everything go and was looking straight down at the Chesapeake basically at no airspeed with the wing up and gear down. I figured I needed airspeed so I lit the burner and accelerated to 220kts and began to pull 2 gs which was the wing up limit. So at 220/2gs I began to recover and passing 5000 feet going down like a brick I guess I should have punched out, but losing the "football" would have been a lot of paperwork, so I stayed with it and leveled out at something around 500ft.

Finished my data gathering for the old school, and went back to PAX. Probably should have said something, but since I didn't break anything, I counted myself lucky and pressed on.

Thanks for resurrecting the memory!

Doyle Borchers

1016
At TPS on April 17, 1967 I flew TF-8A 143710 in April 1967 as a test pilot at NASA Langley. I'd been selected to fly the F8C DLC airplane for a short NASA Program to look at the merits of direct lift control - an old friend and TPS classmate, DZ Skalla, was Deputy Director at TPS and arranged it to help me prepare for that Program. LCDR Gary Wheatley gave me a cockpit checkout and flew back seat. There was a lot of concern about the flying qualities of the SST, a big effort judging competing designs of the SST by North American, Lockheed, and Boeing. Nobody knew just what it would look like, but it was obvious that the fuselage would be long and dense, meaning that tracking a glideslope or flaring to land would mean both a delay in flight path change and undesirable fuselage rotation. NASA was involved in the judging which was guided (?) by the FAA SST Development Office in Washington.

With the F8C, I flew 200 ILS-type approaches and landings at various glideslopes - the DLC was great in every way. We had an airspeed-sensing autothrottle which helped a lot. In July '67 I had 2 flights in the Boeing 367-80, with a DLC system using the wing spoilers. Some fun flying, but then in 1966 the SST went down the tubes. DLC was a valid concept currently used by some of the heavies.

Ref. the Garland Goodwin note, I was a flight test engineer at Vought 1956-58 and also remember the fuselage rotation to shake out the loose stuff. Vought was a good company, unafraid to take on major risks - the bentwing bird was a novel approach to carry a big prop, but the F7U, with flying wing design and the first full-power flight control system, the supersonic F8, with variable-incidence wing to keep the fuselage more level for landing, and the F5U flying pancake, were major risks in my opinion. Speaks for outstanding engineering leadership at that time. I remember Charley Coleman, a senior aerodynamicist, telling me that with the F5U they even had to deveop fully-articulating props to allow it to decelerate to a hover. In a way, too bad peacetime struck and it was all canceled before any testing.

James M. Patton, Jr.

1017
A few words about Dick Thomas and a short story that no one has probably ever heard before. I met Dick in the early 70's when we were both ship's company on the Sara. He wore quite a few ribbons but never mentioned having flown the Crusader. When the Sara went to Vietnam in '72 he was still ship's company; I transitioned to the airwing for about half the cruise. Shortly after returning from Vietnam, a small gaggle of pilots decided to attend a Red River Valley Fighter Pilots gathering in Chicago; Dick was included in the group. We were casting about looking for an inexpensive way to get to Chicago. Someone knew the C.O. at Glenview and it was arranged that a reserve P-3 would pick us up at Cecil Field at 0900 on the appointed day. Six of us, including Dick, were at base ops at 0900 only to be told that the P-3 had a maintenance problem and would not arrive until 1130. We retired to the BOQ and made a gallant try at emptying the beer machine. On the way back to base ops we detoured via the liquor store for some vodka and bloody mary mix which got stashed in our parachute bags. The P-3 arrived on the revised schedule and we scurried up the boarding ladder with a couple of windmills still turning. We retired to the galley area, broke out a deck of cards for a game of "smoke" and continued with the party. About halfway to Chicago the plane commander, a reserve O-4, paid a visit and tried, unsuccessfully, to give us some grief. As the senior officer present, Dick told the gent that if he didn't get his butt back to the cockpit that we would fly the aircraft for him. As a parting shot Dick informed the plane commander that he had damn well better get a haircut. We never saw him again. Yes, I think Dick was a fighter pilot.

Norm Green

1018
Don Hegrat story: When I was going thru flight training at NAS Kingsville as a student, I hadn't had a "down" all the way thru. I was in 212 in Instruments ... I flew a perfect check ride, only to find out that I actually, "penetrated" against the rules. The weather was below minimums. Geeze. What a bad guy. The Instructor took me into Hegrat's office ... he was Ops. Explained the whole thing. Hegret looked at me sweating. Can you fly again right now? Yessir. We flew over where I did the bad thing, and he said, "the weather is really shitty, what are you going to do?" "I'm going to my alternate, Sir!" Fine, lets go home. We flathatted the beach and we made several landings at Alice Orange Grove. Great guy.

Hook Miller.

1019
The 21 was a formidable foe; in some flight regimes it could hold sway, in others it could not. "

I can still recall watching the "Have Drill" and "Have Doughnut" films in VF-124 in early 1970 less than a year after Top Gun came into existence.

Many of the pilots who flew in and against the exploitation assets during the the "Drill" and "Doughnut" projects are still with us.

Getting flight time with one of the exploitation assets was very special... While I was at VX-4, I had the opportunity to fly against the Fishbed during the AIM-9L Joint Opeval/IOT&E... The "come away" was profound... A magic missile like the AIM-9L made a world of difference in the engagement outcome... Having said that, in reality, there was much more to winning an engagement than than having a magic missile...

I also had the pleasure of serving under one of the pilots who flew in this project and who was also one of the MIG Masters now no longer with us ... Tooter Teague.. I spent many fascinating hours talking with Skipper Teague on this topic when he was CO, USS Kitty Hawk, and later as the Division Chief in the Operations Directorate, USPACOM.

Tooter had done the sterile side-by-side performance comparisons with the exploitation assets and also the free play "get it on," one-on-one ACM engagements, so knew where each aircraft had an advantage or was clearly disadvantaged. Tooter also knew first hand that there was much more to the winning equation than acceleration, thrust to weight, wing loading, turn rate and turn radius... Winning required excellence in fighter doctrine, tactics and training...

I still remember him saying, "You've got to be prepared... mentally and physically..." as well as the time worn adages of... "You fight like you train," Know your enemy," "Know your weapons system like the back of your hand," "Maintain section integrity." "SPEED IS LIFE," "and when the fuel and weapons remaining start to get low... Know when to Bug Out!"

Take care,

V/R, Batch
Pete Batcheller

1020
For info on the test and eval of the MIG-21 google "Have Doughnut" and "MIG-21 evaluation" and it will lead you to all kinds of stuff on the evaluations done in the 60's. Doughnut was the first of many interesting evals. I flew in the Doughnut series when I was in VX-4 at Pt Mugu.

Chuck Klusmann

1021
Hold its own? Not in my lifetime. The 21 could race in on a radar guidance vector and try to run away. When I fought the 21 in 1968 it was easy to stay at its six o'clock and follow whatever maneuver it tried. It could not out turn the F-8, could not out run the F-8, and could not out fight the F-8. There is no comparison between the two. Who ever claims the 21 was superior in any way is not of this rational thinking, but must be on some hallucinogen that muddles the brain. Military channel my arse.

George Hise

1022
Re Mig-21 vs F-8, I'll add my two cents worth here.On 19 Sep '68, Tony Nargi & I (along with two Nickels from VF-211) engaged a couple of Mig -21's near Vinh. They were running a classic trail set-up and the lead guy was definitely a rookie cuz he'd reversed right in front of us when Nargi bagged him with a 9-D. The second guy knew what he was doing and blew thru us like a bat outta hell (we were low on energy from turning with the rookie). Fortunately we evaded this guy's Atoll and came back around on him as he was departing. Nargi fired a winder close aboard but well within the envelope and the Mig driver laid an eye watering bat turn on that bad boy easily defeating Nargi's winder. When the Mig pilot saw the miss, he immediately reversed again, all the while unloading & opening. I fired with a good tone and my winder tracked perfectly right up to the Mig but the rod must have expanded around him with little or no damage to the Mig. He simply had too much opening smack and by then was at the edge of the 9-D envelope. The whole fight occurred at around 5K feet. He knew exactly what he was doing. Hell I doubt if he ever took the cigarette out of his mouth during the whole evolution! Russkie maybe? Bottom line is that the Fishbed was a great machine in the right hands ... just like the F-8, F-4 or any other fighter airplane. As Adolf Galland once famously said ... " Only the spirit of attack borne in a brave heart will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.".

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Alex Rucker -- Rattler

1023
I have not flown against the '21, but have flown against the Mirage III in a Crusader. The comment re: the delta wing is very true -- a slow Mirage was toast. One of their (French) tactics was similar to that of the NVN: come screaming in on a radar vector, slash and run. Force them into a turning fight and things changed rapidly. I recall one instance of pulling up on the wing of one and flying formation on him while he struggled to turn and accelerate in afterburner.... I was in basic engine.

Dave Johnson

1024
Ahhh, those were the days. When I was at George flying weasels we were the 911 call when someone could not make it to the "training site" and fly with the assets. So we would get these calls the night before...Can you guys make an XX take off and join up at Tonapah? The answer was always yes, then the recall drill, who is in crew rest, who has been read in and is current, who has or has not had a hop with them, who can escort an FNG to a first flight on range, end results is we got our share of 19, 21 and 23 flights. Always eye opening was what they could do and surprising in what they could not do....training was never more real and rewarding. From the Phantom crowd, rules to live by: Don't ever try to turn with the with the 19 and never try and outrun the 23, and if you cannot learn to read the energy level of the 21 he would hook you every time! Cheers, Bob

Robert S. Brodel

1025
Hot Dog's mention of John Nichols' kill reminds me of a couple of items.

John had the mission tape, and from "I'll get him" to splash was 35 seconds. IIRC it was a left 90 and a right 270, all horizontal despite Pirate's mastery of the vertical. He said that in order to pitch up inside the initial turn he would've temporarily lost sight, and he was having none of that. "The white fangs came out and locked at Max Extend."

The second MiG was pitched out of the fight almost immediately. John said "Bill's initial break was the best turn I'd seen since Pensacola." John also said that Kocar was the most aggressive aviator in the fight. WHen the first MiG hit the ground, Bill said "Let's go find the other one." By then Feedbag was out of winders and low on ammo.

The tape ends with Phil Craven's modulated voice. "Alright, let's settle down, now. Think you can get that bird back aboard, John?"

"Goddam, CAG, I'll sure try."

Barrett Tillman

1026
More Crusader/Phantom vs Fishbed----Fall of '66, I lead a recce flight a few miles south of Haiphong; escort is F4B, don't remember if it was VF-14 or VF-32. Headed generally westward at 4,000 ft/ about 480 Kts. Red Crown calls on guard and warns of 2 high speed bogies, 15 miles north and closing fast. Our phantom pilots are very frustrated; no one has shot a Mig, not sure if anyone has even seen one. For a brief instant I want to turn into them; but then good sense takes hold. I'll be putting my escort into a one vs two situation and all I'll be able to do is cheer for him. Also not sure such a move would meet with the approval of the big boys. So I call "hang on", we turn hard port, stuff the nose down and light the burners. As we accelerate they continue to close---Red Crown advises us---7mi, 6mi, 5mi. We go to about 690 kts at 1,500 ft, They hold at 5 miles briefly and then we start to open the range. I think we are well in excess of the speed limits on the F4's 600 gal centerline tank, but no ones complaining. We run straight south for 30 miles gradually opening to 7 miles at which time the bogies break away and turn north. I do remember being briefed that the 21's don't like very high airspeeds in a high Q environment, guess thats a fact. Due to the extensive nav gear in the photo Crusader, I now have no idea where in the hell we are. I also know that the escort will shortly be screaming for fuel, so we call it a day and head for the tanker to get him some JP. Escorting photo Crusaders was not the strong suit of the F4B.

Norm Green,

1027
Pat (Peso) Scott, cruised with us in VF-24 in the '71-'73 time frame on Hancock...

Pat used to keep us in stitches with frequent recounts of his ramp strike ... and the fact that he had the distinction of running into both ends of the boat on a single pass ... Peso and his Crusader came down a little short of the ramp and he ejected as the burning fireball slid up the angle deck. Pat said he came down a second time in a streaming parachute a little past the bow...

Pat said his plane captain dove into the safety net next to the bridle arrester horn on Hancock's No 1 catapult track on the port bow to grab the canopy of his chute as it was slithering towards the water. Peso said his boots were dangling close enough to the water to hear the bow wave at that point...

He said his plane captain hauled him up by the shroud lines hand over hand until his helmet hit the big 6" pipe that framed the outer edge of the safety net between the two bridle arrester horns a couple times... The plane captain kept yelling "Lt Scott ... Lt Scott ... Are you OK?" Pat said he finally replied ... "Yes ... but please don't hit me in the head again ..." At that point, he said they flopped him into the trough of the safety net like a big tuna...

As they were hauling him aft towards Hancock's island on top of a huffer, Pat said he remembered Phil "Rat" Wood, the LSO who was waving that night, asking him if he was OK ... Pat's reply ... "Does this count as a night trap?" There was evidently part of the Crusaders tail section and tail hook tangled in the CDPs...

I don't have any details of his death.

Batch - VF-24

Pete Batcheller

1028
To add to Fig Newton's account of Pat's ramp strike.... I was on the platform (I think Phil Wood was waving) when he hit the ramp. I watched the fire and wreckage roll down the flight deck, hoping to see a rocket motor come out of it but there was nothing. There were fires on the water and the wing was floating by. I didn't think he made it.

I was the squadron safety O and down in sick bay a short time later taking Pat's statement when the ship's captain and Martha Raye walked in. She was on board as part of a USO show and had seen the whole thing from the bridge.

The captain told Pat that he appreciated Pat holding two thumbs up as he was being carted back to the island on the huffer. Ms. Raye said, "Those weren't his thumbs, Captain!"

Cole Pierce

1029
The ramp strike story regarding Pat Scott, reminds me a great deal of the story of Ben Walker's ramp strike on the Shang in 1964/65 time frame. The story, "the luckiest man alive" is in the book, Silver Step 210, that I penned in 2009.

Ben got the typical high, fast start and decelerated as he approached the ramp, Carl Jensen was waiving and I was writing the comments in the LSO book. Ben hit the ramp between the nose gear and main gear and the aircraft exploded into a ball of fire as Carl and the other, smarter guys, jumped into the escape net. Stupidly I stayed on the platform but in the prone position as the front portion of the aircraft continued up the deck with Ben in the cockpit. As he crossed the four wire he ejected. The cockpit and the nose section of the aircraft disintegrated into a million pieces just as Ben left the aircraft. I can still see him in my mind's eye as he rose high into the moon glow red lights we used in those days. He did a forward somersault and the chute streamed and popped open as he and the chute remained horizontal to the flight deck. By this time, I was sprinting up the flight deck.

Ben swung down like a pendulum as the chute filled with air and he hit the catwalk rail with his back just forward of the crotch of the angled deck. The chute billowed onto the flight deck and all the colored shirts jumped on the chute and began to pull Ben up. I arrived a few seconds before he rose to the level of the catwalk rail he had just hit and I was sure the impact had killed him. I can still see his eyes as he came up from the black abyss he had been swinging in at the end of the shroud lines. They were as big as saucers! He looked at me and said, Jim, am I dead? I assured him that he was not dead and the flight surgeons and other medical staff gently placed him in the basket like litter and took him to sick bay.

We completed the recovery and I returned to Ready Room 1, sure the Ben had been very seriously injured by his impact with the catwalk rail. In about 15 minutes, I was astounded to look around and see Ben walk through the Ready Room Door. We all gathered around him and I asked him, Ben, didn't you hurt you back when you hit the catwalk railing? He opened his flight suit and showed us a large bruise on his left butt cheek but he was otherwise unharmed!! We were all stunned. His seat pan had absorbed most of the impact and it was bent into a 45% degree angle by the force of the blow. But Ben was OK.

We watched the Plat of his ramp strike over and over and the more we analyzed his accident, the more we realized he was, indeed, the Luckiest Man Alive, had he ejected one split second sooner he would have swung down and landed very hard on the flight deck and perhaps have been killed! Had he ejected one split second later, he would not have survived because the nose and cockpit disintegrated completely with the forward instrument panel being found in the port forward gun tub. He or his body would have been thrown into the sea and most likely he would have drowned.

He ejected at the only split second he could have and survived! One split second either way would have meant his death almost certainly. Ben passed away back in 2000! We all know of such amazing stories of survival against all odds. I guess we are all blessed to still be vertical and to have known such wonderful guys and lived at the edge and lived to tell about it.

Jim Brady

1030
I launched single F8H from Navy New Orleans, La. on an intercept hop. It was a typical summer T-storm day in the South. On the way back, Navy New Orleans went 0/0 due to thunderstorms and driving rain. Being as I had expended large amounts of JP-4 in my favorite mode of "Crusader Flight"-- burner, I didn't have a lot of time to loiter for WX. I decided to land at MSY (Moisant) International which was marginal VFR. I taxied to the Delta Air Lines ramp where I was pilot for them in civilian life. My Delta line crew parked me took my DOD credit card for fuel and secured the aircraft. I told them to refuel me, keep an eye on the jet, and I would leave the next day. Bright and early the next day, I pre flighted, used Delta's huffer to start, and took off to the south, non burner so as not to draw attention to the noise footprint. They were noise sensitive in those days too. Several days later, I received several thousand "green stamps" in the mail for my fuel purchase at MSY. Remember green stamps? Got a great transistor radio made in Japan for them which I gave to my son. I also got a noise violation which occurred over Lake Ponchartrain at the same time as my departure. Luckily, we determined that an Air Force puke had made a low level run on a friend's house near the lake, so I skated on that one. He should have told ATC it was a radar calibration run and therefore, legal. That's how I did it, but not that day, and that's another story.

Pat McGirl

1031
Never too old to learn.... never did know about how that yaw stab sensor worked or where it was. All I know is, that after getting a few hefty yaw kicks going off the cat, it became my personal SOP to shut it off prior to a cat shot, and not re-engage until the eyeballs were caged. Since this was a JO-developed non-NATOPS solution, it was not mentioned. Wonder if anyone else did it.

Dave Johnson

1032
I had a flameout at 52,000 ft. one night when I got to acute in an intercept doing the old BCI procedure on Cdr. John Brown and did a high yo yo to stay behind him. Climbed through 52,000 in an old F8U-1 and got too slow on top. Tried to stroke the burner and "Bang" compressor stall and flame out. Instant pressure breathing and I choked out the words, "Flame out" over the radio. I don't think anyone heard me! I popped the Rat, and engaged its generator and accomplished the restart in just a few seconds. Flew back to Cecil without a problem other than the need for new skivvies!

Jim Brady

1033
Seeing Mo Wright's byline reminded me of an interesting night cat shot he took in the trusty Gator. Seems the panel right forward of the generator switches was not secured. On the cat shot, the panel came aft, turned both generator switches off (was the RAT switch normally ON?), and Mo had the presence of mind to fly the jet and stay out of the wet stuff. Good flying.

Cole Pierce

1034
There is no auto-deployment of the RAT. I had a generator failure in a F8C on my first attempt to get aboard at night during initial carqual on the Oriskany in Jan 1969. I just missed the 4 wire and the lights went out. I stroked burner and deployed the RAT. I was totally unprepared and did not have my flashlight out and attached to my torso harness. If I had, it would have almost been a non event. It took FOREVER for the RAT to come up to speed. It was totally black on an overcast night and all I had for reference was wind noise over the canopy. I remember a passing thought that if the wind noise began getting a lot louder, I was going to jump. I had no idea what my attitude or bank angle was. I was just pulling back as straight as I could so I knew I was definitely climbing. When the lights came back on and the radio came alive, I was wings level passing around 5,000 ft and the nose was about 45 degrees up with the LSO saying "You OK, You OK?." I remember replying, "I am now". I descended back down and got trapped on the next pass.

The seas were rough most of the time and no one got qualified. One main ldg gear failure, one tail pipe strike, one inflight engagement, one fatal ramp strike and finally, an A3 took out the lens and we went home.

Jim Kinslow

1035
Had not heard of burners blowing out above 48k. Have had C & H a tad above 50 on a couple occasions w/o incident (or pressure suit, just screwing off & burning fuel instead of dumping). One was between Eglin & Cecil -- in August of 66 had been stuck @ Eglin for a couple days wi/broken a/c. Well, actually it was Rick Parker's broken a/c. We had swapped out some E's for C's at NKX, on the way home his electronics went t.u. & NZC was at minimums, so we stopped at Eglin, he took my good bird & went home with promises to send fixemup guys. While hanging around there I saw in an Air Progress mag where a KC-135 crew had claimed the new paper airplane altitude record, launching one from 35k (previous holder was a Mustang @17k IIRC). An idle mind being the devil's playground, I came up with a scheme. Made a paper airplane, labelled it with info for any finder, and when the fixemup guys were done, stuck it in the drooping speed brake well, pumped it closed with that hand pump in the wheel well, fired up & blasted off. Left it in burner until indicating 50,125 -- no blowout -- opened the s/b & presumably launched my record setter. Opening the boards when thin air makes .9 IMN or so appear at only about 225 KIAS required an immediate refile for lower. But the deed had been done, and I think I still hold that record.

While loafing around there I was accosted by a General Dynamics guy. AF was doing some stuff with the F-111 there, and the Navy had not yet totally scrapped the -111B. He kept badgering me about how wonderful it was, and when I finally made some agreeable noises just to shut him up, he grabbed my arm, pulled me into their office spaces, and yelled "Hey guys, here's a Navy pilot who thinks the 111 is a good bird!" I think I was still a brown bar at the time, hardly a credible witness. Anyway, he gave me a factory model of the -B as my reward.

Sometime in the late 90's or early 00's, I was contacted by the son of F8 driver Buck Wangeman. Buck had become a Grumman test pilot, and had been lost in a 111B crash. At some point I swapped that model to A4 driver Ivy Ivis for a revolver or something. When I heard from Buck's son, I told Ivy (by then a Delta 777 captain) about it. He gave it back to me, and I passed it along. That model is now, finally, with someone who deserves to have it.

Dave Johnson

1036
I flew the early F8U-1 (No angle of Attack) in 57-59 in VF-142 at NKX. In 58 we did a fleet evaluation of the full pressure suit. So, along with that we did some high altitude flying above 50G. Although we only had 50,000 foot altimeters, they would normally go to 52-53 before they stopped unwinding. I have continued on climbing for a couple minutes past that before starting back down again. I never had a burner problem. Had a couple of 104s come up one day but it was easy to turn inside them even at that altitude. The real fun was coming back down again. The acceleration was fast and once you got the nose down it took a while to get it back to level. I don't have a great memory anymore, but I don't remember anyone complaining of having a burner blowout.

Howie Brown

1037
How about this, the paper airplane launched at 50125 feet during its reentry, went supersonic and the heat created on the leading edges burnt the plane up; and that's why no one has ever reported finding it ... And if you buy that i have a bridge in new york i would like to talk to you about ...

Also, knowing the energy required to dog fight, (ACM) in the high forty's and lower fifties I have my doubts about being able to pull one's nose up and in basic engine get from the high forties (48000 to 51-52,000) to the low fifties. Most times I know of by guys in the Squadron, unless supersonic, you couldn't get the nose around, let alone up, pointed at anyone, unless they were below you. I had several pressure suit hops hitting the 79000+ foot mark with guys going a little higher. How many topped 81,000 feet? We (my group) were briefed to come out of burner passing through 200kts indicated and of course we were just missiles heading in the direction we basically entered the climb until reaching the apogee, and the plane arching over and heading down hill, (don't touch the controls until 220 Kts?).. We spent several days being fitted for the suits, and months waiting for them to be built; had special buildings built for their storage, briefings and men (AME's) specially trained to maintain them. Spent time in NAS Jax pool, and on the ejection seat for training. The Briefing room seats all had a/c hose's for plugging into your suit to keep us comfortable and we made just a few flights until that program was cancelled and a few million had been poorly spent on a poorly thought out idea. In VF-62 we also lost a Crusader on takeoff, blamed on the space suit. I believe it all came from the old Smil'in Jack comic strip and Russian's planes sent to drop the bomb on us. I enjoyed the experience, time in training and limited flight time, BUT, nice thought. The plane had very limited ability to change directions by more than a few degrees once the ZOOM climb was started.. Anymore info from this line of endeavor by anyone?

Larie Clark

1038
As a student in the RAG (124 at Miramar) they were still doing the high altitude pop up during the syllabus. I went through the procedures for my pop up with my IP following. He couldn't keep up as I had a well tuned engine. He asked my altitude and I reported back climbing through 56,000. He said it was time to push over. No compressor stall, but the engine sure did sound weird. I think my fuel flow was +- 100#. Got a great view of Earth curvature and the black of space. Must have made an impression as I remember it well 45 years later!

Fred Kruger

1039
Well I don't think I was the only pilot to pass 50,000 ft going higher. In the F-8D model off Miramar I got into a high speed scissors and found the plane at about a 20 degree nose up at 50k. I rolled over and kept positive g's through 54,000 with a nice smooth engine all the way. It gets dark up there, but being a fearless fighter pilot, I didn't think much about it. I figured that my blood would boil after the pressurization failed and I would be under 50k in a few seconds. Maybe that explains why my blood boils so easily now.

George Hise

1040
Was on a two week annual deployment to Rosey Roads, many years ago. I was informed I had to get 3 night time hours. I was scheduled for two hops, back to back. We were using C models at the time, what a great aircraft. Took off in military and slowly cruise climbed right up to level 500. Beautiful clear moist night. I went round the island of Puerto Rico over and over, till I had almost 3 hours of looking at and enormous amount of baseball diamonds, and all the cities. I finally started a rapid descent to head back to base. Full defrost on and as I reached about 10k couldn't see a thing for all the misted up windows. Reached up and tried to wipe it off with my glove, but just clouded up again. Still descending to pattern altitude and wiping off forward glass., several times, it started to clear about five out, super cooling was the problem. After landing, and taxiing in the whole plane was full of dew, just dripping of the aircraft at shutdown. Total time, 3.1 hrs.and whoops, no pressure suit. What a blast.Also that night a few of the guys got together and tied a bunch of beer cans to the local crabs and put the in John Barnes room. He came trucking in later and of course they started running all over the place, making quite a bit of noise. John, I think, survived the Cutlass. Coming from an attack background, Skyraiders, and then the Crusader, probably to of the greatest airplanes of the Navy. Oh another story, Dave Maskell, had to punch out of one, and was wearing I think a British flight suit at the time.

Duane Kalember

1041
Regarding the J-57 above 50,000 ft, when I was going through the RAG (VFP-63) in '74-'75, the FRPs had a lot of freedom to try to kill themselves. There was a little contest on solo DDAs (day dick-around flights as the IPs called them) to see how high you could get the J or G models we were flying. The Holy Grail was 70K. For one reason or another, I never got the opportunity to try, but I remembered the challenge when I got to the Reserves in VFP-206. One day I took an RF-8G with the P-420 engine (19,500 lbs of thrust) in the Warning Area off VACAPES up to 70K. Took two spend runs and zooms to get there. The gouge we used was light the burner below 50K and leave it in burner until back below 50K. Of course we were too dumb to ever look at temperatures at altitude, etc. I also used to go on night flights to the Warning Areas and see how many sunsets I could see. Would try to take off from NAF Washington at sunset, climb to 10K or so enroute and see another sunset, wait until the sun was completely gone, climb until I could see another one, and keep doing that once I got in the area. Used to go above 50K on those flights all the time, and, again, no problems. Wasn't until many years later at NASA that I learned about the Armstrong Curve and realized how lucky we all had been without pressure suits. Luck usually beat skill, or brains for that matter, most of the time. Sure glad Someone was watching over us.

I wonder if any other group of folks ever had as much fun in life as we all did in the F-8. As we used to say at Miramar, there was the Law of Conservation of Fun. There was only so much fun in the world, and it could neither be created nor destroyed. Since there was so much misery in the world, we took it upon ourselves to keep the laws of nature in balance by making up for all the unfun situations we heard about. We sure did a great job!

Moon Rivers

1042
Early 1960's in VF174 Frank Austin chased most of the pressure suit fam hops and I was usually his back up. When he left the task fell to me for a while. We would run out to 1.5-1.6 and pull back to about 30 degrees as I remember. We would leave it in burner until rounding out on top. I think we came out of AB about 175K. If your nose wasn't through the horizon by about 150 knots there was a good chance of compressor stalls and flame out.

I had one zoom climb without a pressure suit. I got launched for real on Stan Smith's wing during the Cuban missile crisis. He picked up the bogy on his radar with near full up tilt at 40,000 and vectored me ahead in AB for the pull-up. Stan was really good, because the minute I had my nose well up, the CIA U2 was in sight and lineup was so good I rounded out close enough to read the small numbers on his aft fuselage. Turns out he was gear down descending or we would never have gotten close. I guess the Air Force thought it might be a Mandrake.

Pete Peters

1043
Dirtied up an RF8G once at 45,000 (was below 220KIAS and there was no Mach limit mentioned). Came down like a safe. Did lots of photo work up to 50,000. Had to be careful turning around to fly the next flight line -- liked to go supersonic if you dropped the nose much at all, not a good idea over large cities. Some of our aircraft had lap patches on the droops, they did not operate well above 45,000 -- too much drag.

Will Gray

1044
I was in VF-62 at the same time as my good friend, Larie Clark, and remember the whole pressure suit thing. The highest I flew in that program was 58,000 as I recall. The suits had to be air conditioned because they were so well insulated that you could feel your legs heating up when you first stuck them into the suits. I topped out at 58,000 one other time (without a pressure suit) flying wing on Beaver Heiss somewhere south of Guantanamo Bay. I remember the darkness of the sky and the curvature of the earth very well. On the way back down we were well supersonic when I decided that I was in too close with Beaver under the circumstances. But as I tried to move away, I could feel his shock wave and I couldn't seem to cross it to move out laterally. I stayed in burner but pulled the throttle back gently with no result. It was as if Beaver's plane was sucking me along, and that scared the devil out of me. I then popped the speed brake a little and that allowed me to fall back and get away from him.

Don Ressel

1045
What a fun and lively conversation about the F8 and its ability to top 50,000 feet. The F8U-1 or F8A,B,C and D could easily make 50,000 feet. It was not a big deal. The F8E could do it but you had to be in burner. I had no experience in the later versions. Of course, the guys are correct to say that doing it without a Full Pressure suit was fool hardy. I disliked flying in the Full Pressure suit because it restricted your movement and visibility to a great extent. ACM in a Full Pressure suit would be extremely difficult. I wonder if any of the guys did hassle in it? I guess the theory was that we would go up and do an intercept and shot the bad guys down without having the turn and burn. I don't think so!!!

Jim Brady

1046
While in VFP-63 in the 70's, I was tasked to take some air-to-air photos of a flight of 4 F4's. Wanted to to get a formation with contrails at one time. Kept climbing until we were well above 50K. Finally got contrails at about 52K. Interesting to watch a flight of 4 F4's try to fly close formation at that altitude. My maneuverability was not tht great trying to get the pictures. The J57 P22 engine did not have the power of the P420, burner would light, but if took forever. Really gets mushy. Stand it on its wing and you really come down.

Scott Ruby

1047
Our CO decided that we needed to fly off Intrepid in our F8-1E's on a cruise in the Med circa '60-'61 in pressure suits as a routine measure so we would feel comfortable in them (joke of the century). Not a fun time. Ergo, we suited up all the time for routine hops. A side note: these airplanes were very old and had more high energy landings than normal landings so they had been around the block a time or two. On one such occasion Bill Albertson and I were on a CAP hop at about 30k when his suit inflated while he was on a NNW course heading for France -- some hose disconnected. He couldn't get his arm down to key the mike to tell me what was wrong, and why he continued on that heading without answering anyone. I joined on him to see his head straight ahead with the tops of his arms slightly above the canopy rail -- by this time we were very close to going feet dry (a big no-no at the time) and I was considering getting under his wing to start some sort of turn -- wasn't too sure that would work or was a good idea since I couldn't communicate with him. Somehow he managed to get the a/c in about a 15 degree bank back out to sea. He was finally able to unzip a glove and the thing depressurized. We continued to fly in the damn things. Bob Rasmussen probably remembers this and that time.

Ray Donnelly

1048
For Cole Pierce. The problem I had on the cat shot that day you referenced was the APQ-83 radar scope housing was not bolted down. I had the scope hood in place went the cat fired, the hood hit my helmet visor and oxygen mask retention system (hardiman fitting). Fortunately, the wire bundle cable providing power to the scope was short enough to keep the assembly from hitting me, however, the scope assembly fell between my right leg and the stick. A few anxious moments getting it back in place and hand tightening a couple the mounting screws. It stayed in place during the trap. And oddly enough the thing worked the entire hop. Smacking that thing became an addition item on my check list every flight thereafter.

Mo Wright

1049
VF-62 was designated the test squadron (east coast) for the full pressure suit in the mid 60's. Jim, Don, Larie remember we flew a few gunnery patterns in the suite. We could not hear the guns firing nor turn our heads 90 degrees on the perch. After the flight we were soaking wet with sweat. One a/c gear retracted before lift off. Pilot reported that damn P-Suite caused the accident. We all went back to the stinky cloth flight suit.

Ron Knott

1050
Fun and games in a pressure suit; In February 1961, VF-132 night qualified on the Indy off of Norfolk wearing pressure suits. It was decided to do this due to the fact that we had no 'Poopy Suits', and the weather and water were too cold to risk going in in just a flight suit. I remember the inability to 'feel' the stick and throttle with any sensitivity, and the incredible light reflections on the inside of the helmet visor. We did O.K. though; No one got hurt OR wet.

Mike Denham

1051
For Mr. Mo Wright: here's a tidbit you may want to include in your APQ-83 radar scope story: the ultor voltage inside the APQ-83 scope was 4500 volts d.c. It could have ruined your whole day.

Randy Kelso
former AQF2
P.S. I hope the AQ who put you in that dangerous situation spent the remainder of his enlistment mess cooking.

1052
I was honored to be in VF-62 during the full pressure suit trial and fiasco. I say fiasco simply because each hop, to some degree, became a fiasco of sorts. These are some facts:

1. The suit cooling system (outside of the aircraft) required dry ice. Little or none was available at Cecil Field. So we sweated during the briefing and sloshed our way to the plane in the accumulated gallons of sweat that had gathered in our shoes. Once in the plane and the engine turning, the cooling air from the console vent was heavenly.

2. The freedom to view and transmit without an O2 mask was great. The drawback was the inability to use ones natural neck mobility and range of motion to do ACM and other activities.

3. Participated in about 10 Air-to-Air gunnery hops. Found that the O2 hose was way too short to allow proper visual tracking of the banner from the high perch position.

4. The pressure suit gloves allowed for "zero" feel of the stick. Sure, one could fly the plane but it sure wasn't the same touch one was used to.

Stew Seaman

1053
I flew with the full pressure suit as a nugget RP in VF-174 in 1962. We carried a cooling box with ice/water from ready room to the airplane to try to keep cool in the suit. The box tipped a bit and I flew the entire flight with cold water in my boots. Remember the pressure suit check vaguely. Think we leveled at 35K and gradually opened the cockpit side vent to get to 35K pressure altitude, then climbed some to make sure the suit pressurized. Remember it was very difficult with the suit pressurized to do much with the controls and throttle. After that check, I did the speed run at 40k to 1.65 Mach and zoom climb topping out about 61K. If you are thinking, what an exceptional memory I have, VF-174 recorded that info in your log book. After the that my chase instructor, Bill? Weeks, and I flew some formation above 50K. Don't remember any problems with control. My log-book recorded that I did this flight in a F8U-2N.

Later when deployed with VF-11, we had a locker room filled with pressure suits, but don't remember that I ever again flew in a full pressure suit. A few of the other pilots in the squadron might have flown in one. Think there might have been a requirement to fly some pilots in the suit to stay current.

When I came back to VF-174 as an IP, the full pressure suits were gone -- thank goodness.

Darryl "Specs" Stubbs

1054
During the 1963-64 deployment on the Midway, we - Det ALFA - used the full pressure suits since it was reported that the poopy suits at that time were not acceptable. One night, Ray Dunkin was scheduled to fly, and had his full pressure suit on. For whatever reason, the launch was delayed while he was in the cockpit. The came the urge to pee. Finally, after launch, he really had to go. He figured out how to get the suit partially unzipped, and took off one of his gloves, and peed into the glove. Not enough, took off the other glove and used that to. Now what do you do with two reasonably full gloves and it is time to trap? Figured out a way to jam the gloves somewhere in the cockpit, and trapped -- did not spill a drop. Handed the two full gloves to the PC, with a word of caution. Had hard time living that event down.

Scott Ruby

1055
Was fitted for suit at Norfolk in Nov 1959. Bob Cowles was in my group. They had to special order helmet for Bob because standard ring would not go around his head!

He was a great guy and we had a few forays onto Va Beach during the summer months.

Flew the suit off FDR CVA -42 beginning Feb 1960. I think I remember hearing that the suits costs $25,000 each. If you removed the helmet in the drink the collar was not designed to keep the water out!

New drying rooms were constructed on the FDR, which were not cheap. One more monumental waste of money.

We wore the suits when water temp required but after just few flights we reverted to plain ol' "poopy suits".

As to the zoom climbs, I can only remember getting up to 57-58,000 feet, with and without the pressure suits.

PJ Smith

1056
In 1964 at Iwakuni I was the assistant M.O., and as such I got a lot of the maintenance check rides in our RF8A's. Always having a lot fuel left after the check was completed, I tried a few climbs, although I didn't do the zoom climb. Usually I would be in the 1.1 to 1.2 range And just climbed until the burner blew out anywhere from 53000 to 58000. I think we had a P4 engine in that model. Although we were fitted with pressure suits when we got there, we never used them.

Different subject: I have several good F8 fotos that the guys would enjoy. Where do I send them?

John Sledge

1057
Zoom Climb. Reading all the interesting stories of climb attempts in the F-8, I did not see any mention of what was happening to the J-57. I seem to recall that you had to monitor the rpm and throttle back during the zoom to keep from over speeding the rpm. Does anyone remember what was happening to engine rpm and temp. during the zoom?

Sam Hubbard

1058
Speaking of the Grove, as Jim Brady did; brings back a lot of real fond memories. No one called to let me or the rest of our Squadron (VF-931) know we'd be on active duty in a month or so, the call came first by TV, where the call up announcement was read fairly early one morning. I listened and at first couldn't believe what I'd heard so called the Squadron Office at Willow Grove and it was confirmed. Report ASAP, was the word; so I called TWA where I was scheduled on an evening flight to Europe, left my roomie a note and took everything I owned and placed it in the trunk of my T-Bird and left for the Grove.

We were really welcomed at first, but then ten to fifteen hour days of burner takeoffs, high speed breaks and general all around problems started getting us lectures about being sent to live at a motel vs the BOQ and allowed to come on base only to fly our scheduled hops. Or maybe moved to another place on this earth as our neighbors weren't too happy either. Then another incident and another threat from the Base Skipper, we would promise to be good guys and that would work for a week or so until the last straw was the dismantling of the BOQ Bar of all the Squadron Plaques from Squadrons long gone or from places far from the Grove. Really, quite a nice collection. We had one day to get them back up and during that time orders came to move 'um out... We were heading for Cecil Field. I believe that was the first time that the call up started to seem really real. That being said, several of us got together in the first few weeks of the call up and called the Bureau stating we were ready to be sent to any squadron heading for NAM. There was a moment of silence on the other end of the line and then."ARE YOU GUYS SURE"! We said we were and he said he'd get back with us. The next day Op's and the Skipper corralled us and the ass chewing began. We were not to do that again, the Navy had split squadrons up on the previous call-up and it caused some real problems, not sure as to what, but it seemed splitting a squadron apart was not going to happen again. At least at this point in the call up. Besides that, it might put ideas in the pointy heads of those in the Bureau who were supposed to think of things like that on their own.

When the marching orders came, a day or so latter, a small group of us BOQ rats got together and made a stencil of a GRIFFIN (which was part of our Squadron FLAG), about one foot high. Found a couple cans of red spray paint and preceded after dark to paint a GRIFFIN on every building on the base, including the Front GLASS doors of the BOQ and GCA shack; our parting gift to the CO. He was a great guy, and looking back now, I, if given but a few minutes time to think about this act, would have gone back to my room with a glass of warm milk and gone to bed, but NO!!. I believe it was a really good thing we got the hell out of there the next day for Cecil, or Harry Henning, Stan Stevens, Jay Griffin and the rest would have been put in hack. The aircraft arrived at NAS Cecil where the Base CO and several of his colleagues were the welcoming committee and we were promptly told the FUBIJAR painted on each aircraft would be off those birds before the cock crowed the next morning. So much for Esprit de Corps... And how did an Active duty puke (CO) know what only us reserve puke's thought we knew. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Larie Clark

1059
Never flew in the pressure suit in the F8, but flew several in the F4 when an IP in Key West. Highest altitude I ever achieved was 73,000. Ballistic over the top with a/s indicator at about 80 knots. Didn't look outside at that juncture, but I did see the curvature of the earth passing 60K. Never missed that thing when they finally retired them.

As for high altitude in the Crusader, I tried once to top a thunderstorm between Oceana and Cecil Field at 52,000 and in (as I recollect) an F8U-2 (F8C) in A/B. I didn't top it. Burner blew out nearing 52K, and I got the heck and the crap shook and scared out of me. Fortunately I came out on the other side unscathed. Never attempted it again.

Doug White

1060
In 1961 I was with VU-7 flying the F-8A, FJ-4, JD-1 (UB-26J) F9F-8T and the SNB-5P. This was OK in the pre-NATOPS days but mostly I flew the F-8 and the JD.

I flew a lot of the F-8 maintenance test flights which called for a climb to 50,000 ft., reduce power to idle, descend to 48,000 ft. and jam accelerate to full power and time how long it took to reach full power. The limit was 60 sec and most of the time it took about 45 sec. On one flight the canopy seal failed at 50,000 ft when I reduced power to idle. Cabin alt went right to 50,000 ft and pressure breathing in the O2 system started but since it was good to only 42,000 ft it did nothing to keep me conscious.

Almost immediately I started losing my vision from the sides to the front and within about 10 sec I had blacked out. I had the presence of mind to go to full power, start a roll to the right and extend the speed brakes. I woke up at full power in a near vertical dive going through 28,000 ft at about 350 kt. My ear drums were none too happy having gone from a cabin alt some where in the 20,000 ft area, to 50,000 ft and back to around 15,000 in about 45 sec.

Jerry Kuechmann

1061
In 1959 VX-3 ran tests on the full pressure suit and high altitude operations of the F8U-1. Wearing the suit, I did a zoom climb to 71,200 feet. Fred Pester was the chase pilot. I suspect this to be a still-standing record.

The Crusader was a great fighter. I went on to be skipper of VF-194.

I loved the Crusader, but my favorite fighter of all was the F4U Corsair. I flew 15 different types of airplanes in the U.S. Navy and the Royal Navy.

Bill Conklin

1062
In 1963 I was in the VFP-63 photo det. We had some interesting flights enroute to Australia. Looking for and finding Islands in the middle of nowhere. We couldn't find one island that was covered on the maps being used by the USS Coral Sea. It was supposed to be the biggest one we were to take photos of, "Sand Island", we guessed that it had washed away. The interesting point to this tid-bit of a story, was that all we tasked to find, were all alleged to be plotted by the one and only "Capt. Cook" on his around the world trip way back in history.

To the high altitude story. Some one in high authority requested that our photo detachment be tasked to take pictures of the interior wall cloud walls of the typhoon that had formed south of our route to Cubi Point. Somehow I was volunteered to be the photo beenie and the XO of VF-154 to be the escort and finder of the "eye" of the typhoon. It sounded OK during the briefings, a very big eye and the maximum cloud height was briefed to be 35,000'. The launch and start of the cruise to the target was OK, but it became evident as we cruise climbed to 45K that the tops briefing was a bit off. At approximately 180nm from the eye we were cruise climbing through 52K and the tops were still above us. It was jointly agreed upon to do a gentle rudder turn as engine temps and stall shudders were a bit unnerving. My escort, "Little E" had a whole lot of comments for the weather guesser and the folks that originally scheduled this mission. Getting higher than that without a pressure suit in a F8U-1P with our very basic J-57 was interesting to say the least.

Dave "Flips" Burleigh

1063
Harry Blot and I went up after an AQM or BQM something or other that flew really high and really fast out of Hawaii when we were in VMF(AW)-232. I overtemped around 67,000 on the pitch up. Harry got the kill. Great scenery, dark sky and well defined curvature of the earth. I don't think we were wearing full pressure suits. Harry may recall more detail. That was small stuff for him as he later flew the rocked assisted F-104 to some sensational altitude.

Bruce Martin

1064
he NF-104 got me to 103,000 feet but that was what the airplane was designed to do. It had a pressurized cockpit and a reaction control system so that you could still have control when you were flamed out.

S/F,
Harry Blot

1065
I've been following the recent full-pressure suit discussions with interest because when I was in VF-142 and VF-132 from 1959-62 we were all fitted and ready to go. Our principle use of the suit was as a poopy-suit substitute. In 132 I made one zoom climb in a 2N which turned out to be a little unusual. In an effort to control EGT I came out of burner to idle at about 66K. EGT continued to rise so I shut the engine down. Then the fun started. When I was fitted, the laces were tight all around but there was excess material in the seat. When I strapped in for this flightI I forgot to cinch down my lap straps, consequently when the suit inflated my helmet and shoulders were forced up into the canopy with my feet off the rudders and barely reaching the stick and throttle with my fingertips. I floated over the top somewhere over 70K. I always rode with my seat full up and normally had only a couple of inches clearance below the canopy, so I was really jammed up. Everything stayed upright and I ended up going downhill pretty fast. I never lost the generator and relit going through 45K. An otherwise normal hop. We also wore the suits in the winter of 1962 during nite quals on Indy in Vacapes.

John Holm

1066
John Holm correctly remembers that the "Photo Beanies" were not usually escorted because most missions were usually in non-hostile areas.

However, in the same time frame that the U-2 was shot down over the USSR, I flew missions into Cold War countries mapping low level forward firing for the A4s who would be carrying NUKES into the heartland. I took on petrol in northern Greece from A4 tankers, On the way out I refueled from A3s.

More than once USAF radar would advise that I should expedite departure from the area because of bandits ...

I cannot believe that I was the only pilot that ever flew these missions, but I have yet to hear that others did.

Escorts were finally assigned after a Photo Pilot flew in to the water on a milky day in the Med!

That was after my time in the community.

The officer that briefed all these missions left the Navy and went to work for the CIA.

He was also around when I flew some covert Recce missions with my Skipper in early 1962. Years later I found a Navy Expeditionary Medal (CUBA) in my jacket. There were rogue CIA ops being conducted in Cuba during that time frame.

Skipper deceased, so is PI who briefed the Med missions and then joined the CIA.

Any help appreciated, it all happened!

P J Smith

1067
Responding to P. J. Smith's question about other cold war classified photo missions:

In the Med in the middle sixties there were others alone, unarmed and unafraid, old Pal, including myself (at least the alone and unarmed part).

Sensitivity was such that missions were initiated on the DOD level with very specific date, time and route specified. These strategic thinkers had no concept of daily flight operations or such exotic matters as deck cycles.

When a launch notice was received, only the ship's C.O. and Ops Officer had the "need to know" Not even the CAG was made aware of details for a mission. Consequently, as often as not air ops were not being conducted at the specified launch time. As Det OinC aboard FDR I naturally felt obliged to take all such missions. No escort was ever used, to my knowledge.

The ship would suddenly sound an unscheduled call to Flight Quarters, turn into the wind and launch a solo RF8, leaving an extremely curious crew that was destined never to know what the hell was afoot. I never refueled on a mission;, so, on return in about two hours Rosie would turn into the wind again, for one OK-3 Crusader trap.

By the way, to make up to the three junior pilots in the Det for my hogging all the fun, I offered to take ALL our scheduled night hops, few and far between as they were. Would you believe that the guys unanimously replied OK!

Mo Hayes

1068
I was kind of surprised to hear that the areas the RF-8s flew over were "non-hostile." There were several incidents of them taking hits and, as Jerry Mitchell writes, the time of the roving photo circuses immediately following the Gulf of Tonkin in August 1964 was decidedly dangerous and often met with a lot of attention from the guys on the ground.

Peter Mersky

1069
Mo, glad to hear that there were other such flights. Since I was not OINC I was totally unaware of how the flights were scheduled. The A4 tanker guys were always badgering me as to where I was going. The work was for the A4s and the A3s so at some time they would get to see the results (probably not, since they might only be used for the real thing). It also seems that the FDR was the carrier selected to get the job done??? Time frame was early 60s and early 61.

Apparently I was also making 'deeper penetrations' so I needed double tanking on some near 4 hour flights where AB was required for rapid exits.

Possibility that the flights that Skipper Winslow and I flew were also directed by the same people??

P J Smith

1070
Talk about screwed up, Washington directed missions, I was a division leader, VU-10, on a mission to provide top cover for the Bay of Pigs flights coming in from S. America. First we were to destroy some ground targets then get some altitude to intercept any bogies (T-33's and maybe an F-80 or two). When we got down to a certain fuel weight we were to land on the Essex (CVA-9), refuel, launch and return over head to continue as bomber support. Now keep in mind----only two of us in the flight of 8, had ever landing on a carrier outside of the training command!! We had been given two periods of FCLP's and even the LSO didn't know what we were training for. This whole operation was worked up by the CIA and our first inkling of what we were doing was when the CIA agent gave us a BRIEF briefing and assigned targets. Some where around 5 minutes before push-over on the targets, we got a emergency recall and were told to land and disperse the aircraft. On the way back I could hear the pilots of those bombers pleading for their fighter support. Five years later I received a metal for this non-action with no explanation of what it was for.

Stretch (later Lucky after a couple of ditchings)
Bill Query

1071
Jimmy Davis was VF211 XO/CO 1971-73. He was my XO in 1972 when he was shot down in Laos. Two Army Hueys got shot up and one Air Force A1shot down before the sun set, leaving Jimmy on the ground during the night. Finally got him out the next day (and the USAF pilot who was about a mile away). He always briefed us JOs to never go below the CAG-set 3000 feet on a strafing run. How did he get shot down? You guessed it: Low altitude strafing. Great guy, great leader, great squadron mate. Hate to hear of his misfortune. I am sending several pictures to the email address you provided.

Ed Brown

1072
Your comment about tagging all of Jimmy Davis's personal stuff for disposition to others reminds me of typical conversations in our squadron (VF-24--- 59-60 era) when suiting up for a flight ---- a squadron mate would lean over and whisper " if you don't come back can I have your locker"?. What fun to remember some of these gallows humor things.

Hank Smith

1073
Al Steinbrecher (Stonehead) went one step further than Kevin did to Jimmy Davis. When I had a ramp strike and was returned to the O-BOAT after about 20 minutes, Stonehead had already gone through my drawers and had a pair of my socks on.

Dave Woltz (Bluto)

1074
Re: Ramp speeds - According to NAVWEPS 01-45HHD-1, F8U-2N, F8U-2NE Flight Manual, at 18,000 lbs gross weight, approach speed = 127 knots (13 Units AOA), & increased to 140 knot IAS (13 Units AOA) at 22,000 pounds gross weight. I do not believe that there were many approaches at 18,000 lbs. as that was very close to empty weight.

Re: Launch speeds, one needs to speak with a "Shooter", but at every launch, as I looked at the IAS indicator at the end of the cat stroke, my IAS was 165 which enabled me to raise the gear and immediately lower the wing. These speeds were what I observed after being launched off CVA-41 and CVA-19 at 28,100 lbs gross weight in an RF-8A.

V/R, Roger Crim

1075
As I recall the catapult end speed was about 165 kts. The steam pressure was adjusted depending on takeoff weight to achieve the desired end speed. I am sure a Catapult officer can really square us away on that matter. The speed over the Ramp was based on angle of attack of 13.5 units, as I recall. That would give you varying airspeed, again dependent of weight! As an LSO we got pretty good at recognizing the correct angle of attack and the actual speed was a result of that angle of attack.

Usually between 132-126 kts, again, as I recall. I do recall that the max engaging speed for the Morest gear at Gitmo was 126 kts.

Jim Brady

1076
The RF-8G came aboard at 144 KIAS. Never looked at the airspeed on a cat shot until I had close to 200 KIAS and it was time to put the fuselage up. So far as training is concerned, they weren't overly successful in either case with me.

Bob Harrison

1077
I only flew the clean wing F8U-1E, but I remember 132 KIAS and 13 units A/A with 1500 lbs. of fuel - I think we were 19,500 lbs. empty.

I like what Bob said about pulling the fuselage up!

Rick Carlton

1078
As a cat officer on CVA-66, 1970-71, the standard catapult end-speed for which we set the steam pressure, based on ac gross weight and wind over deck, was 15 knots above minimum flying speed. Minimum flying speed was not stall speed, but a speed determined, as I remember, by test pilots/engineers at PAX River. We were allowed to go down to 10 knots above minimum flying speed without informing the pilot. Anything below 10 knots and the cat officer had to get acknowledgement from the pilot. We wrote the knots below 10 on a grease board and got a thumbs up from the pilot. I don't remember doing this routinely because catapult number 3 on the waist of America was a C-13 mod 1 (longer cat length than the other 3 cats) that could shoot an A-6 loaded with MK-82s no-wind or down-wind. The CO of America used the C-13 mod 1 waist cat to launch high gross A-6 and F-4 during other than routine cyclic ops to try to fool the bad guys' air defenses. Remember talking to some of the pilots that got that no-wind shot off the waist. They said it "hurt"

Darryl "Specs" Stubbs

1079
Several Squadron mates and I were shot off The SHANG while the ship was at anchor in the port of Genoa, Italy and the end speed was a -3 or -4 knots. The Shang had a kick anyway's, but its normal was bested that afternoon. I think Don Ressel was the lead, Stew Seaman and myself spent the night in Naples and Don brought us in for a great pass over CAPO. Often wondered how the residents handled all the noise; the tower always seemed to approve da higha speeda pass.

Larie Clark

1080
The recent post about landing speeds and catapult end speeds were very interesting. My comments: landing speed?? I don't think I ever saw a steady speed; I was either accelerating or decelerating on every pass. Cat end speed?? Who the hell had time to look? If you were flying you picked up the gear; if you were not flying, well, you picked up the gear! Referencing Darryl's comments about end speed: on the Roosevelt, on yankee station, in the summertime, C11 cats--Cat officer bangs on side of Crusader to get your attention, with large piece of chalk he scribes number on the deck to indicate knots above minimum speed you will receive; if you like it, off you go; don't like it, you are scrubbed. Least I ever took---5 kts!!---

Norm Green

1081
I was CO of VF 191 on Oriskany and Jig Dog was CCG-7. We had a very significant operation which delayed our departure for home. It was the Son Tay POW rescue plan. The Navy's role was to conduct a diversionary attack from the Gulf to focus attention away from the forces going in to rescue the POWS. We were joined by Ranger and Hancock. Pilots were only briefed on their specific mission and had no idea of the whole plan. It was the largest night operations of the whole war. Unfortunately the POWS had been taken out. Jig Dog was the Task Group Commander and VADM Bardshar was the CTF. A retired AF Officer wrote a book on the Navy's role. I will always remember what a wonderful person Jig Dog was and a truly great leader in Naval Aviation. There will never be another quite like him.

George Aitcheson

1082
I spent 3 years as cat officer on the Bon Homme Richard -- 65, 66, 67 -- most of the cat shots I made were in South East Asia during Vietnam. On hot days, no natural wind, ship at max. speed, end speeds could be as low as 5 knots for F8's to '0' for A-1's and Whales. During that time I made 10,000 plus accident free shots. Keep in mind we had very experienced and talented pilots. Oh yes -- never less that 10 knots for A-4 tankers.

Bill Query

1083
On a catapult, there is a device that measures catapult end speed. On C-13 cats, there is a three point system used to measure the end speed. It varies very little, plus or minus a knot normally. Cat officers use this data to help determine if the cat is working correctly. You have to remember, a catapult is basically stupid. All it cares about is how much do you weigh, and how fast you do you want to go when it lets loose. We launched an A6 off the waist who had forgotten to release his parking brake set during a temporary pause in the launch. The catapult did not care - he had flying speed when the cat let go. Left huge black streaks all the way down the deck. We launched a whale off the starboard bow cat -- goes off with about 720 psi of steam. About 20 feet or so down the stroke, the starboard hookup point sheared, and the bridle came off, whipped across the deck, going over the port side, fortunately missed the cat officer. sheared off the nose gear of the whale. end speed of the cat when the pistons hit the water brakes was over 300 knots. We think the whale was doing about 80 knots when it went in off the bow. Only the guy in back got out.

Scott Ruby

1084
Remembering Jig Dog: I was a brand-new nugget in VF-191 on Oriskany on Yankee Station when Jig Dog was CCG-7. He was frequently out on the flight deck in his PT gear between launches doing his walk/jog and just smiling at people. One fine sunny day, not long after I arrived onboard, I was scheduled for an ACM yo-yo against the CAG. I was strapping into my Crusader on the flight deck when Jig Dog came grinning up to the side of my airplane and said: "I hear you're going out to fight the CAG." I said "Yes, sir, I am." He grinned back and shot me one word: "CHEAT!" Of course, I loved it and started cooking up my plan to follow his orders. It was so impressive to a young JO to think that the Admiral was paying that kind of close attention to what each one of us was doing. Of course, I took his advice and it worked out pretty well, but I was low state coming back aboard. I never said a word about that and decided that I would either get that Crusader aboard on my first pass or find another line of work. Later on liberty in Singapore, the Ramages were staying at the Shangri-La where our squadron admin was. He and Ginger sat around the pool and drank Ramos Gin Fizzes with us and laughed and shared stories. Two classy people who knew what it was all about. We would have followed him anywhere.

Rich Redditt

1085
I think the following is basically correct - if not, I am sure someone will correct me. When I was at Subic 1973-75, the Commander of the 7th Air Force at Clark was MGen Leroy Manor, who I understood had been the "boss" of the SonTay mission. He had been C.O of one of the F-105 squadrons or the F-105 Wing in Vietnam (the Wing I think). In earlier years, Roy had grown up in "Black Ops" and the Special Forces organization at Eglin which is why he was selected to head up the Son Tay mission.

Roy went on to be a LtGen and Deputy CinCPac under ADM Weisner in 1976-79. He lives in a beach town in the Eglin area just down the road from Pensacola.

Don Shelton

1086
I was in the 7th Air Force command post while the Son Tay POW rescue operation was underway. Was trouble shooting the voice and keying circuit for Blue Chip's remote connection to Alley Cat, Moonbeam, Cricket and Scarborough. (That's what they make you do when you turn in your wings. :-) ) I recall orders going out to send in the Jolly Green Giants. Back in my regular office space about an hour later an army Captain said (with regard to the POWs) "We are all prisoners of war."

Bob Fritzius

1087
For Sam Hubbard's question a while back on engine performance on zoom climbs. During the 1969-1970 VF-162 cruise aboard Shangri La (with Skipper Mo Wright) we cycled our F-8Hs through Nippi for corrosion control/paint jobs. I was one of the pilots who picked up the planes.

On two different occasions, my test flight routine was to start South of Tokyo Bay at about 45,000 feet and head up toward the Bay coming down to 36,000 ft and running out to 1.7+ Mach, then ease up to 45 degrees up and coast up hill. I would come out of burner passing 55,000 ft (no problems with burner blow out as others have reported) and fly the engine temperature. I saw 70,000 + feet on both zooms - could see Japan, Korea, and the coast of Russia and it was black above like pictures from the space shuttle - a beautiful sight.

Earlier in VF-191 (with Skipper Jack Snyder), we picked up new F-8Es from the factory. On a flight out of Miramar I checked out how fast the new planes would go and got to about 1.84M before easing up to 45 degrees up to slow up - got above 55,000 feet with no engine problems. So with the F-8E and H models I found the engine performance solid on zoom climbs (same engine in both models).

Dick Martin

1088
Your input on oil cooler doors reminded me of our (VF-62) det deployment to Sigonella during the '63 Shang winter Med cruise. It was November and December. The weather was brilliant as it usually is in Italy that time of year. Some recollections follow that might need some tweaking after all these years.

At that time, NAF Sigonella was a not much there NATO base with the Italians in charge. It was also home port to one of the two U.S. patrol squadrons that were always operating in the Med. They worked for COMFAIRDMED under one of his three operational hats. So the tower both but the air controllers were all Italians used to P-2 operations. The patrol guys were also used to having their way with flight procedures, etc.

Now comes (Nov 6th, I believe) four brand new F-8E's led by the esteemed and consummate pilot-leader Hal Terry, who, apparently, knew the base ops officer from a previous life. So he says, "Let's show these guys something", requests a high speed pass from the tower and off we go, zooming around the field and oil cooler doors open. Then we landed smartly entering the standard break altitude at 450 Kts in echelon as usual. I say this only because later having the ops officer's approval we routinely came in at 600 knots around 500 feet in diamond formation. Yes, always with the oil cooler doors open. I believe that we gained ops approval from him over much discussion under the influence of his delightful hospitality shortly after we arrived.

After our first arrival, we are just getting our gear off and chatting with our support maintenance crew when this Navy Lt in flight suit arrives all bristling with indignation. He starts of with something like, "What the hell are you guys doing?" and "You can't come in here at that speed, . .." Stu Harrison, our senior ops present, takes him off to one side and tells us later that the guy wanted us to conform to P-2 speeds and procedures around the field, like 150 knots max in the break. When Stu told him that speed is what we come over the fence at gear and flaps down to land, he said the guys eyes got as big as saucers. Anyway, it was great to get off the Shang for awhile and you could see for it seemed like a 100 miles. VFR flying at its very best.

One instance I recall was a two plane flight with Stu Harrison leading. We took off from Sig in section and headed out to the Shang battle group somewhere in the Med. We were supposed to emulate ship or airborne launched weapons to strike surface ships in the battle group. The Shang was having its troubles keeping its operational gear up at the time. With the tacan responding intermittently and the exercise radio frequencies all screaming at a very loud scree-ee-ing sound the exercise was cancelled and we were ordered to RTB. I would guess that we were at about 25 to 30 K feet in basic engine somewhere about 50 - 60 miles off shore Sicily north of Stromboli, the smoking volcano, and it was so clear we could make out Sigonella. We checked in with air control. Next thing I hear is "Burner, now!" and scrambled to light off as I saw Stu's light up. Nice smooth, firm pushover and we were at M 1.3 in no time and crossed the beach heading South decending straight for the runway. All of a sudden about 30 - 40 miles out of Sig we hear an Italian voice that says something like, "Whoo-oo, Linfielda 2XX is thata you abouta 40 mila northa Sigonella? "Yes, was the response. Why?" Next came, "How fasta youa go-ine?" The reply, "1.3 Mach." And the response that I shall never forget in a totally excited and concerned way, "You betta switcha to a Sigonella tower freq _____ NOW OR YOU ARE GONNA GO RIGHTA BY!!"

One other amusing happening was the departure clearance air controllers kept trying us out with different procedures. We were building night familiarity with the Med that was new to most of us by flying cross county routes and returning to Sig for night landings and sometimes FCLPs. If I recall correctly, the Sig TACAN was located a short (3 Mi?) distance from the end of the runway. so they started giving us an outbound clearance of having to be at 10,000 feet or more crossing it before we could proceed easterly on our filed route to Greece or wherever. Someone got the brilliant ldea that instead of following radar clearances out and back to that point or departure routes, we could cross that point right off takeoff by keeping it in burner and the wing up. I don't recall if that included gear down. No matter, someone tried it and it worked. After all the Italians didn't require a speed minimum. I remember being a little nervous nugget for my first one, but after that it was a piece of cake.

As an aside, years later (1973) as a CDR on COMFAIRMED Staff, and working for/with AIRLANT, I had a lot to do with laying out the requirements, along with designing and developing the initial plans for turning Sig into the master Jet base it has become.

Jeez, I was up in Norfolk recently and found that COMNAVAIRLANT is now a two star billet that works nominally for a three star COMNAVAIRPAC. How the world has changed since we were in uniform.

Ron Hinkel

1089
In recent months I've had two inquiries about John Nichols' F-8 det (CVA-14/CVG-21) that went to Udorn in '72 to teach ACM to the blue suits. When somebody asked who was involved, I could only think of Merle Gorder. Pirate introduced us at a 1980s LACB. That was the same event when John stood with an arm on Billy Phillips' shoulder, watching the festivities, saying "CAG, what we see here is a couple of hundred memorial services that never occurred."

John said he was appalled at how the AF failed to appreciate the F-4's ACM potential, especially the vertical. It was all he could do to keep his studs from pegging the Obnoxious Meter at the O-club when they were supposed to be imparting knowledge. However, the 432nd emerged as a top MiG killing outfit, and one of the "students" was John Madden who, I believe, finished with three MiGs. The F8s wanted to go north but 7th AF wouldn't permit it unless they bore SEA camouflage to avoid confusion with 21s. John thought it would add too much weight so no go...

Any recollections of the Thailand det would interest many 'sader folks. For instance, apart from the other pilots, how many maintainers went, and for how long?

Barrett Tillman

1090
This is in response to Barrett Tillman's request for info on the Udorn detachment.

The F8 detachment to Udorn in '72 was from Hancock (CVA-19/CVW-21). I was the CO of Hancock at the time. We did not have a flag embarked.

We were scheduled for a short stay on Dixie Station when Hutch Cooper, CTF-77, asked me to send four F8's to Udorn to assist the Air Force. John Nichols, was a squadron XO (VF-211, I think) and designated as the O-in-C. Boyd Repsher was on the team and I have forgotten the others. Hutch told me that this idea to assist the Air Force came up in conversations he had in Saigon with the Air Force. He never said whose idea it was or whether this help was offered or requested.

As I recall, we sent four planes and four pilots. The Det stayed in Udorn for 10 days to two weeks. I don't remember how many maintainers we sent but as I recall it was not very many and I questioned the CAG if we were sending enough.

There were a number of great stories when they returned to Hancock. I know they helped the Air Force a great deal. One Air Force pilot later wrote a book about his tour at Udorn and praised the Navy pilots' tactical skills and aggressiveness crediting them with improving Air Force tactics.

Jack Monger

1091
WRT John Nichol's ACM det to Thailand in 72 ( from HANCOCK - CVA-19)...my recollection is that Pirate took two pilots & two F-8Js each from Vf-211 and VF-24. I know that Phil Colson was one from 211, and I think Boyd "Sheepdog" Repsher was the other. Not sure else who John took from 24. Everything I heard upon their return to Hanna was just as Barrett describes. As for maintainers, I know it was "bare bones", but can't shed any more light on that aspect.

Kevin Dwyer

1092
One dark nite on Shang's platform John Nicols watched the Ford LSO try to get a must-pump aboard. The JO had gas for one more pass -- and boltered. The stud lit the burner and pulled vertical until nearly out of sight. Pirate observed, "Now, an F4D with 50 lbs of fuel on board has a spectacular rate of climb." The pilot ejected overhead the ship since it was outta gas, nobody could tell where the jet was going. John said, "Hell, I wouldn't know which way to run." The other wavers concurred in that assessment so he said they spent the next coupla minutes discussing the events of the day. Pilot was recovered but apparently nobody knew where the jet alit.

(I checked one of my favorite sites, "Project Get Out and Walk," but the Ford ejection data is mostly incomplete. Lots of 'sader stuff tho.)

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/0000/AT.htm

Barrett Tillman

1093
Many are penning kudos to good ole John Nichols; so here is my best recollection.

I was Air Wig ONE LSO in 1961 when CAG George Talley and company was directed to shake down the brand new USS Enterprise. VF-11 was transitioning to the F8E at Cecil; so, VF62 took their place for the cruise to Gitmo anda few weeks of VACAPES ops.

Having lost my Crusader ride, then Skipper Joe Moorer graciously allowed me to fly with his squadron. Pirate, Smooth 1 and others were very hospitable. As squadron LSO, Nic was on the platform with me for many hours. That was the origin of our friendship.

After a gap of about seven years we were reunited in Saigon. I was Chief Staff Officer for Seventh Fleet Det Charlie at Thon Son Nhut AFB (7th Air Force HQ) when John got orders to depart his ship by COD to Cubi, eventually to Naval War College, I think.

Anyway, He manned an F8 for his last combat mission, and the Tower ordered him to replace the photo escort, who had downed his bird. Disappointed, but with a cheery aye, aye, our pal launched on what was to be a flight into the record books.

He splashed the rotten, sorry Mig that foolishly attempted to down an RF-8. That afternoon the hero was sent to Saigon by COD to appear on the Five O'clock Follies, a daily press briefing attended by all the war correspondents and other pinko-liberals in Saigon.

After the show and tell John spent the night with us in the Det Charlie Lounge. We spent most of the night sipping vodka, eating popcorn and re-living his exciting event earlier in the day.

During our talk John expressed sympathy for the Mig pilot whom he had dispatched. He commented "I felt a bit like I was murdering the guy as I slid behind and hosed him with 20 mike mike. Those remarks expressed a quality of humanity that I will always remember from my friend Nic.

Mo Hayes

1094
Nick and I were LSOs in the Cecil F-8 RAG (VF-174) and were having a particularly tough time getting a Nugget aboard one night, and the Air Boss was up in arms since we were running out of Sea room.

If things weren't bad enough, the Talker was brand new.

After the third or fourth bolter, the Talker yelled up that Primary "wants to know what the problem is?" John, who was waving, answered with words to the affect that "'Cause the F---ing hook is missing the F---ing wire!" I looked down and could see the Talker mouthing those exact words to his Tower counterpart!

Needless to say, John's first stop after the recovery was a personal appearance in PriFly.

There were few dull moments when Pirate was around, God Bless him!

Norm Gandia

1095
Barrett's Story about Pirate on the Platform with the F4D that climbed straight up until it flamed out and then the pilot ejected brought back the night that our XO at the time and good friend, Hal Terry, was coming aboard the Shang on a black ass night, as we came through the straights of Gibraltar to enter the Med on our 1964/54 cruise. I was on the platform with Ensign Jensen. Carl, as CAG LSO was waiving this recovery because we had 50 kts. of wind over the deck and the burble was fierce. The F8's were always first to trap because of the deck layout and fuel considerations.

Hal was a very consistent OK-3 performer, so as I wrote the comments from Carl, I was not too concerned when Hal called the ball. I don't recall his exact state but he had plenty of fuel. The deck was pretty steady although the sea state was 20 feet, but the period of the waves was such that the deck wasn't moving too badly. The wind and burble were really bad and everyone on the platform knew it was going to be a challenging night. Hal's approach was, as usual, right down the pipe, but as he got about 200 yards aft of the ship, he got into some serious burble and wings began to rock back and forth. He was now in too close to waive off and he was still on the slope but we didn't realize he had lost his PC2 power and the roll stab system. Ergo the wing rocking! As he came over the ramp his wing rock got worse and he touched down hard on one the right main mount. I say that from memory but it was the main strut that held the PC1 reservoir, I think the right main. It hydrauliced and exploded like a 5 inch round. Hal hit afterburner and got his nose up before the complete failure of the flight controls due to the loss of both PC! And PC2.

The stick froze and Hal punched out still in the moon glow lights. He did a forward somersault and the chute opened cleanly. He drifted back along the port side and about the time he got to the LSO platform he went into those 20 foot waves. We were really scared for him with that wind and sea state.

In the meantime, the aircraft that he had just exited, was trimmed nose up and was still in burner. It began a series of hammer heads over the ship. it would fall off on a wing and then the burner and trim would recover it and it would repeat the hammer head all over again. This was, without a doubt one of the strangest sensations I have had around the ship. it was somehow very weird and scary to think of that pilotless Crusader up there by itself and flying around making these repeated maneuvers with no one at the controls. This went on for what seemed like 10 minutes but was probably more like five. The burner finally exhausted the fuel and the bird entered a spin of the starboard, stern quarter and went in with a flash and was gone.

Hal was rescued by a Navy Seal on the plane guard destroyer after a very close brush with death, but that is another story.

Jim Brady

1096
John Nichols.

I may be confusing a coupla stories, but recall that Pirate was CAG Talley's dash two on the 65 boat's first CQ evolution. CAG got a waveoff, and John said he sat there with the ball nailed in the middle. He was almost tasting the inevitable cake when The Voice of Authority reverberated in his ears: "Don't ... you ... DARE!" He allowed as how he thought pretty hard about it for a second or two...

Ref. Mo's reflections on John's MiG kill, 9 July 68. John said that back-channel intel became available, saying the 17 driver had c. 400+ hrs total time and about 250 in type. More recently the name has become known: a 26-year-old 1st Lt. which I infer is/was different than a Sr. Lt. At the time Pirate had about 2,000 in saders, and of course he became one of 5 to survive 3 grand. He remarked that sometimes he thought about trying to write the pilot's family, which sorta surprised me because he was such a mission-oriented sort, and he had those predator eyes that I've only seen on a couple of other aviators, including Robert L. Scott.

IIRC before the MiG kill John had been off the boat, maybe for hernia treatment. IIRC he came back, flew one hop and got the glory. He said he was shaving when his roomie Bob "The Original Maverick" McDonough walked in. John continued shaving & humming, "Hey, Mav." Bob sat on his bunk, glared at The Pirate, and said, "Youuuu sonofabitch." Undeterred, John asked, "How's it goin' Bob?" "Youuuu sonofabitch ..." "Want to get a slider?" "Youuuu sonofabitch ..." Apparently that was their last discourse before Pirate went to Saigon.

Norm's contribution has a post script. If I'm remembering correctly (a standard caution anymore), Buzz Jewell experienced a similar incident when his talker dutifully repeated the comment, "The captain doesn't have the effing wind down the effing angle." Upon return from the bridge, he gloomed "I lost, three Effs to two!"

Barrett Tillman
19 August 2012

1097
Diamond Jim Brady's story of CDR Terry's ride was "right on"!! I was watching the recovery up in vulture's row when CDR Terry's strut exploded. There was so much light from the flames and afterburner that I couldn't tell that CDR Terry had ejected. As the old F8 kept doing it's lauwangs it would appear to dive right at the Shang and then at about 1000' begin again to climb in burner and then enter another hammerhead stall. As I recall, our flight surgeon was standing next to me and on one of the dives he rapidly headed inside the island screaming something to the effect that "the son-of-abitch" is going to kill us all! I noticed later that I had fingernail scratches on my neck, left by the doc during his rapid exit! Those were fun days in the early '60s with VF-13 & VF-62 aboard the old Shangri-la!

Harry Henning

1098
VF-13's Skipper Jim Foster's bad cat shot during our flyoff to NAS Cecil, JAX, upon our return to CONUS following the '64-'65 Med Cruise: CAG had just launched off the Starb'd cat and CDR Foster was launching from the Port. I was next to go from the Port cat and as I watched CDR Foster's shot, I could tell it was very weak, but he was unable to stop, even with the brakes locked up! As the nose gear dropped over the bow and CD Foster's F8 tipped over fwd and fell overboard, my gut said "so long Skipper"!!! As I recall, CDR Foster's telling of what transpired following the cold catshot; he fell into the water fairly "gently" with the canopy still in place. With the cockpit submersed, CDR Foster's F8 scraped along the Port side of Shangri-la, some light was still visible to JIM, but was getting dimmer and water was filling the cockpit and was up to his left shoulder. Giving thought to the possibility of a "ride through the Shang's propellers", "Stray Voltage" (our pet name for CDR Foster given to him by our Squadron LSO, Jim Matheny) pulled the face curtain!!! Through the canopy CRD Foster ejected underwater!!! Emerging from the water, like a Poseidon? missile, Jim ricocheted off the Port fwd sponson and hit the water, with his parachute deployed but not open, about 100 yds to port! The rescue helo was on scene immediately and picked CDR Foster up. In short order, and with much activity going on, CDR Foster was back on deck! With wild eyes wide open and soaking wet, CRD Foster was banging on the side of, first Bob Grammer's and then on my airplane, to get out, so he could make the flyoff!!! It was understandable, it had been a long cruise, but, even for the Skipper, nobody was willing to give up their early ride home "to see mama"!!! The Corpsmen finally subdued Jim, put him in a Stokes stretcher and took him to sickbay for a shot of medicinal brandy! The slow flyoff continued; with the good feeling that Skipper Foster had survived his ordeal! Those were the days, my friends, weren't they???!!!

Harry Henning

1099
Jim Foster and the '65 Shang fly-off:
Had a ring-side seat in the F8 spotted behind the port blast deflector. Fly-off Leader CAG Tom Hayward was launched off the starboard cat before VF-13 Skipper Foster did his thing. He shouldn't have logged any flight time, 'cause the port cat simply pulled AK-101 off the pointy end. We were a zip-lip AirWing and had completed a 9-monther without broadcasting on primary. No one came up when Jim when in the water. He actually ricocheted off the port bow of the ship when he ejected and the helo was on him immediately. Some well-meaning Yellow Shirt was signaling me to taxi forward onto the cat, but my brakes were locked tighter than an Academy Ring-Twisters knuckles. The helo deposited a dripping Foster in the middle of the deck near flight deck control. Since we were the Red-Tails, he had personally supervised the dyeing of our brown flight suits red. The water running off him looked more like blood than salt water. He did, in fact, go immediately to Bob Grammar's F8, which was sitting directly behind me and start banging on the side. I didn't hear it, but I understand the Air Boss called for someone to get than "........" off the flight deck. I saw a white-shirted Medic grab him and forceable shove him into the island.

We finally completed the then-one cat launch, rendezvoused, and headed for JAX. Not a single transmission had been made on primary and CAG Hayward was not aware that Fearsome One had gone in the drink! After we parked at Cecil, Jo Foster was running through the crowd searching for her husband. Someone finally told CAG what had happened and all hell broke loose. Fortunately, the Shang had launched the COD, with Jim Foster aboard, at the end of the flyoff. The COD taxied in, the still wet FearSome One jumped out, and the rest is some of the most fantastic true-life history ever written for Naval Carrier Aviation.

V/R Brown Bear

1100

I was also lined behind Brown Bear for the port cat. What I saw after our skipper's swan dive made me laugh into my mask. The port cat yellow shirt gave Brown Bear the come ahead; I'm thinking I'm not getting on that cat. Brown Bear shakes his head "no." The yellow shirt doesn't get the picture and starts giving the come ahead again. More shaking of the head. I'm really laughing now. The yellow shirt starts giving the come ahead very big and very emphatically. I can only imagine the sailor thoughts racing through his mind. Dick continues calmly shaking no. The yellows shirt finally shrugs his shoulders and goes to talk to his boss, cussing the damn pilot, I'm sure. Funny.

Larry Durbin

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